Trying to understand 1 John 3:7-10

[ShellBell]

Ummm...thanks.

 

[judge not]

Hello Judgenot.

What a marvelous letter is the letter to the Romans and such a powerful letter. Without any doubt
the most quoted letter from the Bible in Christian literature! Alas Judgenot, it is also the most
misunderstood letter in the entire Bible. For some unknown reason nearly everyone miss reads and
miss quotes the letter to the Romans.

You said Judgenot in post # 18.

I hope you were following Paul's argument when Paul made that statement.

Romans 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we
establish the Law.

Because if you were following Paul's train of thought you would have realised that
Paul was simply saying. That the law grants the knowledge of sin! Though we must
also be aware that the written law applies only to those 'under the law' (Hebrews).

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law,
so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the
Law comes the knowledge of sin.

So simple Judgenot, Paul is talking about the Jewish preoccupation with the written law.
Paul is telling the Jews that righteousness is not a consequence of obedience to the
written law. On the contrary Judgenot, the law makes a person aware that they are far
from the path of righteousness. Paul by no means is telling the Gentiles that they must
obey the law. If you have been taught this then you are gravely mistaken.

I must be reading another book other than the Bible.
Paul is speaking to gentiles:
1 Cor 7:19 -" circumcision is nothing ..but keeping (obeying) the commandments of God is what matters"
Rom 2:13 -" it will be those that obey the Law who will be declared righteous."

 

[DHC]

I must be reading another book other than the Bible.
Paul is speaking to gentiles:
1 Cor 7:19 -" circumcision is nothing ..but keeping (obeying) the commandments of God is what matters"
Rom 2:13 -" it will be those that obey the Law who will be declared righteous."

Hello Judgenot.

Thanks for the reply Judgenot.

I must be reading another book other than the Bible.

Well that must be how you picked up the idea that Gentiles were under the law.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law

Who is Paul referring to in the verse above Judgenot, i.e., 'those who are under the Law'.

 

[Barny]

Ummm...thanks.

Hi ShellBell,

No doubt all these differing answers are confusing.
By all means consider the points some have made here, but always remember that Christ is your teacher. Just trust in him.

1John 2:27
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him

Matt 23:8-10
But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

 

[Barny]

• So any wrong that we do after receiving Christ is not counted as sin to be charged against the new creation .. That's right, wrong doing (sin) we will commit. We will not "practice" it, we will be repentant of it but, sin non-the-less. See here...you said it yourself....future sins! But no condemnation for them!

Hi RJ,

While I'm still considering the point you make about Rom 3:25, I ask you to likewise consider some contradictions in what you understand about scripture.
Your quote above is similar to your earlier post below.
I'll address these issues individually.

• The key here is "makes a practice of sinninig". This is talking about willfull , un-repentant sin. Example: a homosexual that says they are Christian, has Christ in them but has gay pride and is totally un-repentant of their sin (practice sinning), this is not of God and no Christian at all. There will certainly be homosexual Christians go to heaven, because they are repentant and working on not sinning but still may be struggling with ceratin aspects of that sin. This would not be different with any other sin.

Various Bible versions say in 1John 3, Christians"cannot sin", as opposed to "do not practice sin".
I see no conflict here as the term "practice" is defined in terms to support "cannot", as well as in the context that you describe.
Below are definitions of "practice"
1.To do or perform habitually or customarily; make a habit of
2.To do or perform (something) repeatedly in order to acquire or polish a skill:
3.To give lessons or repeated instructions to; drill
4.To work at, especially as a profession:
5.To carry out in action;

You seem to go with definition No: 1 which then puts some Bible versions at odds with others. This then leads to the issue where one is having to choose which Bible version to discard.

Whereas I go with definition No: 5, which is consistent with "cannot sin" in the various other Bible versions. Hence no need to discard other Bible versions as they are consistent.

You use the example of an unrepentant homosexual Christian being one who "practices" sin, claiming that such are lost.
Whilst we both agree that Christians do tend to show improvement in lifestyle behavior, I see that you take your point to an extreme.

Here are the issues I see in your post.
Firstly "sin" is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
You use the example of homosexuality as "sin".
But lets take another example, such as the Sabbath.
Are you keeping the Saturday Sabbath as described in the OT?
The answer is, of course, no.
Fact is no Christians do this (even the legalists). Hence we see that by what you have mistakenly understood about "practice" sin, you even condemn yourself and all other Christians as we all habitually practice the "sin" of not keeping the Sabbath holy. And we're not repenting of this either. We're supposedly "lost", as you put it.

Another issue I see with your post is that we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Ga; 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.) so how can Christians even be charged with sin/transgression of the law when we're not under it? We cannot be charged with sin as "whatever the law says it says to those under it", Rom 3:19.
Hence we see in scripture that we "cannot sin" (1John 3:9.), and that we've "ceased from sin"(1Pet 4:1.) .


