What does Jesus mean when he says

[brakelite]

Hello Brakelite.

You provided an interpretation of the following verses from Romans.

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Your interpretation is below.

"Now what is Paul saying here? Is he saying that we ought not seek after the law of righteousness? No, not at all. All Paul is saying
is that Israel sought after it in an incorrect manner. The Jews followed after the law of righteousness, but did not attain to it. Why not?
Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law."

How about we provide the previous verse to Romans 9:31 which should provide
a clearer interpretation.

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness,
attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

There you go Brakelite, the Gentiles attained righteousness by faith.
This is the same righteousness that Abraham was credited with.
Incidentally Abraham was reckoned righteous way before the law!

The Gentiles never had the law to follow in the first place. Hence the
Gentiles would never be able to pursue a 'law of righteousness'. Ever
wondered why a Gentile is called a Gentile?

The law as it was announced in an audible voice came later, yes. But let none presume that Abraham didn't obey God's commandments.That all he did was 'believe', and everything was hunky dory. No, no. Abraham was called by God in the first place because God knew that He would find in Abraham a responsive heart, and He confirmed this to Isaac when He said....

Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

But what is this righteousness that the Gentiles have attained to by faith? Let us go a little further in the book of Romans to the next chapter where we read:

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The righteousness of God is something besides a name. It is something far different from a form of words, or even the mere statement of a law. It is nothing less than the life and character of God.As there can not be sweetness apart from something that is sweet, so there is no such thing as abstract righteousness. Righteousness must necessarily be connected with some living being. But God alone is righteous. See Mark 10:18. Therefore wherever righteousness is, there God must be active. Righteousness is the essential characteristic of God.
The law of God, as written on the tables of stone, or in a book, is as perfect as it could possibly be. But there was just the same difference between that and the real law that there is between a photograph of a man and the man himself. It was but a shadow. There was no life in the written characters, and they could not do anything. They were simply the statement of that which exists only in the life of God.


If the Jews had not been ignorant of God's righteousness, they would not have attempted to establish a righteousness of their own. They tried to make God's righteousness submit to them, whereas they should have submitted to it. God's righteousness is active. It is his own life. Just as the air will rush into any place where there is an opening, so the righteous life of God will fill every heart that is open to receive it. And this righteous life of God can be nothing else but in perfect conformity to His laws. When men try to handle the law of God, they invariably pervert it, and fit it to their own ideas; the only way to have its perfection appear is to submit to it, allowing it to rule. Then it will work itself out in the life. <q>It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good-pleasure.</q> Phil. 2:13.

The end or object of the law is the righteousness which it requires. So it is said that Christ is the end of the law <q>for righteousness.</q> The law of God is the righteousness of God. See Isa. 51:6, 7. But this righteousness is the real life of God himself, and the words of the law are only the shadow of it. That life is found only in Christ, for he alone declares the righteousness of God. Rom 3:24, 25. His life is the law of God, since God was in him. That which the Jews had only in form, is found in fact only in Christ. In him the end of the law is found.
Only a study of the life of Christ will reveal the righteousness which the law of God requires. To whom is Christ the end of the law for righteousness? <q>To every one that believeth.</q> Christ dwells in the heart by faith. Eph. 3:17. The perfect righteousness of the law is found only in him. It is in him in absolute perfection. Therefore since Christ dwells in the heart of the believer, in him only is the end of the law attained. <q>This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.</q> John 6:29. <q>With the heart man believeth unto righteousness.</q>

 

[DHC]

Hi DHC, that is quite easily answered, for we know that the ceremonial law was certainly fulfilled through the ministry, both earthly and heavenly, and death and resurrection of Christ. The moral law however can never be abolished destroyed or abrogated, for as the Psalmist says,
Psalm 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

Unless of course David you are suggesting the ceremonial law still applies? What I am basically saying David is that the rest of scripture testifies to the permanence of the Ten Commandments, and to the temporary nature of the law of Moses.

Hello Brakelite.

Our progess is slow and laborious but we will eventually determine the meaning
of the phrase 'the law'.

Further to our correspondence on the meaning of the phrase 'the law'.
As the phrase appears in the following quotation.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets;

You claimed that the phrase 'the law' means the ten commandments.

Now how do you deal with two other commandments listed below?

Deuteronomy 6:5
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with
all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people,
but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Have these been abolished Brakelite?

