Trinity

[Searchingtoo]

John 17:3; "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

How does this prove Jesus isn't God in any way?

I could say "My family left me at the park.". Does that mean I'm not part of the family?

The Father is the only true God, and Jesus also is the only true God. But they aren't two Gods.

Excuse me for saying so, but that sounds ridiculous to me. When Jesus said his Father was the only true God that automatically lets out anyone else from being God. If I said my father was the only 5 Star General, do you think there could be any others. Strong's says this about the meaning of the Greek word in John 17:3 translated only: μόνος mónos, mon'-os; probably from G3306; remaining, i.e. sole or single; by implication, mere:—alone, only, by themselves. Does that help?

 

[Searchingtoo]

Well that's funny, you said it loud and clear that "don't try to avoid John 17:3 by throwing up a bunch of other scripture", and a motherload of scripture is given in other posts.

That doesn't sound like a response to the quote you responded to???

 

[Searchingtoo]

Again, the "only true God" is known to be true and unique through Christ - God himself in the likeness of man, to whom all authority is given, that''s what John 17:1-5 is all about. If you deny Christ, you deny God, and whatever idea of god you have in your mind is not the true God.

It doesn't matter what vs 1-5 is about for the purpose of understanding what Jesus said in vs 3. He said that his Heavenly Father was the only true God. This is what Strong's says the word translated "only" from the Greek in this verse means: μόνος mónos, mon'-os; probably from G3306; remaining, i.e. sole or single; by implication, mere:—alone, only, by themselves. I don't know how to make it any clearer for you. If you still can't understand it I'm sorry.

 

[Curtis]

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life. (NLT)

 

[Curtis]

Eph 4:4 For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future.
Eph 4:5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, in all, and living through all.

 

[Searchingtoo]

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life. (NLT)

We know also that the Son of God (Jesus) has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him (God) who is true. And we are in him (God) who is true by being in his (God) Son Jesus Christ. He (God) is the true God and eternal life.

First, there are three pronouns (him, his and he) in this passage that we have to “correctly” determine who they are referring. It is the “He” in the last sentence that frequently causes some confusion because both God and the Son of God are mentioned in the same passage. But it is the context that determines to whom the phrase “true God” applies.

The passage mentions “him that is true” two times, and both times it is clearly referring to the Father. Since this verse refers twice to the Father as “the one who is true,” that is a strong indication that “the true God” in the last part of the verse is the same being.

Second, if holding the understanding that there is only one God and none else (No God the Son, or “God the…” anything else) (Isa 45:5-6) then this phrase “true God” should mean the same wherever it is written. The phrase “true God” is used four other times in the Bible (2 Chronicles 15:3; Jeremiah 10:10; John 17:3 and 1 Thessalonians 1:9) and in all four of these places, the “true God” refers to the Father and not the Son of God.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Eph 4:4 For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future.
Eph 4:5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, in all, and living through all.

So what do you think this means?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It doesn't matter what vs 1-5 is about for the purpose of understanding what Jesus said in vs 3. He said that his Heavenly Father was the only true God. This is what Strong's says the word translated "only" from the Greek in this verse means: μόνος mónos, mon'-os; probably from G3306; remaining, i.e. sole or single; by implication, mere:—alone, only, by themselves. I don't know how to make it any clearer for you. If you still can't understand it I'm sorry.

Yes it does matter, no verse means anything by and of itself unless it’s put in a proper context. You cannot understand what Jesus meant in 17:3 without carefully studying the whole chapter. When you pick out one single verse and weaponize it, you’ve already gotten astray.

And by the way, I don’t need to parse Ancient Greek to know the concept of “only God”, the shema prayer in deuteronomy already made that statement - the Lord is God, the Lord is ONE. This one true God manifested himself in the form of a man, and there were precedents, such as his visit to Abraham in Gen. 18, or his wrestling with Jacob all night, are those not the one true God? I don’t know how to make it clearer to you either. You have two problems, first, reductionism, pounding on a single verse and then a single word while ignoring the context; then you seem to deny the possibility of God’s incarnation, that the “one true God” can appear as a man.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

That doesn't sound like a response to the quote you responded to???