Finally, another issue is that of repentance of sin, that you speak of.
Our repentance was of "dead works" of self-righteousness.
Heb 6:1
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

This was a once only repentance, as shown in Heb 6:4-6.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

So we see in scripture that repentance was a once only turning away from "dead works" of self-righteousness through works of the law (which only resulted in one being condemned as a sinner, deserving of the death penalty).

• Take a look at Romans 7 and read about how Paul struggled with sin, how he could'nt always do what he wanted to and did things he didn't want to do. That is why he followed up with Roman 8:1.

You misunderstand Rom 7.
The struggle Paul (and all Christians) have with sin is also described in Heb 12:1.
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

What "sin" is it that so easily besets us?
See Heb 12:15-17
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Falling short of the glory of God is unbelief in Jesus. Unbelief in Jesus is the "sin" that they world is convicted of, John 16:9.
How does one fall from grace of God?
Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Hence we see many scriptures warning us not to turn back to the law to determine righteousness. We cannot even mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Hence Christians cannot be charged with the sin of transgression of the law (1John 3:4.) as we're not under the law for righteousness.
We cannot be charged with the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17.) as our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).
We cannot be charged with the sin of unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9.) as we do believe on him.

The struggle that is described in Rom 7, is the battle between the flesh (which seeks to establish it's own righteousness) verses the spirit (which submits to God's righteousness).
This is the "good fight of faith" that all Christians go through. To continue to believe on Jesus.
Paul succeeded in this fight of faith.
2Tim 4:8
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

And he did this "without spot, blameless" as God command's us.
1Tim 6:12-15
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession (confess Jesus with your mouth, Rom 10:9.) in the presence of many witnesses.I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,that you keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing

Also note Gal 2:15
We who are (spiritual) Jews by nature (having circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:28), and not sinners of the Gentiles

Here Paul describes himself and all other Christians as "not sinners". Clearly Paul is not describing himself as a sinner in Rom 7.

I draw your attention to Rom 8:10.
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead (by faith, crucified with Christ)because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Christians are a new creation. Our life is hid with Christ in God.
That physical part of us is already dead (by faith) because of sin. Hence we should not be judging ourselves as a sinner based on it's flawed lifestyle. It's already dead, by faith.

Instead we should see Christ in ourselves and other Christians.
And in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.

 

[RJ]

Hi RJ,

While I'm still considering the point you make about Rom 3:25, I ask you to likewise consider some contradictions in what you understand about scripture.
Your quote above is similar to your earlier post below.
I'll address these issues individually.


Various Bible versions say in 1John 3, Christians"cannot sin", as opposed to "do not practice sin".
I see no conflict here as the term "practice" is defined in terms to support "cannot", as well as in the context that you describe.
Below are definitions of "practice"
1.To do or perform habitually or customarily; make a habit of
2.To do or perform (something) repeatedly in order to acquire or polish a skill:
3.To give lessons or repeated instructions to; drill
4.To work at, especially as a profession:
5.To carry out in action;

You seem to go with definition No: 1 which then puts some Bible versions at odds with others. This then leads to the issue where one is having to choose which Bible version to discard.

Whereas I go with definition No: 5, which is consistent with "cannot sin" in the various other Bible versions. Hence no need to discard other Bible versions as they are consistent.

You use the example of an unrepentant homosexual Christian being one who "practices" sin, claiming that such are lost.
Whilst we both agree that Christians do tend to show improvement in lifestyle behavior, I see that you take your point to an extreme.

Here are the issues I see in your post.
Firstly "sin" is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
You use the example of homosexuality as "sin".
But lets take another example, such as the Sabbath.
Are you keeping the Saturday Sabbath as described in the OT?
The answer is, of course, no.
Fact is no Christians do this (even the legalists). Hence we see that by what you have mistakenly understood about "practice" sin, you even condemn yourself and all other Christians as we all habitually practice the "sin" of not keeping the Sabbath holy. And we're not repenting of this either. We're supposedly "lost", as you put it.

Another issue I see with your post is that we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Ga; 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.) so how can Christians even be charged with sin/transgression of the law when we're not under it? We cannot be charged with sin as "whatever the law says it says to those under it", Rom 3:19.
Hence we see in scripture that we "cannot sin" (1John 3:9.), and that we've "ceased from sin"(1Pet 4:1.) .


Finally, another issue is that of repentance of sin, that you speak of.
Our repentance was of "dead works" of self-righteousness.
Heb 6:1
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

This was a once only repentance, as shown in Heb 6:4-6.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

So we see in scripture that repentance was a once only turning away from "dead works" of self-righteousness through works of the law (which only resulted in one being condemned as a sinner, deserving of the death penalty).



