Trinity

[Searchingtoo]

Jonathon, do you believe the apostle John? If so, let me ask what you make of this passage. He said,

John 1:1 (KJV 1900): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John said the Word was with God and "WAS" God. He didn't say the Word was with God and the Word is God. Why did John say "WAS" rather than "is"?

I'm not Jonathon, but I'll take a crack at this again.

Can't recall that question before but we all know what you're asking. I don't know anymore than you about that, but I don't think John was saying that Jesus was God. Here's why.

John wrote in Koine Greek. Modern Greek is significantly different. And today, we do not write John's Greek words in Greek the same way John wrote those same words. The following shows how we write John's Greek words today. The first row uses a Greek alphabet. The second row uses the English alphabet to give you an idea how the word sounds. The third row is a word for word translation into English.

en arch hn `o logoV kai `o logoV en arche en ho logos kai ho logos in the beginning was the word and the word hn proV ton qeon kai qeoV hn `o logoV en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos was with the god and god was the word

The definite article in English is the word "the." Greek also has a definite article. John said, "and the Word was with THE God." However, he did not say, "and the Word was THE God." The only time he did not use the definite article in John 1:1 was before the last god which indicates he was not talking about THE God in that instance. The only way to distinguish between God and god is to leave out or use the definite article. John knew what he was doing when he left it out, as did everyone back at that time.

 

[Butch5]

I'm not Jonathon, but I'll take a crack at this again.

Can't recall that question before but we all know what you're asking. I don't know anymore than you about that, but I don't think John was saying that Jesus was God. Here's why.

John wrote in Koine Greek. Modern Greek is significantly different. And today, we do not write John's Greek words in Greek the same way John wrote those same words. The following shows how we write John's Greek words today. The first row uses a Greek alphabet. The second row uses the English alphabet to give you an idea how the word sounds. The third row is a word for word translation into English.

en arch hn `o logoV kai `o logoV en arche en ho logos kai ho logos in the beginning was the word and the word hn proV ton qeon kai qeoV hn `o logoV en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos was with the god and god was the word

The definite article in English is the word "the." Greek also has a definite article. John said, "and the Word was with THE God." However, he did not say, "and the Word was THE God." The only time he did not use the definite article in John 1:1 was before the last god which indicates he was not talking about THE God in that instance. The only way to distinguish between God and god is to leave out or use the definite article. John knew what he was doing when he left it out, as did everyone back at that time.

I appreciate that. I do know that. I was simply trying to see how he would approach it. I do believe he believes that Jesus is The God. We've had a rather long discussion on this topic before.

Logically, the teo couldn't be the same. If Jesus was The God and then became man. There would be no one to raise Him from the dead

 

[complete]

I appreciate that. I do know that. I was simply trying to see how he would approach it. I do believe he believes that Jesus is The God. We've had a rather long discussion on this topic before.

Logically, the teo couldn't be the same. If Jesus was The God and then became man. There would be no one to raise Him from the dead

'In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.'
(John 1:1)

Hello @Butch5,

'In the beginning (i,e., of the aions = 'ages') was (i.e., pre-existed) the Logos (the Word)' - The aions were prepared by Him (Heb. 1:2; 11:3)

'Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,
Whom He hath appointed heir of all things,
by Whom also He made the worlds (i.e., aions);'
(Heb. 1:2)

'Through faith we understand
that the worlds (ie., aions) were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen
were not made of things which do appear.'
(Heb 11:3)

* How wonderful this is, isn't it? How very wonderful!!

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

'In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.'
(John 1:1)

Hello @Butch5,

'In the beginning (i,e., of the aions = 'ages') was (i.e., pre-existed) the Logos (the Word)' - The aions were prepared by Him (Heb. 1:2; 11:3)

'Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,
Whom He hath appointed heir of all things,
by Whom also He made the worlds (i.e., aions);'
(Heb. 1:2)

'Through faith we understand
that the worlds (ie., aions) were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen
were not made of things which do appear.'
(Heb 11:3)

* How wonderful this is, isn't it? How very wonderful!!

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes it is!