You're being disingenuous. I was responding to your words, "Just give me scripture not what you think", and I've given an answer to your question - Jesus is the only tru God in human form. You don't like it, that's your problem.

 

[Searchingtoo]

You're being disingenuous. I was responding to your words, "Just give me scripture not what you think", and I've given an answer to your question - Jesus is the only tru God in human form. You don't like it, that's your problem.

I don't recall any verse you gave that said "Jesus is the only true God in the universe." Please provide it if you can. The only verse I can think of is when Jesus said that his heaven Father was the only true God.

I hate to have to repeat this but the Greek word for only according to Strong's means μόνος mónos, mon'-os; probably from G3306; remaining, i.e. sole or single; by implication, mere:—alone, only, by themselves.

So please show me again if you already have the Bible verse that says Jesus is God.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Yes it does matter, no verse means anything by and of itself unless it’s put in a proper context. You cannot understand what Jesus meant in 17:3 without carefully studying the whole chapter. When you pick out one single verse and weaponize it, you’ve already gotten astray.

And by the way, I don’t need to parse Ancient Greek to know the concept of “only God”, the shema prayer in deuteronomy already made that statement - the Lord is God, the Lord is ONE. This one true God manifested himself in the form of a man, and there were precedents, such as his visit to Abraham in Gen. 18, or his wrestling with Jacob all night, are those not the one true God? I don’t know how to make it clearer to you either. You have two problems, first, reductionism, pounding on a single verse and then a single word while ignoring the context; then you seem to deny the possibility of God’s incarnation, that the “one true God” can appear as a man.

The verse you are referring to in Deuteronomy is talking about Yahweh not Jesus. Jesus is not Yahweh. Strong's says the the word there
(ְיהָוה) translated "Lord" means Jehovah, the Jewish name for God, which just proves there is only one God, not 3 in 1 or what ever you claim

Also, since you claim Jesus is the one true God manifested in the form of a man. Can you please show me that verse?

I don't see where you think it was Jesus who wrestled with Jacob. The word there translated God again is ֱאלֹ ִהים which Strong's says is "God, god" so it could mean almighty God or just an angel. In either case there's nothing in that verse to indicate it was Jesus.

You still haven't produced an ounce of proof that Jesus is God and yet you want to argue with the very words of Jesus where he said that his father was the "only true God", which eliminates anyone else including Jesus or the Holy Spirit, which I assume you also think is God.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I don't recall any verse you gave that said "Jesus is the only true God in the universe." Please provide it if you can. The only verse I can think of is when Jesus said that his heaven Father was the only true God.

I hate to have to repeat this but the Greek word for only according to Strong's means μόνος mónos, mon'-os; probably from G3306; remaining, i.e. sole or single; by implication, mere:—alone, only, by themselves.

So please show me again if you already have the Bible verse that says Jesus is God.

Well how about John 1:1-14, and all the other "proof text" verses that have already been posted in this thread, read them yourself. I hate to repeat myself either.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus said in John 17:3 that his heavenly Father was the only true God, so what kind of a god is Jesus?

The word god, is a word that is used for deuty. In the Bible it is used of the Father and the Son. However, it is also used of the pagan gods. It's simply a word to denote deity. In John 17:3 it's interesting that Jesus uses the word "true" when speaking of the Father. The Father is the only true God or Deity. However, Jesus, being the Son of God, is also Deity. Thus He is on occasion referred to as God. By using the word "true" Jesus acknowledges the other uses of the word God, but let's us know that they are all inferior to the Father.

 

[Butch5]

I think it is quite a stretch to say that Jesus is YHWH simply because God is mentioned as being in heaven in one place and earth in another. I don't see mention of 2 Yahweh anywhere in the Bible and certainly not here. Besides, if you think Yahweh can't be in two places at one time then you take away his omnipresence. Maybe you don't believe that God can be everywhere at the same time???

The angel of Yahweh is not Yahweh or it would say Yahweh instead of angel of Yahweh. Just because Gideon said "Oh, my lord Yahweh doesn't mean he thought the angel was Yahweh. You have to do better than that. I've heard a good many people say the same thing but certainly not because they saw God or thought they did.