You misunderstand Rom 7.
The struggle Paul (and all Christians) have with sin is also described in Heb 12:1.
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

What "sin" is it that so easily besets us?
See Heb 12:15-17
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Falling short of the glory of God is unbelief in Jesus. Unbelief in Jesus is the "sin" that they world is convicted of, John 16:9.
How does one fall from grace of God?
Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Hence we see many scriptures warning us not to turn back to the law to determine righteousness. We cannot even mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Hence Christians cannot be charged with the sin of transgression of the law (1John 3:4.) as we're not under the law for righteousness.
We cannot be charged with the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17.) as our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).
We cannot be charged with the sin of unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9.) as we do believe on him. The struggle that is described in Rom 7, is the battle between the flesh (which seeks to establish it's own righteousness) verses the spirit (which submits to God's righteousness).
This is the "good fight of faith" that all Christians go through. To continue to believe on Jesus.

Also note Gal 2:15
We who are (spiritual) Jews by nature (having circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:28), and not sinners of the Gentiles

Here Paul describes himself and all other Christians as "not sinners". Clearly Paul is not describing himself as a sinner in Rom 7.

I draw your attention to Rom 8:10.
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead (by faith, crucified with Christ)because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Christians are a new creation. Our life is hid with Christ in God.
That physical part of us is already dead (by faith) because of sin. Hence we should not be judging ourselves as a sinner based on it's flawed lifestyle. It's already dead, by faith.

Instead we should see Christ in ourselves and other Christians.
And in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.

You have so much here, that it is very hard to reply with out it being way too long of a response. I tried to use the example of "Agape" love; who among us can do this type of love 24/7, which would be a requirement of us if we are to say "we have no sin"! You have been taught or learned that that there is no sin in you.You say, I have no sin.I certainly do not practice sin or sin without a repentant heart about it. I say sin still exists in me but because of the one who is also in me, there is no condemnation.
Because of the finality of the cross and though we should have a repentant heart, I see no reason to ask for forgiveness every day. But:

• What if we forget a day, then what happens?
• What church do you go to? Like so many Christians in the world, many recite the Lord's Prayer often; why is it they "ask for forgiveness of their sins as we forgive others"?
• And in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.[/QUOTE] Yes, as opposed to the Priests before him, Jesus took away sins and then sat down. In him there is no sin that God sees, he just sees the righteousness of his son. It is not that we are with out sin but, with Christ in us, God justifies us..."just as if we never have sinned."... not that there is no sin.
• Again, you say you have no sin. To me that means you never sin anymore and you do this 24/7, the rest of your life without failure...not one little transgression...never! I am not sure how you do that pefectly but that is your cross to bear. Or, somehow we still agree...you still have your failures with this no sin status but when you do , there is no condemnation.
• I have no scripture per se but, think about this, what actually is sin? It is much more than any law or commandment. It is anything that separates us from a perfect God. To eventually exist is God's realm, we must be perfect and, I don't know about you but, I am not quite there yet. I look at it this way: Sin is anything God is not, think about that!
• So, yes we can still sin: 1 John 2:1
• Regardless, we have beat this poor dog to death and I am done. Though I don't agree with the you, I resepct your belief and I hope you can respect mine.

 

[RJ]

Hi RJ,

While I'm still considering the point you make about Rom 3:25, I ask you to likewise consider some contradictions in what you understand about scripture.
Your quote above is similar to your earlier post below.
I'll address these issues individually.


Various Bible versions say in 1John 3, Christians"cannot sin", as opposed to "do not practice sin".
I see no conflict here as the term "practice" is defined in terms to support "cannot", as well as in the context that you describe.
Below are definitions of "practice"
1.To do or perform habitually or customarily; make a habit of
2.To do or perform (something) repeatedly in order to acquire or polish a skill:
3.To give lessons or repeated instructions to; drill
4.To work at, especially as a profession:
5.To carry out in action;

You seem to go with definition No: 1 which then puts some Bible versions at odds with others. This then leads to the issue where one is having to choose which Bible version to discard.

Whereas I go with definition No: 5, which is consistent with "cannot sin" in the various other Bible versions. Hence no need to discard other Bible versions as they are consistent.

You use the example of an unrepentant homosexual Christian being one who "practices" sin, claiming that such are lost.
Whilst we both agree that Christians do tend to show improvement in lifestyle behavior, I see that you take your point to an extreme.

Here are the issues I see in your post.
Firstly "sin" is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
You use the example of homosexuality as "sin".
But lets take another example, such as the Sabbath.
Are you keeping the Saturday Sabbath as described in the OT?
The answer is, of course, no.
Fact is no Christians do this (even the legalists). Hence we see that by what you have mistakenly understood about "practice" sin, you even condemn yourself and all other Christians as we all habitually practice the "sin" of not keeping the Sabbath holy. And we're not repenting of this either. We're supposedly "lost", as you put it.

