Trinity Verse Removed?

[Curtis]

Actually we do start by faith:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

you forgot something. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. You can not have faith in God until he gives you faith to believe in him which comes by his Word who happens to be God!!

 

[B-A-C]

Good morning BAC. For the most part, modalists and myself would agree to disagree.

Maybe a thread about modalism is in order. But again, for the "vast" majority of mainstream Christianity, it is a requirement for
salvation.

Try reading the statements of faith for various denominations sometime. It can be enlightening.
Baptists, Southern Baptists, Episcopalians, 7th Day Adventists, Wesleyans, Methodists, Assembly of God, Vineyard, Church of Church, Anglican, Presbyterian, Foursquare, Lutheran ELCA, Lutheran Mo Synod, ( I will include the Roman Catholics here also), Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox,
... all believe in the Trinity and deity of Jesus. (some of these have branched off into "oneness" churches, but the name of the church is changed slightly in these cases)

While many of their websites tend to be politically correct, and non-offending. They all say this belief is required for salvation.
I admit, non of them have the statement "you are going straight to hell lock, stock and barrel". But if you aren't saved,
there aren't a lot of alternatives.

I copied this definition from a website that defined modalism the way I've always interpreted it. Feel free to let me know if this is wrong.

Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.

 

[B-A-C]

Actually we do start by faith:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

Yes, believing that God "is" is a requirement. Who do you believe that God is? Is Jesus your God?

 

[Curtis]

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were all active during Jesus's life on earth. God the Father was in Jesus reconciling the world unto himself, Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, and anointed with the Holy Spirit. In Jesus lives, and dwells all the fullness of the Godhead. Father Son, Holy Spirit. Jesus is God's body

 

[B-A-C]

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were all active during Jesus's life on earth. God the Father was in Jesus reconciling the world unto himself, Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, and anointed with the Holy Spirit. In Jesus lives, and dwells all the fullness of the Godhead. Father Son, Holy Spirit. Jesus is God's body

John 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Rev 3:21; 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

 

[amadeus2]

you forgot something. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. You can not have faith in God until he gives you faith to believe in him which comes by his Word who happens to be God!!

I quoted that in one of my earlier posts. You left out something important: "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing cometh by the Word of God". No one can see or hear spiritually without the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, the Bible is a dead book. It is the Holy Spirit within people that bring it to Life making it the World of God.

 

[amadeus2]

What do you suppose God feeds those who are hungry, and thirsty? He feeds them his Word. You can read the bible your entire life and never get anything out of it until you know the truth. As Jesus once said, "Every time the Word is sown, and if it is not understood, Satan steals the Word" Understanding is a part knowing. Knowing the truth is the only way to get set free. truth alone has never set anyone free.

You never get anything "good" out the Bible without the Holy Spirit. This is why people reading the scripture with the wrong spirit for the wrong purpose such as an atheist receive nothing from it. Even believers who read for the wrong purpose [such as trying to prove their point] also read at times without understanding. Reading dead words gives us no Life.

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." John 6:53-56

What is the flesh of Jesus but the scriptures themselves, but we must also drink his Blood. Why is this?

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Lev 17:11

But that is the Old Testament explaining things as types or shadows of reality. The real blood of Jesus is the Life giving Holy Spirit as we see here:

" [God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth Life." II Cor 3:6

 

[amadeus2]

There are so many verses that point to the trinity. If you don't grasp how three can be one. Forget it. Just think about One all the time.

If someone was born outside of a Trinitarian church group or a carnal family that believed and followed a Trinitarian doctrine, would it be so simple as that? My own family was Trinitarian Catholic, but not one of them even made an effort to serve God as a Catholic, but me alone. As a Catholic growing up I never learned to read the Bible. I never even owned a Bible. Then at the age of 32 [1976] when I was serving no one and my marriage was on the brink of failure I recalled a family who was living for God, the only one like them I had ever met. To this day I have never met another family living so close to God as they were doing 24/7. My wife and I with two toddler children were interested in saving our marriage. We called that family we had not seen in months and we asked them if they could take us to their "church". They were Oneness Jesus Only Pentecostals. All of the Trinitarians I knew at the time were in the barrooms serving themselves another drink of an alcoholic beverage.

