Trinity

[Rhema]

Maybe when you write your own translation you can change.

I just read the Greek directly. Why wouldn't one want to do this?

It doesn't seem like anyone else has.

Translators typically have a herd mentality, and not much education in the Greek sciences. That's been my complaint since the beginning. The translation community is all grammar and syntax and manuscript history, but few have the necessary broad-based education to exercise good judgment from the perspective of the intended audience.

And no one else has addressed the gender (linguistic) errors in Ephesians six either (cf. my first post here).

Rhema
(And then you get the wild drug induced lunacies of the Passion Translation.)

Seems to me that "with" is similar to "by the side of, near to or toward"

Yet that addresses location and position, not direction, so it doesn't fit. And you've given the exact reason why I hate Strong's. ( I did provide the Liddell Scott...)

 

[Rhema]

It seems you are making reference to "I am he" meaning he is God?? In John 9:9 the blind man that Jesus healed also said "I am he". The same exact words that Jesus spoke. I guess he thought he was God too?

Exactly. I now stand impressed. (For whatever that's worth.) Consider, "Abraham was before... I am (now).

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

instead of what you think he was talking about which had nothing to do with the thought you infirmed it as being, which was Jesus identifying Himself as God.

( Perhaps he was misled by the title of the thread...)

Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

( Perhaps he was misled by the title of the thread...)

Rhema

 

[Br. Bear]

Still, there is Power in the name of Jesus...

Amen power in the name.

 

[Br. Bear]

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.

Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


Philippians 2:5-11

 

[Searchingtoo]

I just read the Greek directly. Why wouldn't one want to do this?


Translators typically have a herd mentality, and not much education in the Greek sciences. That's been my complaint since the beginning. The translation community is all grammar and syntax and manuscript history, but few have the necessary broad-based education to exercise good judgment from the perspective of the intended audience.

And no one else has addressed the gender (linguistic) errors in Ephesians six either (cf. my first post here).

Rhema
(And then you get the wild drug induced lunacies of the Passion Translation.)


Yet that addresses location and position, not direction, so it doesn't fit. And you've given the exact reason why I hate Strong's. ( I did provide the Liddell Scott...)

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.

Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


Philippians 2:5-11

He never said he was not God's equal because he was in the flesh and as far as I know no one else did either. I do know that everything he did was at Gods direction both on earth and when he was in heaven. Even when he went back to heaven he still called God "his God" in Rev. 3:12 and again, still in heaven 1 Corinthias 15:27,28 says “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." Does this sound like Jesus was God when he was returned to his glory in heaven?

You might remember what Jesus said in this in John (again) 17:20-22 - “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one. Sometimes someone will say, as proof that Jesus is God, Jesus said the father and I are one or mention his glory. If either of these things made Jesus God then it seems you could make the same argument about all followers.

Oh, by the way, you can not be the thing you are in the form of.

Too much irrefutable truth including, by the way, John 17:3, John 5:19, John 20:17, Col. 1:15, Rev. 3:14 and so many others. These scriptures are factual and to the point. The trouble with the scriptures that are used to show that Jesus is God is they all come with a caveat such as they are spurious, questionable translation, etc., or they are just vague like the one you just quoted. But when you have scriptures where Jesus himself says that his father is the only true God, which eliminates everyone else, and he continually says things like his father is greater and he can only do what the father tells him, etc, how can you deny that? When he was accused of being God by the liars of his time what did he say? Do you think satan would ask God to worship him like he did Jesus? Too much stuff my friend.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Exactly. I now stand impressed. (For whatever that's worth.) Consider, "Abraham was before... I am (now).

Rhema

The Greek word eigo means I or me. The Greek word eimi means exist, am, have been, it is I, was. But of course you already know this so why are trying to say it means Jesus was God. All he was saying is that before Abraham was I existed. It has nothing to do with him being God. Do you know how many times the phrase I am is in the Bible? Nearly 1000 of times. Moses said I am, Paul said I am, the man that was blind from birth, Zachariah and the list goes on. It just shows how far some will reach to try to prove something like this. Again, the caveat I spoke of earlier.

Abraham who lived 1000 years before Moses must have known God's name, which is not "I am" because he used it in Gen. 22:14 (KJV) so it seems that Moses must have also known it. It also seems that Genesis was written before Exodus.

 

[Waggles]

Zechariah 12:7 “And the LORD will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah.

12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him,
as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Zechariah 12 clearly states that YHWH is returning to save Jerusalem and that he is the one whom they pierced.

Psalm 22:1 To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
22:16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet—

 

[Curtis]

But of course you already know this so why are trying to say it means Jesus was God.