Another issue I see with your post is that we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Ga; 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.) so how can Christians even be charged with sin/transgression of the law when we're not under it? We cannot be charged with sin as "whatever the law says it says to those under it", Rom 3:19.
Hence we see in scripture that we "cannot sin" (1John 3:9.), and that we've "ceased from sin"(1Pet 4:1.) .


Finally, another issue is that of repentance of sin, that you speak of.
Our repentance was of "dead works" of self-righteousness.
Heb 6:1
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

This was a once only repentance, as shown in Heb 6:4-6.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

So we see in scripture that repentance was a once only turning away from "dead works" of self-righteousness through works of the law (which only resulted in one being condemned as a sinner, deserving of the death penalty).



You misunderstand Rom 7.
The struggle Paul (and all Christians) have with sin is also described in Heb 12:1.
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

What "sin" is it that so easily besets us?
See Heb 12:15-17
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Falling short of the glory of God is unbelief in Jesus. Unbelief in Jesus is the "sin" that they world is convicted of, John 16:9.
How does one fall from grace of God?
Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Hence we see many scriptures warning us not to turn back to the law to determine righteousness. We cannot even mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Hence Christians cannot be charged with the sin of transgression of the law (1John 3:4.) as we're not under the law for righteousness.
We cannot be charged with the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17.) as our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).
We cannot be charged with the sin of unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9.) as we do believe on him. The struggle that is described in Rom 7, is the battle between the flesh (which seeks to establish it's own righteousness) verses the spirit (which submits to God's righteousness).
This is the "good fight of faith" that all Christians go through. To continue to believe on Jesus.

Also note Gal 2:15
We who are (spiritual) Jews by nature (having circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:28), and not sinners of the Gentiles

Here Paul describes himself and all other Christians as "not sinners". Clearly Paul is not describing himself as a sinner in Rom 7.

I draw your attention to Rom 8:10.
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead (by faith, crucified with Christ)because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Christians are a new creation. Our life is hid with Christ in God.
That physical part of us is already dead (by faith) because of sin. Hence we should not be judging ourselves as a sinner based on it's flawed lifestyle. It's already dead, by faith.

Instead we should see Christ in ourselves and other Christians.
And in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.

You have so much here, that it is very hard to reply with out it being way too long of a response. I tried to use the example of "Agape" love; who among us can do this type of love 24/7, which would be a requirement of us if we are to say "we have no sin"! You have been taught or learned that that there is no sin in you.You say, I have no sin.I certainly do not practice sin or sin without a repentant heart about it. I say sin still exists in me but because of the one who is also in me, there is no condemnation.
Because of the finality of the cross and though we should have a repentant heart, I see no reason to ask for forgiveness every day.

• What if we forget a day, then what happens?
• What church do you go to? Like so many Christians in the world, many recite the Lord's Prayer often; why is it they "ask for forgiveness of their sins as we forgive others"?
• And in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.[/QUOTE] Yes, as opposed to the Priests before him, Jesus took away sins and then sat down. In him there is no sin that God sees, he just sees the righteousness of his son. It is not that we are with out sin but, with Christ in us, God justifies us..."just as if we never have sinned."... not that there is no sin.
• Again, you say you have no sin. To me that means you never sin anymore and you do this 24/7, the rest of your life without failure...not one little transgression...never! I am not sure how you do that pefectly but that is your cross to bear. Or, somehow we still agree...you still have your failures withis no sin status but when you do , there is no condemnation.
• I have no scripture per se but, think about this, what actually is sin? It is much more than any law or commandment. It is anything that separates us from a perfect God. To eventually exist is God's realm, we must be perfect and, I don't know about you but, I am not quite there yet. I look at it this way: Sin is anything God is not, think about that!
• Regardless, we have beat this poor dog to death and I am done. Though I don't agree with the you, I resepct your belief and I hope you can respect mine.

 

[Barny]

You have so much here, that it is very hard to reply with out it being way too long of a response. I tried to use the example of "Agape" love; who among us can do this type of love 24/7, which would be a requirement of us if we are to say "we have no sin"! You have been taught or learned that that there is no sin in you.You say, I have no sin.I certainly do not practice sin or sin without a repentant heart about it. I say sin still exists in me but because of the one who is also in me, there is no condemnation.
Because of the finality of the cross and though we should have a repentant heart, I see no reason to ask for forgiveness every day. But:

• What if we forget a day, then what happens?
• What church do you go to? Like so many Christians in the world, many recite the Lord's Prayer often; why is it they "ask for forgiveness of their sins as we forgive others"?
• And in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.