Were the Oneness people all I thought they were? No, they turned out to be fallible people, but they read the Bible and worked at serving God. After 11 years we left our last Oneness assembly, not in favor of another assembly, but in favor of God [1987]. We began attending a small nondenominational assemble that was neither Oneness nor Trinitarian. For many years I visited many churches looking for brothers who wanted to fellowship and discuss the things of God. It was a rare thing to find one any where who wanted to talk about God even inside their church building at a meeting time. Outside of their building when it was not meeting time they were fewer than rare. Most of them were Trinitarian of one kind or the other, but the whole mess reminds of the children of Israel in wilderness who died without ever entering the Promised Land. There are fewer like Caleb and Joshua in my experience today than there were then.

I know there are a few better places, but in spite of there being dozens of buildings in every city bearing the names of Christian groups the better places are not easy to find. Where are the Christians who are following Jesus and are seeking the Kingdom and righteousness of God first [Matt 6:33]? According to the census records more than 80% of the U.S. population is Christian, but where are they? What is it they are seeking first? Have they for the most part lost their first love if they ever had it [II Thess 2:10-11] ? Are they now for the most part deluded?

God came to earth and became the Son of man. God is our comforter, as the Holy Spirit. God is our Father.

The heresy is to imply Jesus is not God. IE Some unlucky fella who died for others sins. Or some mad person who claimed to be God and died for it. Both beliefs require so much ignorance to the gospels and records of Jesus.

I am really glad you believe in God and I presume that you are not apparently walking in delusion, but so many could care less what I believe or do not believe... unless they think they might add me to their numbers and get a feather in their cap for their efforts. Consider what Jesus said about proselytizing:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matt 23:15

Heresy? I read my Bible and talk to God everyday and try to keep my mind on Him all of the time... although I certainly miss the mark at times. [Am I missing it now with this conversation?] Oh, I know that what I do or don't do matters very little or not at all to so many because I refuse to embrace the doctrines they hold simply based on their 'say so'. There are a few among believers who can support their beliefs with scripture but most pew sitters would be comfortable with almost any with people who did not ask too many question or talk about God too much.

I must be a heretic because I am searching and hoping to grow closer to God, but I am not yet where all of you are. Is that how it works?

God made a plan for mankind to be with Him which involved Him laying His life down for His creation. Because that is what a loving Father will do for His children.

The devil wants to ROB mankind of this love and truth. It makes those who know it, extremely upset. I cannot tell you how frustrated and saddened I am to hear anyone refer to Jesus as a prophet.

Am I really a devil or as a devil or under the control of the devil in the eyes of you and others here because of this issue when none of you really knows or seemingly really cares what I believe?

 

[KingJ]

Am I really a devil or as a devil or under the control of the devil in the eyes of you and others here because of this issue when none of you really knows or seemingly really cares what I believe?

There was a time when I thought of Jesus as a separate being from God. Like a literal son. I saw the trinity as ''mum and dad = parents''.

But then I studied scripture more / rationalized scripture and became fully convinced that Jesus is literally God.

Think about this:

1. How can God unite us with Himself if it is not He who lay His life down for us?
2. How can a God who tells us that He is the very definition of love, be unwilling to show the greatest act of love?

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not know love, does not know God, because God is love.
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then you must also by default believe that God is not the epitome of 'love'.

 

[Shutterbug]

Maybe a thread about modalism is in order. But again, for the "vast" majority of mainstream Christianity, it is a requirement for
salvation.