Heb 1:6 And when he brought his supreme Son into the world, God said, “Let all of God’s angels worship him.”
Heb 1:7 Regarding the angels, he says, “He sends his angels like the winds, his servants like flames of fire.”
Heb 1:8 But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice. (NLT)

 

[Waggles]

Heb 1:8 But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice. (NLT)

Like so many other scriptures the teaching is that Jesus is also God and with God the Father and ONE with the Father
Worth a little more elaboration to bring out the true awesomeness of scripture on this

Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did he ever say, Thou art my Son, I today have begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son?
6 And when again he bringeth in the firstborn into the inhabited earth he saith, And let all angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his *angels spirits, And his *ministers a flame of fire:
8 but of the Son, Thy *throne, O *God, is unto the age of the age; And the sceptre of uprightness is sceptre of his kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated lawlessness; Therefore *God, thy *God, hath anointed thee With oil of gladness above thy *fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginnings didst found the earth, And the heavens are works of thy *hands:
11 They shall perish; (but thou continuest And shall all wax old as a garment;
12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As if a garment, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy *years shall not fail.
13 But of which of the angels hath he ever said, Sit on my right hand, Till I make thine *enemies footstool of thy *feet? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth unto service for them that shall inherit salvation? [NENT]
So clearly Yeshua is not simply an angel.

Colossians 1:15 who is the invisible God’s image, firstborn of all creation;
16 for in him were *all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; *all things have been created through him, and unto him;

 

[Waggles]

Ephesians 3:9 and to bring to light what is the dispensation of the mystery *hid for the ages in *God who created *all things; in order
10 that now unto the principalities and the powers in the heavenlies be made known through the church the manifold wisdom of *God,
11 according to a plan of the ages which he made in the Christ, Jesus our Lord:

Romans 16:25 Now to the one able to establish you according to my *gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to revelation of the mystery kept silent through the times of ages,
26 but now is manifested, and through the prophetic scriptures, according to commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:

1Timothy 3:15 but if I delay that thou know how one should behave in God’s house, the which is the living God’s church, pillar and ground of the truth.
3:16 And confessedly great is the mystery of *godliness; Who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Heb 1:6 And when he brought his supreme Son into the world, God said, “Let all of God’s angels worship him.”
Heb 1:7 Regarding the angels, he says, “He sends his angels like the winds, his servants like flames of fire.”
Heb 1:8 But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice. (NLT)

This has already been covered but I don't want to wade through 350 posts to find it so I'll go over it again for you. First, Heb 1:8 is a quote from Ps 45:7 and is speaking of a human king. Using your logic, this human would also have to be God.

That the text calls God, “your God”, the king’s God, shows that the king is inferior to God. “God” does not have a God. It would make no sense to be calling the king “God” here, as the clear biblical teaching is that there is one God, so if Jesus is the one true God, how could he have a God?

This king is also spoken of as having a wife and being blessed by God. Again God has no God and therefor could not be blessed by God.

If this verse is calling the king God then Solomon and Jesus would both have to be God.

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the king (Jesus) being referred to is not God because the entire passage is trying to argue that Jesus is greater than the angels. If Jesus was God, it would have been much simpler for the author to say that Jesus is God, therefore, he is greater than the angels, case closed. Instead the author goes to great lengths to try to show Jesus superiority in other ways, such as that he sits at the right hand of the Father (Heb 1:13) and God calls him his son (Heb 1:5).

And then there is all this:

John 17:3 - His Father is the only true God.
John 3:16 - only getotten Son
1 John 4:9 only begotten Son
John 1:14, 18 - Jesus is the only begotten Son
Colossians 1:15 - Jesus is firstborn of all creation
Revelations 3:14 - he is the beginning of the creation of God
Hebrews 1:6 only first begotten

Proverbs 8:22 - created, formed, brought forth, possessed.
Matthew 11:19 Jesus identified as Wisdom

Matthew 24:36 - only the Father knows the day and hour
John 14:28 - the Father is greater than Jesus


John 20:17 - Jesus calls God "my God and your God, my Father and your Father"
Revelation 3:2 - Jesus calls God "my God" after he goes to heaven
Revelation 3:12 - again calls God "my God" after he is in heaven
Matthew 27:46 - My God, My God, why have you forsaken me
Revelation 1:6 - his God and Father

Called Son of God:
Luke 1:35, John 14:33, Luke 22:70, John 5:25, John 10:36, John 11:4, John 17:1, Luke 3:21,22, Mat. 4:3-7, John 1:49,50, Matthew 16:15-17, John 11:25-27.

Called God the Son
0

Jesus can do only what the Father tells him
John 5:19 - only does what the Father does
John 12:49 - only says what he hears the Father say

I'll cut this short since I don't want to write a book.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Zechariah 12:7 “And the LORD will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah.

12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him,
as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Zechariah 12 clearly states that YHWH is returning to save Jerusalem and that he is the one whom they pierced.

Psalm 22:1 To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
22:16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet—

In Carl Friedrich Keil and Franz Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament note, “. . . the transition from the first person (alay) to the third (alayv) points to the fact that the person slain, although essentially one with Jehovah, is personally distinct from the Supreme God.” and the manuscript evidence clearly points to the change from “me” to “him” as accurate.