• Yes, as opposed to the Priests before him, Jesus took away sins and then sat down. In him there is no sin that God sees, he just sees the righteousness of his son. It is not that we are with out sin but, with Christ in us, God justifies us..."just as if we never have sinned."... not that there is no sin.
• Again, you say you have no sin. To me that means you never sin anymore and you do this 24/7, the rest of your life without failure...not one little transgression...never! I am not sure how you do that pefectly but that is your cross to bear. Or, somehow we still agree...you still have your failures withis no sin status but when you do , there is no condemnation.
• I have no scripture per se but, think about this, what actually is sin? It is much more than any law or commandment. It is anything that separates us from a perfect God. To eventually exist is God's realm, we must be perfect and, I don't know about you but, I am not quite there yet. I look at it this way: Sin is anything God is not, think about that!
• Regardless, we have beat this poor dog to death and I am done. Though I don't agree with the you, I resepct your belief and I hope you can respect mine.

To quickly answer, as it's late night here in Australia.
What if we forget to repent of some wrong/sin?
That is a problem for those who follow such doctrine, as scripture does not speak of this.

I do not follow any church. I sometimes visit a local church, which could be Baptist, AOG, Lutheran, penticostal, whatever. I have also attended a local bible study group should they have a meeting.

I'm in no way saying that I'm perfect in this physical life. If you check back through my posts you will see this.
In fact that physical part of me is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
I see Christians as a new creation. Hence I do not look or judge them by their physical failings.
It's no longer I that live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20. This applies to all Christians.
And it's Christ in us that God sees. Therein lies the reason why scripture says we cannot sin.

The physical is not perfect.
But the new creation has been perfected forever thanks to Christ's sacrifice.
Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Sin is rebellion against God.
If we do not believe on Jesus (the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.) then we're in rebellion, being unrighteous, unholy, imperfect, and judged under the law of righteousness as a transgressor/Sinner.

 

[judge not]

Hello Judgenot.

Thanks for the reply Judgenot.

Well that must be how you picked up the idea that Gentiles were under the law.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law

Who is Paul referring to in the verse above Judgenot, i.e., 'those who are under the Law'.

There are two ways in which God reveals His standards of behavior-the law- the first is through nature.-Romans 1:18-20, the second is thru scripture
Paul is addressing the gentiles
And he is not speaking of the Israelites he is speaking about all of mankind, Jews and gentiles alike.
both Israelites and gentiles are under the penalty of the law-guilty of sin-of transgressing God's Law
we are talking about are the Ten Commandments. Romans 2:14-15
Paul spent most of his ministry teaching obedience to the law-the ten commandments, not the law of Moses.
Romans 15:18 - again talking to the gentiles- " ......in leading the gentiles to obey God "
obey God how? By keeping the law -the 10 Commandments.
when we repent, we are redeemed, when we are converted and receive the Holy Spirit we are under grace but we must obey the law as proof of our faith and to continue the struggles of the evil pulls of the world.

 

[DHC]

There are two ways in which God reveals His standards of behavior-the law- the first is through nature.-Romans 1:18-20, the second is thru scripture
Paul is addressing the gentiles
And he is not speaking of the Israelites he is speaking about all of mankind, Jews and gentiles alike.
both Israelites and gentiles are under the penalty of the law-guilty of sin-of transgressing God's Law
we are talking about are the Ten Commandments. Romans 2:14-15
Paul spent most of his ministry teaching obedience to the law-the ten commandments, not the law of Moses.
Romans 15:18 - again talking to the gentiles- " ......in leading the gentiles to obey God "
obey God how? By keeping the law -the 10 Commandments.
when we repent, we are redeemed, when we are converted and receive the Holy Spirit we are under grace but we must obey the law as proof of our faith and to continue the struggles of the evil pulls of the world.

Hello Judgenot.

Your previous post contains a number of errors, I suggest you start reading Romans without the aid of commentaries.

Paul is addressing the gentiles

Paul is addressing the Gentiles and the Jews, Judgenot. You quoted from (Romans 2:14-15), so we will examine this passage.

Romans 2:14
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law...

There it is in black and white Judgenot, 'these, not having the law'!
Paul is addressing the Jews and using the term 'Gentile'.

I will stop at this point judgenot and wait for your reply.

 

[RJ]

No that would be past, present and future sins.
1 John 2:1

 

[judge not]

Hello Judgenot.

Your previous post contains a number of errors, I suggest you start reading Romans without the aid of commentaries.

Paul is addressing the Gentiles and the Jews, Judgenot. You quoted from (Romans 2:14-15), so we will examine this passage.

Romans 2:14
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law...

There it is in black and white Judgenot, 'these, not having the law'!
Paul is addressing the Jews and using the term 'Gentile'.

I stand corrected, Paul is only referring to gentiles in general but one point is that they fall under the law by nature rather than by scripture. do they still not come under the penalty .of the law?

and as mentioned earlier in Romans 15:18 is that not saying that the gentiles need to obey the Law?-and what Law are we talking about?

 

[DHC]

Hello Judgenot.

Your previous post contains a number of errors, I suggest you start reading Romans without the aid of commentaries.

Paul is addressing the Gentiles and the Jews, Judgenot. You quoted from (Romans 2:14-15), so we will examine this passage.