Try reading the statements of faith for various denominations sometime. It can be enlightening.
Baptists, Southern Baptists, Episcopalians, 7th Day Adventists, Wesleyans, Methodists, Assembly of God, Vineyard, Church of Church, Anglican, Presbyterian, Foursquare, Lutheran ELCA, Lutheran Mo Synod, ( I will include the Roman Catholics here also), Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox,
... all believe in the Trinity and deity of Jesus. (some of these have branched off into "oneness" churches, but the name of the church is changed slightly in these cases)

While many of their websites tend to be politically correct, and non-offending. They all say this belief is required for salvation.
I admit, non of them have the statement "you are going straight to hell lock, stock and barrel". But if you aren't saved,
there aren't a lot of alternatives.

I copied this definition from a website that defined modalism the way I've always interpreted it. Feel free to let me know if this is wrong.

Good morning BAC;
That sums up the overall view of modalists. Of the three, only the Father exists; the others do not as they are roles. To my walnut, this is not what the Bible teaches nor have I ever been taught that. One chap who was somewhat beligerent went so far as to say that God left His throne and became a human. OK, but then he goes on to say that his flesh was separate from the Spirit. My purpose is not to drag this out, but highlight some of the conversations I've had regarding the nature of God. Cheers.

 

[Shutterbug]

Do you see me arguing for some particular doctrine of men? I do not stand with what men call modalism or sabellianism or any other "ism". At one time perhaps I did, but look to my posts and my statements. What I stand for is God's truth, wherever it is and whatever it is. We know [yes, know] that Truth is Jesus [John 14:6], but how clearly and well do we know Jesus? Remember what Jesus said in this regard:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:21-23

It certainly sounds to me like it is very important to know what the Father's will is and to do it. There is no mention there about the need to know exactly what God is or is not in the way of a oneness or a trinity or a godhead. God will gives us what we need if we are doing what He wants us to do? Does He wants to spend our time searching for a better explanation of the oneness or the trinity of the essence of the godhead?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

Good morning Amadeus;
No argument from me. I fully agree our purpose is to do our heavenly Father's will. I truly believe that it will be what separates the sheep from the goats on Judgement Day. Cheers.

 

[amadeus2]

There was a time when I thought of Jesus as a separate being from God. Like a literal son. I saw the trinity as ''mum and dad = parents''.

But then I studied scripture more / rationalized scripture and became fully convinced that Jesus is literally God.

Think about this:

1. How can God unite us with Himself if it is not He who lay His life down for us?
2. How can a God who tells us that He is the very definition of love, be unwilling to show the greatest act of love?

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not know love, does not know God, because God is love.
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then you must also by default believe that God is not the epitome of 'love'.

Thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately few are really interested in seeking God's truth no matter what it would require of them. They too often seize on a difference they see in me or in someone else and then move to convert me or that someone else to what they believe.

I do believe that Jesus is God, but I do not believe in the Trinity. I am NOT into Oneness Jesus Only anymore.

 

[amadeus2]

Good morning Amadeus;
No argument from me. I fully agree our purpose is to do our heavenly Father's will. I truly believe that it will be what separates the sheep from the goats on Judgement Day. Cheers.

I am glad to find that someone here agrees with me in our purpose without regard to where we may be the moment in doctrines.

 

[B-A-C]

Rom 10:9; that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

What is the word "Lord" in this verse?

κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
Total KJV occurrences: 748

 

[Curtis]

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

If Jesus is not God then he would not be Lord. Thomas got it right. Anyone who knows God would already know this because Jesus reveals himself to those who love him.

 

[Curtis]

I do believe that Jesus is God, but I do not believe in the Trinity.

Brother who do you believe in, Jesus, or God the Father? Jesus is not God the Father neither is God the Father Jesus, neither is God the Holy Spirit, Jesus or the Father yet they are "distinct" from each other, and one. Which one do you prefer? Do you worship God the Father or Jesus? Would God be God if any one of the three were missing?