By the way, I think the I am thing is bogus as well. In both John 8:24 and 8:58 when Jesus said I am it is obvious that he was saying I am or I have been. In fact Strong's says that is exactly what it means. This is just a made up idea to try to prove Jesus is God again. Completely false. Besides that if just read a little further in John chapter 9 Jesus healed a man of blindness and the people were discussing whether or not he was the man that was blind from birth and he said I am. The exact same (egO eimi) words that Jesus
spoke. Do you think this man thought he was God too? It's just bogus.

While God is omnipresent, the passage in Genesis 19 cannot be said to represent this. In the passage we have Yahweh on earth calling down brimstone and fire from Yahweh in Heaven. This cannot simply be omnipresence. We are told that the Yahweh on earth had just previously dined and had discussions with Abraham. Abraham was able to see and touch this Yahweh. However we're told in both Testments that no one can see God. John said no man has seen God at any time. Paul said that no man can see God as He's invisible. Thus, the Yahweh on earth, which could be seen, isn't the Yahweh in Heaven who can't be seen. Thus, we have two beings called Yahweh.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Well how about John 1:1-14, and all the other "proof text" verses that have already been posted in this thread, read them yourself. I hate to repeat myself either.

Yes Jesus was with God from the beginning of creation and as John said God created everything through Jesus but it was also John who wrote that "I am going to my father, who is greater than I am" and "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." Both of these verse show a separating between God and Jesus and show Jesus was not equal with God, which he would have to be if he was God.

Again in John 1:14 & 18 he is called "the only begotten son", which Strong's says means "only born or begotten". Do you disagree with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance? Proverbs 8:22 says Jesus was possessed in the beginning of Gods ways and the word possessed there Strong's says is "to erect or create". So again we see Jesus was created just a Col. 1:15 confirms "firstborn of all creation".

This is what I already said earlier: To be hones I get a little tired of explaining John 1:1 because I always feel I'm explaining something that people who already know but choose to ignore it. Anyway, Here goes. There is no indefinite (a, an) article in the Greek. (sound familiar) but there is a definite article (the). The only way to distinguish between God and a god is to either use the article before God to show it is "the" God or leave out the article to show it is "a" god. This is how John 1:1 was written: In the beginning was "the" (Def. Art.) Word and "the" (D.A.) Word was with "the" (D.A.) God and "the" (D.A.) Word was a (No D.A) god. I don't think it was an accident that John used the definite article every time except the last time when he left it out because he knew what that meant. In the Coptic Greek there is an indefinite article and it is used where it says "the word was a (indefinite art.) god.

So again a nothing burger again.

If you don't get it I guess I just don't understand how you think.

 

[B-A-C]

I am going to my father, who is greater than I am" and "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command,

There is a hierarchy in the Godhead. No argument here.

Proverbs 8:22 says Jesus was possessed in the beginning of Gods ways and the word possessed there Strong's says is "to erect or create". So again we see Jesus was created just a Col. 1:15 confirms "firstborn of all creation".

Prov 8:22; is about David, not Jesus. now you are just pulling just out of your hat trying to make things up.
In Col 1:15, firstborn of all creation, doesn't mean I didn't exist before physical creation. God/Jesus existed before the universe, before creation.

either use the article before God to show it is "the" God or leave out the article to show it is "a" god.

Another made up speculation. So then if Jesus is just a little (g) god, do we worship Him also? Now we have two Gods to worship?

Exod 20:3; "You shall have no other gods before Me.
Deut 5:7; 'You shall have no other gods before Me.
Jdgs 10:13; "Yet you have forsaken Me and served other gods; therefore I will no longer deliver you.

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[Searchingtoo]

The word god, is a word that is used for deuty. In the Bible it is used of the Father and the Son. However, it is also used of the pagan gods. It's simply a word to denote deity. In John 17:3 it's interesting that Jesus uses the word "true" when speaking of the Father. The Father is the only true God or Deity. However, Jesus, being the Son of God, is also Deity. Thus He is on occasion referred to as God. By using the word "true" Jesus acknowledges the other uses of the word God, but let's us know that they are all inferior to the Father.