Romans 2:14
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law...

Paul is only referring to gentiles in general but one point is that they fall under the law by nature rather than by scripture. do they still not come under the penalty .of the law?

Hello Judge not.

You asked a very difficult question.

but one point is that they fall under the law by nature rather than by scripture. do they still not come under
the penalty of the law?

We know that the Gentiles were were never under the law given at Mt Sinai. So how are the Gentiles judged
by God, given that they did not receive the written law. Paul actually explains how the process of judgement
was initiated by the fall of Adam and this penalty applied to all of mankind.

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin
15 For if by the transgression of the one the many died
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men
19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners

Even Gentile infants were subject to the condemnation of the death penalty even though they had not the
opportunity to commit any sin. The death penalty was instituted by God and applied to all flesh and was not
a consequence of any level of disobedience. This is the argument that Paul advances in chapter five of Romans.
It follows of course that the law itself is only of secondary consideration given that we all received the death penalty.

So we conclude that the penalty of death prevailed due to the singular disobedient act of Adam.

 

[judge not]

Hello Judge not.

You asked a very difficult question.

We know that the Gentiles were were never under the law given at Mt Sinai. So how are the Gentiles judged
by God, given that they did not receive the written law. Paul actually explains how the process of judgement
was initiated by the fall of Adam and this penalty applied to all of mankind.

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin
15 For if by the transgression of the one the many died
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men
19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners

Even Gentile infants were subject to the condemnation of the death penalty even though they had not the
opportunity to commit any sin. The death penalty was instituted by God and applied to all flesh and was not
a consequence of any level of disobedience. This is the argument that Paul advances in chapter five of Romans.
It follows of course that the law itself is only of secondary consideration given that we all received the death penalty.

So we conclude that the penalty of death prevailed due to the singular disobedient act of Adam.

I have to disagree that infants are born guilty of sin.
Many of God's laws regarding standards of behavior are revealed in the nature of things.
At the beginning when Cain slew Abel he knew he had done something wrong-there was no law yet.
People like the ancient Sodomites had not received any Law-yet God destroyed them-why?
Because they engaged in activities that were contrary to nature and.they should have known better.- Romans 1:18-20
God judged those by the natural laws-the law revealed in nature is a witness against the gentiles.
The law in scripture is a witness against the Israelites.

but an infant, incapable of morally knowing right or wrong or sin, does not transgress the law to qualify, so to speak, to be under the penalty of the law.
Is not Paul talking about those who sin are guilty of the death penalty because of Adam's transgression..Babies can't be in that class.
No one is guilty until they first sin.
A sinful nature is not genetic-bad behavior can be taught to the next generation by example or direct instruction but is not passed on genetically.
Ezekiel 18 -20 -" .....the son shall not bear the inequity or guilt of the father..."
How does that reconcile with the original sin doctrine of many Christians?

 

[RJ]

I have to disagree that infants are born guilty of sin.
Many of God's laws regarding standards of behavior are revealed in the nature of things.
At the beginning when Cain slew Abel he knew he had done something wrong-there was no law yet.
People like the ancient Sodomites had not received any Law-yet God destroyed them-why?
Because they engaged in activities that were contrary to nature and.they should have known better.- Romans 1:18-20
God judged those by the natural laws-the law revealed in nature is a witness against the gentiles.
The law in scripture is a witness against the Israelites.

but an infant, incapable of morally knowing right or wrong or sin, does not transgress the law to qualify, so to speak, to be under the penalty of the law.
Is not Paul talking about those who sin are guilty of the death penalty because of Adam's transgression..Babies can't be in that class.
No one is guilty until they first sin.
A sinful nature is not genetic-bad behavior can be taught to the next generation by example or direct instruction but is not passed on genetically.
Ezekiel 18 -20 -" .....the son shall not bear the inequity or guilt of the father..."
How does that reconcile with the original sin doctrine of many Christians?

Matthew 19:14....hinder them not for the kingdom of God belong to such as these!

 

[DHC]

Hello Judge not.

I noticed that you are very interested in this topic as your previous post contains so many points to consider.
I will endeavor to answer each of the points that you raised, and I thank you for your reply, Judge not.

I have to disagree that infants are born guilty of sin.

I never claimed that infants 'are born guilty of sin'. I actually said the following,
'Even Gentile infants were subject to the condemnation of the death penalty even though
they had not the opportunity to commit any sin'. Infants die Judgenot, not because of their
sin but because 'death' is the penalty that all mankind is under. All flesh is subject to
death as Paul claimed '15 For if by the transgression of the one the many died'. This deathly
outcome has nothing to do with our behavior, for death reigns as a result of Adam's offense!
This is what the scripture states Judge not.

Many of God's laws regarding standards of behavior are revealed in the nature of things.