 

[amadeus2]

Brother who do you believe in, Jesus, or God the Father? Jesus is not God the Father neither is God the Father Jesus, neither is God the Holy Spirit, Jesus or the Father yet they are "distinct" from each other, and one. Which one do you prefer? Do you worship God the Father or Jesus? Would God be God if any one of the three were missing?

If you knew how many times I have gone through hundreds of scriptures on all these things over a period of decades with more people on than I can remember you might have a clue as to how tired I am of hearing the same questions and answers and scriptures repeated by so many.

My purpose in posting to this thread in the first place was to help a muslim to understand. Perhaps after seeing the internal conflict presented on this thread he is gone by now. People are more interested it seems in winning a battle than in winning a soul. Help us dear Lord!

You along with others want to insist that I read and accept your words, but how much consideration has been given to mine? Actually neither your words nor mine mean a thing if they disagree with God.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

 

[B-A-C]

My purpose in posting to this thread in the first place was to help a muslim to understand. Perhaps after seeing the internal conflict presented on this thread he is gone by now. People are more interested it seems in winning a battle than in winning a soul. Help us dear Lord!

Winning a soul for which god? Calling yourself a Christian... and then telling people to follow another god is
probably the worst heresy of the Bible. Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses have outreach programs also.
Unfortunately the people they are "saving" are now following the same false god(s) they are.

This kind of teaching cannot be allowed on the Christian forum like this.

Amadeus.. I don't know your real name. You seem like a really nice guy. You have some wisdom. You even know the Bible quite
a bit it seems. I don't have anything against you personally. I don't even have any reason to.

But you aren't saved. If God judges me for saying that.. so be it. I take responsibility for it.
You are following another god. Why should we let a non-Christian give advice to a Muslim about Christianity?
Why would we even let you represent us?

Muslims already believe ina non-trinitarian god, and don't believe in the deity of Jesus.
What's the different between your god and their god?

 

[amadeus2]

Winning a soul for which god? Calling yourself a Christian... and then telling people to follow another god is
probably the worst heresy of the Bible. Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses have outreach programs also.
Unfortunately the people they are "saving" are now following the same false god(s) they are.

This kind of teaching cannot be allowed on the Christian forum like this.

Amadeus.. I don't know your real name. You seem like a really nice guy. You have some wisdom. You even know the Bible quite
a bit it seems. I don't have anything against you personally. I don't even have any reason to.

But you aren't saved. If God judges me for saying that.. so be it. I take responsibility for it.
You are following another god. Why should we let a non-Christian give advice to a Muslim about Christianity?
Why would we even let you represent us?

Muslims already believe ina non-trinitarian god, and don't believe in the deity of Jesus.
What's the different between your god and their god?

Well then at least one last farewell post.
My friend, I am nothing, but if it means anything
g at all to anyone I strive to live for God 24/7. I surrender to God daily and really do try to place myself in the "lowest room" each time I touch God. I have lived this way for years. There is nothing more important in my life than God. You say I don't line up so I guess I am gone from here. The most important thing is supposed to be Love, Love for God and love for our neighbor:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt 22:37-40

Who is my neighbor?

"And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise." Luke 10:30-37

Where in the two greatest commandments do we find the trinity?

So then will you take the responsibility on yourself as you have said based on something which even the honest Trinitarians admit is unclear? Would not the following scripture apply even if you were correct... which of course you are not, at as I see it.

If you were going to commit yourself to such a judgment against a person, why not based on something that is clear and something for which you really had the authority. You are not a moderator or an administrator, but I suppose they would side with you except possibly for my one old friend among the mods from prior to this forum. But then according to you this is heresy although you would be hard pressed to show that by scripture, wouldn't you?

"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matt 7:1-2

Farewell to my friends!
Give God the glory!

 

[B-A-C]

Where in the two greatest commandments do we find the trinity?

You answered this yourself.

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

I don't think you should leave these forums.