Searchingtoo
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Don't know what the point of that was. Is says exactly what I quoted. I also know how to find things on the web.
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SignUp Now!Don't know what the point of that was. Is says exactly what I quoted. I also know how to find things on the web.
Of course Wallace wouldn't understand it because it disagrees with what he's pushing - the same reason that trinitarian bibles say "the word was God".No. And I believe any well-educated Bible scholar would not agree either.
The use of the definite article ("the") in Koine Greek is one of the most perplexing issues in translation. Even Dr. Daniel Wallace of (the) Dallas Theological Seminary has stated in lecture that he still doesn't understand its application, after decades of reading Greek.
As a modern example, the Brits say, "I'm going to hospital," while the Yanks say, "I'm going to the hospital." What's the difference? None. It's parlance, or metre, or cultural colloquialism, an adaptation of style similar to a "linguistic accent." To now make some kind of supernatural or divine insight out of this is... a bit delusional. It stretches credulity. Oh I get the desire and the attempt to ferret out rules within linguistic expression, but who here hasn't ended a sentence with a preposition?
Rhema
Although you likely know this, I just wanted to mention that there is no Indefinite Article in Greek. The word "a" just isn't in the language. English differentiates between "a" (thing) and "the" (thing), but how can one make such a differentiation if both words aren't available?
I don't know what your point is with this.I shall see your Coptic to English translation, and raise you the Aramaic.
ܒܪܫܝܬ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܡܠܬܐ ܘܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܠܘܬ ܐܠܗܐ ܘܐܠܗܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ1 In the beginning there was The Miltha {The Word}, and He, The Miltha {The Word}, was with Alaha {God}. And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}.
Rhema
( Let them figure out that colloquialism .... )
How about this one?I shall see your Coptic to English translation, and raise you the Aramaic.
ܒܪܫܝܬ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܡܠܬܐ ܘܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܠܘܬ ܐܠܗܐ ܘܐܠܗܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ1 In the beginning there was The Miltha {The Word}, and He, The Miltha {The Word}, was with Alaha {God}. And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}.
Rhema
( Let them figure out that colloquialism .... )
I wonder that too, but also wonder if they would want to crawl back in their graves if they could see the world today. Even my grandparents that died a mere 40 years ago would be shocked and for sure would think the end is in sight.Greetings all,
One might wonder what the early Church folk/members would have thought, listening to [or reading] all the dialogue that goes on today.
Everyone being experts about them.
I wonder if they would be glad we have it right or would shake their heads in dis-blief or even laugh... or cry.
I wonder what our Father thinks?
Post in peace
Bless you ....><>
Why do you marvel at the fact that God’s Word was with him and is him? My word is with me and my word is me. When you speak and people hear you, they will know that the word they heard is you.So you think I'm confused? That's funny. Did you even read what the KJV says? It's one of the translations I looked at and it also says "with God" in verse 1 and 2.
Why do you marvel at the fact that God’s Word was with him and is him? My word is with me and my word is me. When you speak and people hear you, they will know that the word they heard is you.
A Word is not a Son. Why is it that people suddenly forget what basic English words mean? There was no one in the beginning with God. Do you not therefore err because you know not the scriptures, nor the power of God? I speak this to your shame.
God’s Word is forever settled in heaven and it was made flesh and dwelt among us. As it is written:
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Believe me, I don't marvel at any of your ramblings. Just answer the question if you can. Did you notice that the translation you so much admire also says that Jesus was with God in vs 1 and 2 ?Why do you marvel at the fact that God’s Word was with him and is him? My word is with me and my word is me. When you speak and people hear you, they will know that the word they heard is you.
A Word is not a Son. Why is it that people suddenly forget what basic English words mean? There was no one in the beginning with God. Do you not therefore err because you know not the scriptures, nor the power of God? I speak this to your shame.
God’s Word is forever settled in heaven and it was made flesh and dwelt among us. As it is written:
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
As Jesus Christ said of your wicked brethren, vain man, so say I unto you.Believe me, I don't marvel at any of your ramblings. Just answer the question if you can. Did you notice that the translation you so much admire also says that Jesus was with God in vs 1 and 2 ?
( C'mon Waggles, there's no need for that.)Your understanding of scripture is obviously faulty.
Hmm, I'm impressed, you seem quite knowledgeable and resourceful. Since you've got Aramaic, I'd like to ask about another verse in Aramaic - Matt. 1:16:I shall see your Coptic to English translation, and raise you the Aramaic.
ܒܪܫܝܬ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܡܠܬܐ ܘܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܠܘܬ ܐܠܗܐ ܘܐܠܗܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ1 In the beginning there was The Miltha {The Word}, and He, The Miltha {The Word}, was with Alaha {God}. And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}.