 

[Waggles]

In the end I am just so happy that I have God my Father and God my Saviour are dwelling within me and I can exercise their power (the Holy Spirit)
through faith and praying in tongues.
How it all works I care not, except it does work for me marvellously - blessings, healings, miracles and much answered prayer.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Jonathon, do you believe the apostle John? If so, let me ask what you make of this passage. He said,

John 1:1 (KJV 1900): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John said the Word was with God and "WAS" God. He didn't say the Word was with God and the Word is God. Why did John say "WAS" rather than "is"?

"In the BEGINNING."

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I'm always fascinated at how Christians defend this doctrine so vehemently. It's a doctrine that is, nowhere expressed in Scriputre, but actually refuted by Scripture, is seen nowhere in church history until the 5th century, and was propagated by, who knows? Some suspect Augustine. It is completely illogical, something we wouldn't expect from a God who is, 'not a God of confusion'. It's a doctrine no one can explain. The fact that no one can explain it is not just a red flag, it's a red flag the size Jupiter. Any explanation people try to give is always irrational, which is to be expected because the doctrine is illogical.

Let's not let church doctrines override Scripture

No, God is not a god of confusion, when you read something in the bible that's confusing or ridiculous, in most cases that's a biblical or cultural reference to something else, you just have to figure out what that is and it will become abundantly clear. However, if you take the typical western REDUCTIONIST approach, and use one verse to repudiate another verse which seems to contradict the first one, then you get confused, that's not God's fault.

 

[Butch5]

No, God is not a god of confusion, when you read something in the bible that's confusing or ridiculous, in most cases that's a biblical or cultural reference to something else, you just have to figure out what that is and it will become abundantly clear. However, if you take the typical western REDUCTIONIST approach, and use one verse to repudiate another verse which seems to contradict the first one, then you get confused, that's not God's fault.

It's not one verse my friend. There are many. But, you skipped over all of the pertinent points. The doctrine is nowhere stated or taught in Scripture, but rather is refuted. It's not found in church history until the 5th century. It's illogical. It's got nothing to do with culture. One being cannot consist of 3 beings. That's illogical and contradictory. Contradiction indicates error. There is no error with God.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The definite article in English is the word "the." Greek also has a definite article. John said, "and the Word was with THE God." However, he did not say, "and the Word was THE God." The only time he did not use the definite article in John 1:1 was before the last god which indicates he was not talking about THE God in that instance. The only way to distinguish between God and god is to leave out or use the definite article. John knew what he was doing when he left it out, as did everyone back at that time.

That doesn't matter. What matters is your definition of God. So before you dive into another rabbit hole of your word game, tell me this - who is God? What does "God" (elohim) means to you? If your answer is Gen. 1:1, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, then there's no such thing as "a god", but always THE God. All the other "gods" or "sons of God" in the OT are created beings in heaven. Unless you can prove that Jesus is one of these "gods", he is THE God - in the beginning.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It's not one verse my friend. There are many. But, you skipped over all of the pertinent points. The doctrine is nowhere stated or taught in Scripture, but rather is refuted. It's not found in church history until the 5th century. It's illogical. It's got nothing to do with culture. One being cannot consist of 3 beings. That's illogical and contradictory. Contradiction indicates error. There is no error with God.

For the record, I never espoused the doctrine that God is "three beings." God was, is and always will be ONE, but there's this conundrum of the three appearing simultaneously at Jesus's baptism, isn't it. The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove, and God yelled from heaven: "this is my beloved son, of whom I'm very pleased." The "clover" and "egg" analogies are flawed and misleading explanataions for that event, and for the record, I've never espoused such analogies. What I believe and understand is very simple - SAME God is in heaven, on earth, and in between. This is a mechanism by which we can KNOW God, without that we can know ABOUT him, we can perceive his existence, we can find his fingerprints in all his creation, but we can't KNOW him. The only way to know God is through Jesus, and the Holy Spirit leads you to Jesus, it's like God's algorithm.

You know, It fascinates and frustrates me, that the devil knows this mechanism perfectly well, and he's been using his rigged algorithm to attract lost souls to the devil everyday, and here we're debating whether this is real and whether Jesus is God.

 

[Waggles]

Psalm 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph.
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

Psalm 136:2 Give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures forever.

Psalm 97:9 For you, O LORD, are most high over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods.

Psalm 86:8 There is none like you among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like yours.

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
from Hamlet

 

[Waggles]

Exodus 9:16 But for this purpose I have raised you [Moses] up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.