Carson summarizes the text quite well, “Perhaps the best way to understand this is that the people have killed a historical figure, who was the Lord’s representative, and in doing so they have pierced the Lord himself.”

You might consider the RSV and others that say this: "when they look on him whom they have pierced"

As I've said before, again the caveat.

No caveat with these verses:
John 17:3 - His Father is the only true God.
John 3:16 - only getotten Son
1 John 4:9 only begotten Son
John 1:14, 18 - Jesus is the only begotten Son
Colossians 1:15 - Jesus is firstborn of all creation
Revelations 3:14 - he is the beginning of the creation of God
Hebrews 1:6 only first begotten

Proverbs 8:22 - created, formed, brought forth, possessed.
Matthew 11:19 Jesus identified as Wisdom

Matthew 24:36 - only the Father knows the day and hour
John 14:28 - the Father is greater than Jesus


John 20:17 - Jesus calls God "my God and your God, my Father and your Father"
Revelation 3:2 - Jesus calls God "my God" after he goes to heaven
Revelation 3:12 - again calls God "my God" after he is in heaven
Matthew 27:46 - My God, My God, why have you forsaken me
Revelation 1:6 - his God and Father

Called Son of God:
Luke 1:35, John 14:33, Luke 22:70, John 5:25, John 10:36, John 11:4, John 17:1, Luke 3:21,22, Mat. 4:3-7, John 1:49,50, Matthew 16:15-17, John 11:25-27.

Called God the Son
0

Jesus can do only what the Father tells him
John 5:19 - only does what the Father does
John 12:49 - only says what he hears the Father say

 

[Curtis]

This has already been covered but I don't want to wade through 350 posts to find it so I'll go over it again for you. First, Heb 1:8 is a quote from Ps 45:7 and is speaking of a human king. Using your logic, this human would also have to be God.

That the text calls God, “your God”, the king’s God, shows that the king is inferior to God. “God” does not have a God. It would make no sense to be calling the king “God” here, as the clear biblical teaching is that there is one God, so if Jesus is the one true God, how could he have a God?

This king is also spoken of as having a wife and being blessed by God. Again God has no God and therefor could not be blessed by God.

If this verse is calling the king God then Solomon and Jesus would both have to be God.

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the king (Jesus) being referred to is not God because the entire passage is trying to argue that Jesus is greater than the angels. If Jesus was God, it would have been much simpler for the author to say that Jesus is God, therefore, he is greater than the angels, case closed. Instead the author goes to great lengths to try to show Jesus superiority in other ways, such as that he sits at the right hand of the Father (Heb 1:13) and God calls him his son (Heb 1:5).

And then there is all this:

John 17:3 - His Father is the only true God.
John 3:16 - only getotten Son
1 John 4:9 only begotten Son
John 1:14, 18 - Jesus is the only begotten Son
Colossians 1:15 - Jesus is firstborn of all creation
Revelations 3:14 - he is the beginning of the creation of God
Hebrews 1:6 only first begotten

Proverbs 8:22 - created, formed, brought forth, possessed.
Matthew 11:19 Jesus identified as Wisdom

Matthew 24:36 - only the Father knows the day and hour
John 14:28 - the Father is greater than Jesus


John 20:17 - Jesus calls God "my God and your God, my Father and your Father"
Revelation 3:2 - Jesus calls God "my God" after he goes to heaven
Revelation 3:12 - again calls God "my God" after he is in heaven
Matthew 27:46 - My God, My God, why have you forsaken me
Revelation 1:6 - his God and Father

Called Son of God:
Luke 1:35, John 14:33, Luke 22:70, John 5:25, John 10:36, John 11:4, John 17:1, Luke 3:21,22, Mat. 4:3-7, John 1:49,50, Matthew 16:15-17, John 11:25-27.

Called God the Son
0

Jesus can do only what the Father tells him
John 5:19 - only does what the Father does
John 12:49 - only says what he hears the Father say

I'll cut this short since I don't want to write a book.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

 

[Curtis]

if Jesus is the one true God, how could he have a God?

This is the result of not understanding the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit unity of God.

 

[Curtis]

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the king (Jesus) being referred to is not God because the entire passage is trying to argue that Jesus is greater than the angels. If Jesus was God, it would have been much simpler for the author to say that Jesus is God, therefore, he is greater than the angels, case closed.

Jesus in his incarnation was made "lower" than the angels for the suffering of death. You do know angels can not die? God can not die either unless he chooses to take on a physical body and lay down his life on purpose to redeem man and that through death he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Curtis]

“God” does not have a God

Who was God talking to when he said......

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[Searchingtoo]

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

That's what you have to say???

 

[Curtis]

That's what you have to say???

Did you notice these are not my words?