You say god is used of the Father and the Son and pagan gods. It's also used of angels and men which pretty much proves it is not always used for deity, unless you think angels and men are deity as well.

You say that Jesus' father is the true God in John 17:3 and somehow that means that Jesus is also the true God. That makes no sense. Jesus is the one that said his father was the "only" true God, which means (do I really have to explain this again) there is no other. Again, If I said my father was the only 5 star general do you think that means that I'm a 5 star general?

The Athanasian Creed from where we get the trinity doctrine in part says the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one...The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal.

The creed says that all 3 are uncreated but Col. 1;15 tells us that Jesus "was the firstborn of all creation", which at the very least shows Jesus had a beginning. Rev. 3:14 also says Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. Proverbs 8:22 says he was possessed (KJV) but strong's says the Hebrew word translated to possessed means "to erect or create. So it seems Jesus did have a beginning and was created.

Are all 3 also equal and unlimited? Again it seems not. Jesus said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Not Jesus or the Holy Spirit. He said "the father is greater than I" in John 14:28. Then in John 12:49 he said For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. So we see Jesus is not equal with God.

Of course since we see Jesus was created he could not have eternal or always existed but Almighty God did.

 

[Butch5]

You say god is used of the Father and the Son and pagan gods. It's also used of angels and men which pretty much proves it is not always used for deity, unless you think angels and men are deity as well.

That correct. However, those men usually claimed to be deities. Just look at Roman history.

You say that Jesus' father is the true God in John 17:3 and somehow that means that Jesus is also the true God. That makes no sense. Jesus is the one that said his father was the "only" true God, which means (do I really have to explain this again) there is no other. Again, If I said my father was the only 5 star general do you think that means that I'm a 5 star general?

I agree it makes no sense. I said no such thing. I said that Jesus uses the word "true" of the Father showing that all other "gods" are inferior to the Father. I'm not sure how you got equatily out of that.

The Athanasian Creed from where we get the trinity doctrine in part says the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one...The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal.

The creed says that all 3 are uncreated but Col. 1;15 tells us that Jesus "was the firstborn of all creation", which at the very least shows Jesus had a beginning. Rev. 3:14 also says Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. Proverbs 8:22 says he was possessed (KJV) but strong's says the Hebrew word translated to possessed means "to erect or create. So it seems Jesus did have a beginning and was created.

The Athanasian Creed is nonsense. It's a logical contradiction. Jesus is the first born of all creation. First "born" the only "begotten". That's born, not created.

Are all 3 also equal and unlimited? Again it seems not. Jesus said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Not Jesus or the Holy Spirit. He said "the father is greater than I" in John 14:28. Then in John 12:49 he said For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. So we see Jesus is not equal with God.

I never said He was.

Of course since we see Jesus was created he could not have eternal or always existed but Almighty God did.

He wasn't created. He was begotten. Born of God. Whatever the substance of God is, Jesus was. Paul tells us that He put off that form of God to become man.

 

[Searchingtoo]

There is a hierarchy in the Godhead. No argument here.



Prov 8:22; is about David, not Jesus. now you are just pulling just out of your hat trying to make things up.
In Col 1:15, firstborn of all creation, doesn't mean I didn't exist before physical creation. God/Jesus existed before the universe, before creation.


Another made up speculation. So then if Jesus is just a little (g) god, do we worship Him also? Now we have two Gods to worship?

Exod 20:3; "You shall have no other gods before Me.
Deut 5:7; 'You shall have no other gods before Me.
Jdgs 10:13; "Yet you have forsaken Me and served other gods; therefore I will no longer deliver you.

Here is a link to the policies and beliefs of this website.

Statement of Faith

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. John 7:16,17 Inspiration of Scriptures We believe that the Holy Bible is the written Word of the...

www.talkjesus.com

If you don't agree, perhaps you should go elsewhere, instead of trolling this site.

I went to your link but found no policies or beliefs.

 

[Curtis]

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jesus created ALL things and he existed before ALL things. Jesus did not create himself?

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.