Exodus 23:20 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.
21 Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.
22 “But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
23 “When my angel goes before you and brings you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, and I blot them out,

Jude 1:5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. [ESV, LEB]

1Sam 12:8 When Jacob went into Egypt, and the Egyptians oppressed them, then your fathers cried out to the LORD and the LORD sent Moses and Aaron, who brought your fathers out of Egypt and made them dwell in this place.

Luke 5:18 And behold, some men were bringing on a bed a man who was paralyzed, and they were seeking to bring him in and lay him before Jesus,
19 but finding no way to bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the midst before Jesus.
20 And when he [Jesus] saw their faith, he said, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
22 When Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answered them, “Why do you question in your hearts?
23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’?
24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the man who was paralyzed—“I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home.”
25 And immediately he rose up before them and picked up what he had been lying on and went home, glorifying God.
26 And amazement seized them all, and they glorified God and were filled with awe, saying, “We have seen extraordinary things today.”

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Jonathon, do you believe the apostle John? If so, let me ask what you make of this passage. He said,

John 1:1 (KJV 1900): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John said the Word was with God and "WAS" God. He didn't say the Word was with God and the Word is God. Why did John say "WAS" rather than "is"?

OK, two can play this game. "Before Abraham WAS, I AM." There, present tense. Satisfied?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Yes it is!

Look, John 1:1 simply emphasizes on Jesus's divine origin. The Word, logos, is NOT a unique title or name for Jesus, it's a very common word in the entire NT, it could refer to any piece of information like "word on the street". In John 1:1-3 this Word is both God's plan for salvation and the divine order of the universe, and this logos was there at the beginning. But make no mistake, the Word did not become flesh in the beginning, not until John 1:14 when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, that's when Jesus was conceived as a human being. So simply put, the Word was the nature of God and was with God at the beginning, but the INCARNATION of the Word was not at the beginning.

 

[Rhema]

where did you learn that at? the internet too! the internet Lexicons, or Vines, or did you get it from The Hard copy; "Thayer's Greek English Lexicon of The new Testament words"?

You know you must show Your Source of Information on TalkJESUS.com? you know that right?

I reported you for not listing your source of information.

LINK to Entry in Liddell Scott Lexicon for παράκλητος since it seemed to bother PloughBoy so much.

 

[Rhema]

You have given no proof that Jesus [Emmanuel] is not God.

You have given no proof that I am not God either.

 

[Rhema]

Apparently I am somewhat late to the conversation.
Would anyone be bothered if I joined in?
( It had been my understanding that discussions about the Trinity were very frowned upon if not outright prohibited on TalkJesus)
Am I mistaken @Christ4Ever ?

Then again I haven't yet had the time to read through all eight pages, so maybe every concern was addressed and settled, yes?

Just wondering what the upside here would be, as Trinitarians are extremely indoctrinated and not necessarily well educated in Greek grammar and styles of writing.

An entire wing of my seminary's library is dedicated to Christology.

Fascinating,
Rhema

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings @Jonathan_Gale

OK, two can play this game

It is not a game, which you probably realise.

I think you'll find it safe to have an intelligent interaction with Butch5 @Butch5 .

I am sure he is open to anything that might challenge his 'position' and understanding and at the same time to do so peacably and gently.
Let us all do likewise and allow each other a voice, as we ourselves would appreciate a voice also.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

"In the BEGINNING."

Not sure what you mean by this?

Look, John 1:1 simply emphasizes on Jesus's divine origin. The Word, logos, is NOT a unique title or name for Jesus, it's a very common word in the entire NT, it could refer to any piece of information like "word on the street". In John 1:1-3 this Word is both God's plan for salvation and the divine order of the universe, and this logos was there at the beginning. But make no mistake, the Word did not become flesh in the beginning, not until John 1:14 when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, that's when Jesus was conceived as a human being. So simply put, the Word was the nature of God and was with God at the beginning, but the INCARNATION of the Word was not at the beginning.

How did God's nature or plan become fresh? We also see in Revelation the Jesus is named, 'the Word of God'.

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.

 

[Butch5]

OK, two can play this game. "Before Abraham WAS, I AM." There, present tense. Satisfied?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I agree He existed prior to Abraham.