Yes Judge not, I agree, but this is of only secondary importance, since all are under the
sentence of death regardless. Whether you obey an inner moral set of laws or an external
written code or even both, you will die. Death is the enemy of mankind Judge not.

At the beginning when Cain slew Abel he knew he had done something wrong-there was no law yet.

Correct Judge not, but they both were under the same sentence of death anyway. This is splitting
hairs so as to speak, since there exists the fundamental problem. In that flesh and blood does
not inherit the kingdom of Heaven. Mankind was destined to die purely because of Adams offense.
'18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men'.

You have already been condemned to death and you cannot reverse the penalty introduced for Adam's
initial offence. You were not born in the garden of Eden precisely because Adam was evicted. Our destiny
was preset by Adam's offense, Judge not.

No one is guilty until they first sin.

Your statement is a theological argument that is contrary to the revelation of the scripture. I have quoted Paul's
statements regarding the death penalty and you do need to address this issue. How many sins a person commits
is irrelevant.

A sinful nature is not genetic-bad behavior can be taught to the next generation by example or direct instruction but
is not passed on genetically.

Whether or not our sinful nature has a genetic disposition is besides the point. Death is the enemy and death resulted
from Adam's offense. If you can lock onto the fundamental problem that mankind has. Then you will be able to understand
that whether you are a Jew or a Greek, good or bad. All mankind is under the same sentence of death.

Romans 3
9 for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written, 'there is none righteous, not even one'

So with or without the law the result is the same. Without or without a sinful nature, the outcome is exactly the same
for everyone. Again flesh and blood does not inherit eternal LIFE.

Ezekiel 18 -20 -" .....the son shall not bear the inequity or guilt of the father..." How does that reconcile with
the original sin doctrine of many Christians?

I am not advocating the 'original sin' doctrine or any other theological argument. A son cannot be held responsible for
the sin of the father, though both will die. When God declares that the soul that repents will live Judge not. God is always
speaking within the framework of God's deliverance through and in the messiah. A good person cannot gain life, a good
person dies the same as everyone else. From dust they came and to dust they will return.

When Abram was credited with righteousness by God, it was only due to Abram trusting in God's promise. This
credit that Abram received was before Abram was circumcised. Before Abram had actually completed any good
works. This same credit system applies to us Judge not and is not based on our behavior or lifestyle. Life is accessible
only in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Only the Gospel contains the elixir of life itself.

 

[DHC]

Matthew 19:14....hinder them not for the kingdom of God belong to such as these!

Hello Rj nice to hear from you regarding a previous post of mine. Though you may need to add some
clarity to your quotation so that I may understand what it is you are implying.

 

[RJ]

Hello Rj nice to hear from you regarding a previous post of mine. Though you may need to add some
clarity to your quotation so that I may understand what it is you are implying.

Sorry, I didn't realize it was that vague. It's all about the children:

• I understand God's premise that Adam's sin nature follows us all and, because of the first Adam, the second Adam died for the sins of the entire world.
• I used to struggle somewhat about the children dieing with sin and what was to come of them.
• You made a statement to Judgenot that: "I never claimed that infants 'are born guilty of sin'."...and I was addressing that.
• Absolutely because of the pecking order in that day, the Disciples attempted to hold the children back. Can you imagine, the little children, with their purity of heart and lack of consciousness about sin, how they must have been drawn to Jesus like flies to honey! Can you imagine how much un-soiled faith they had in him?
• When the Disciples held them back, Jesus scolded them and said no, hinder them not for they belong to the kngdom of God.
• For the lack of a better explanation, I think that, until the age of innocence is over, children are born saved. Certainly, the Bible tells us that if we can't come to God as little children, we can't inherit the kingdom of God but, yet he said they have!
• Where do all of us think the 5o million aborted babies are, since Roe vs. Wade?

 

[DHC]

Sorry, I didn't realize it was that vague. It's all about the children:

• I understand God's premise that Adam's sin nature follows us all and, because of the first Adam, the second Adam died for the sins of the entire world.
• I used to struggle somewhat about the children dieing with sin and what was to come of them.
• You made a statement to Judgenot that: "I never claimed that infants 'are born guilty of sin'."...and I was addressing that.
• Absolutely because of the pecking order in that day, the Disciples attempted to hold the children back. Can you imagine, the little children, with their purity of heart and lack of consciousness about sin, how they must have been drawn to Jesus like flies to honey! Can you imagine how much un-soiled faith they had in him?
• When the Disciples held them back, Jesus scolded them and said no, hinder them not for they belong to the kngdom of God.
• For the lack of a better explanation, I think that, until the age of innocence is over, children are born saved. Certainly, the Bible tells us that if we can't come to God as little children, we can't inherit the kingdom of God but, yet he said they have!
• Where do all of us think the 5o million aborted babies are, since Roe vs. Wade?

Hello RJ.