Rhema
( Let them figure out that colloquialism .... )
Technically it doesn't say "with." μετά means "with." And I'll admit that the selection of "with" as an English gloss is rather perplexing. (And then everybody was too scared to fix it.)So you think I'm confused? That's funny. Did you even read what the KJV says? It's one of the translations I looked at and it also says "with God" in verse 1 and 2.
I don't care about all the gobbledygook you just wrote. You said that they should throw out all bibles that translate John as "with God" and that the KJV was the superior translation. I guess you will now throw out your KJ bible? Just admit when you are wrong unless you think you know more than all the Bible translators and bible scholars. Maybe that is what you think.Technically it doesn't say "with." μετά means "with." And I'll admit that the selection of "with" as an English gloss is rather perplexing. (And then everybody was too scared to fix it.)
Instead, the author chose to write the word "πρός" (followed by an accusative noun).
For those of you who like Strong's.... πρός PROS -
A strengthened form of G4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, that is, toward (with the genitive case the side of, that is, pertaining to; with the dative case by the side of, that is, near to; usually with the accusative case the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, that is, whither or for which it is predicated):
And those accepting the Liddell Scott - here's a link
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, πρός
www.perseus.tufts.edu
A. on the side of, in the direction ofWith Accusative...A. III. of Relation between two objects,1. in reference to, in respect of, touching
The best one could say is "with regard to" if the word "with" needs to be used. However since THEOS can mean "the divine good," I submit a better translation for the consideration of the thread.
(John 1:1) The Pattern (λογος) was suffused throughout the cosmic protoplasm, and the Pattern was only of (PROS) the Divine Good, and Sovereign is the Pattern.
The style of writing in John would be well recognized by other theologians like Philo, and one ought to understand that the vocabulary in John, such as ARXE and LOGOS, would reflect their definitions.
In addition to proclaiming that the LOGOS was suffused throughout (IN) everything around you (ARXE), John 1:1 also rejects Dualism that is found in Zoroastrianism and other religions by saying that the LOGOS is only of the Divine Good. That's what ο λογος ην προς τον θεον means.
Finally, when recognizing that THEOS also means "Sovereign," θεος ην ο λογος says exactly that without messing up the word order.
θεος (SOVERIGN) ην (IS) ο (THE) λογος (LOGOS).
A declaration that also refutes the Gnostic idea that the physical world is evil.
Rhema
(And there's no need to reply unless one has something of substance to say.)
I don't care about all the gobbledygook you just wrote. You said that they should throw out all bibles that translate John as "with God" and that the KJV was the superior translation. I guess you will now throw out your KJ bible? Just admit when you are wrong unless you think you know more than all the Bible translators and bible scholars. Maybe that is what you think.
There is no so called "trinity" in 1 John 5:7. Here is how the verse is written in the Word of God:
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
— (1 John 5:7).
Why is there three that bear record in heaven? Because:
"...In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."
— (2 Corinthians 13:1).
And what is the record that these three bear in heaven of? This is the record:
"...That God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."
— (1 John 5:11-12).
How did the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ bear record in heaven that God hath given to us eternal life? He did so when his Son:
"...Was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
— (Matthew 3:16-17).
God the Father is the only true God. As his Son said:
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
—
I'm not going to go through every one of these with you but let's look a few to get a taste of what you put down:Why did the Word of God bear record in heaven? Because it is forever settled in heaven. As it is written:
"For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven."
— (Psalm 119:89).
The Word of God is:
"...Quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
— (Hebrews 4:12).
The Word of God has borne record in heaven from Genesis to Revelation that God hath given us eternal life. Wherefore, Jesus Christ said:
"...These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."
— (Luke 24:44).
And God's Word was with him in the beginning and is him:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
— (John 1:1).
Contrary to popular belief, there was no co-equal God with him in the beginning. As the LORD of hosts said:
"...Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any."
— (Isaiah 44:8).
And how did the Holy Ghost bear record in heaven? It was poured out from heaven when Jesus was glorified. As it is written:
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
— (John 7:39).
And the Spirit itself:
"...Beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
— (Romans 8:16-17).
Who is the Holy Ghost? He is the Almighty God. He is the Holy Father:
"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."
— (John 17:11).
And God is a Spirit:
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
— (John 4:24).
God anointed Jesus Christ his Son:
"...With the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."
— (Acts 10:38).
Wherefore, Jesus Christ called that Holy Spirit that was dwelling in him, his Father:
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
— (John 14:10).
It is therefore written in the scripture, that:
"...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself..."
— (2 Corinthians 5:19).
It is therefore written concerning the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost that:
"...These three are one."
— (1 John 5:7).
Praise the Lord! He that is of God heareth God’s words.