Good reply but you may have misunderstood what I actually said. This topic is extremely
complicated due to the very diverse theological opinion that accompanies the letter to the
Romans. Also, my reference to 'Gentile infants' was probably unwise in hindsight RJ.

When I said 'even Gentile infants were subject to the condemnation of the death penalty'.
The intention was to magnify the fact that death was introduced through Adam. Hence
all humanity will undergo a physical death, this physical death has no relationship to
the sinful nature of the descendants of Adam.

Death was introduced by Adam's offence, so death applies to all mankind. Even infants
die even though they have not had the opportunity to sin. Death itself is the condemnation
that Adam introduced by his first offence.

'15 For if by the transgression of the one the many died'

You may have been side tracked RJ, because I mentioned the little ones. But physical
death is no more evident than when little ones undergo this condemnation. Because
little ones have not had the opportunity to obey or disobey God. What a person does
or does not do in relationship to God, is outside of the federal judgement of God upon
all mankind irrespective of age. Physical death has reigned since Adam and was initiated
by Adam, that was Paul's revelation in chapter five of Romans.

Let me state clearly RJ, that I was not discussing whether little ones go to heaven or not.
I was talking about the physical death, the condemnation by God upon all humanity from
the time of Adam. Our fate rested in the hands of Adam and Adam dropped the ball, hence
we all die, even infants die RJ. We have been destined to die and to be disobedient, for God
has bound us all over to disobedience and death.

 

[judge not]

Hello Judge not.

I noticed that you are very interested in this topic as your previous post contains so many points to consider.
I will endeavor to answer each of the points that you raised, and I thank you for your reply, Judge not.

I never claimed that infants 'are born guilty of sin'. I actually said the following,
'Even Gentile infants were subject to the condemnation of the death penalty even though
they had not the opportunity to commit any sin'. Infants die Judgenot, not because of their
sin but because 'death' is the penalty that all mankind is under. All flesh is subject to
death as Paul claimed '15 For if by the transgression of the one the many died'. This deathly
outcome has nothing to do with our behavior, for death reigns as a result of Adam's offense!
This is what the scripture states Judge not.

Yes Judge not, I agree, but this is of only secondary importance, since all are under the
sentence of death regardless. Whether you obey an inner moral set of laws or an external
written code or even both, you will die. Death is the enemy of mankind Judge not.

Correct Judge not, but they both were under the same sentence of death anyway. This is splitting
hairs so as to speak, since there exists the fundamental problem. In that flesh and blood does
not inherit the kingdom of Heaven. Mankind was destined to die purely because of Adams offense.
'18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men'.

You have already been condemned to death and you cannot reverse the penalty introduced for Adam's
initial offence. You were not born in the garden of Eden precisely because Adam was evicted. Our destiny
was preset by Adam's offense, Judge not.

Your statement is a theological argument that is contrary to the revelation of the scripture. I have quoted Paul's
statements regarding the death penalty and you do need to address this issue. How many sins a person commits
is irrelevant.

Whether or not our sinful nature has a genetic disposition is besides the point. Death is the enemy and death resulted
from Adam's offense. If you can lock onto the fundamental problem that mankind has. Then you will be able to understand
that whether you are a Jew or a Greek, good or bad. All mankind is under the same sentence of death.

Romans 3
9 for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written, 'there is none righteous, not even one'

So with or without the law the result is the same. Without or without a sinful nature, the outcome is exactly the same
for everyone. Again flesh and blood does not inherit eternal LIFE.

I am not advocating the 'original sin' doctrine or any other theological argument. A son cannot be held responsible for
the sin of the father, though both will die. When God declares that the soul that repents will live Judge not. God is always
speaking within the framework of God's deliverance through and in the messiah. A good person cannot gain life, a good
person dies the same as everyone else. From dust they came and to dust they will return.

When Abram was credited with righteousness by God, it was only due to Abram trusting in God's promise. This
credit that Abram received was before Abram was circumcised. Before Abram had actually completed any good
works. This same credit system applies to us Judge not and is not based on our behavior or lifestyle. Life is accessible
only in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Only the Gospel contains the elixir of life itself.

Our past sins are redeemed by the death of Jesus and we are only saved by His resurrection. We are not saved by the blood of Christ.
When you say God declares that the soul that repents will live you are talking about eternal life, correct?
The guilt of the fathers begins and ends with the fathers/
The guilt and punishment only continues with the children as long as they continue in their sinful ways.
I would have to go with the idea that small children cannot choose to obey or disobey God-the babies, therefore no one is born under the penalty of the law, since we all come into this world as babies.,
Sin has to occur first. That's how I see Paul's comments on how Adam's sin relates to the human race.
Adam wasn't the first one to sin against God-that would be Lucifer.
Satan is the influence that causes mankind to lose fellowship with God
The fall of Adam resulted not in a change of human nature, because after creating us God declared us good, but in the loss of the supernatural element that is present only when man is in fellowship with God.