 

[Barny]

By saying that the "end" of the law means the law's finish, is an error. Rather, the end in this context means its 'goal'. The end purpose of the law is Christ.

You seem to miss the point in Rom 10:4 that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. That is righteousness is not to be determined by whether we perfectly obey the law or not. Now it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5 (which is something that legalists have great difficulty with).

Note also the scriptures below which all confirm that Christ is the end of the law as described in Rom 10:4.
Gal 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 3:24,25
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
1Tim 1:9
knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners
2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

When Jesus said to the woman, "go and sin no more", He meant exactly that.

"Go and keep the commandments. Particularly the one you have had difficulty with, the 7th

.

Regarding the 7th commandment on adultery, this addresses the very issue that legalists transgress on. Note James 4:4 and 12 in it's address to legalists. They are addressed as adulterers. This refers to their spiritual adultery.

And I agree with Jesus that we should sin no more. And scripture explains to us how this is possible. In believing on Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness and we're no longer under the law hence cannot be charged with it's transgression (as I explained in my previous post).

Jesus says the same elsewhere. 1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Faith that Jesus' power is sufficient to keep us from sinning ever again! Now friend, if you do not have that kind of faith, if you don't have that much belief, then you believe that Jesus power is insufficient to overcome sin, that the flesh is greater than God's creative power, and man is doomed to continue as slaves to sin till the day he dies. But this is not what the Bible teaches.
What Is Sin? <q>Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law.</q> 1 John 3:4.
<q>All unrighteousness is sin.</q> 1 John 5:17.

Christians keep his commandments to believe on Jesus and to love one another, as described in 1John 3:22,23.
And as I explained in previous posts, Christians have overcome sin.

But you go back to the law of sin and death instead, as thus make yourself a sinner. The doctrine you follow brings people back under the law to prove righteousness and unless one keeps the law perfectly, then they're unrighteous (as your post shows).

As I showed before, anyone who brings themselves back under the law makes themselves a transgressor/Sinner (Gal 2:18).
There are many under the law who never knew Christ to begin with.
But we see also in scripture where some did have the knowledge of the truth of the gospel of Christ yet rejected it choosing to sin willfully (by turning back to the law, Gal 2:18), and thereby treading underfoot the Son of God (Heb 10:26-29).

Doctrines that turn back to the law arguing that we're not righteous unless we demonstrate perfect obedience to the law as proof, are a grievous error. Such doctrines deny righteousness by faith. It's like treating the blood of the covenant wherewith we were sanctified as an unholy thing (Heb 10:29).
For one to have received Christ, having been sanctified by his sacrifice and imputed with his righteousness, but then to turn back to the law to prove that we're righteousness, such is a great offense. It's referred to as sinning against your own body (of Christ) by fornicating with Hagar (righteousness by works of the law), 1Cor 6:15-19. It denies righteousness by faith.

What Is Righteousness? Righteousness is the opposite of sin, because <q>all unrighteousness is sin.</q> But <q>sin is the transgression of the law.</q> Therefore righteousness is the keeping of the law. So when we are exhorted to yield our members as instruments of righteousness unto God, it is the same as telling us to yield ourselves to obedience to the law.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

And how do we yield ourselves to obedience unto righteousness?
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. We believe on Jesus and thus our faith is counted for righteousness. How can we add to this? We can't!
It was Christ who obeyed the law perfectly. And it's Christ in us that God sees. Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. That is the righteous that believers (including the thief on the cross) have.

This is something that legalists always lose sight of.
For legalists righteousness is perfect obedience to the law. Thus they deny righteousness by faith.
For the legalists, Christ is a stumbling stone. They cannot see themselves as being righteous by simply believing on Jesus. That is rejected as merely "easy believism".
Thus they turn back to the law to prove righteousness. In doing this they make themselves transgressors/Sinners (Gal 2:18), as they fail to obey the law perfectly.

You said Barney:
Legalists makes themselves transgressors/sinners because whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19. As legalists are under the law then they can be charged with transgression/sin, and the death penalty applies. And as legalists fail to obey the law perfectly, then they make themselves transgressor/sinners (Gal 2:18).

To use Romans 3:19 as a reference to use the expression "under the law" is a mistake, as it does not really occur here. It should be <q>in the law,</q> as in Romans 2:12, for the Greek words are the same in both places. The words for <q>under the law</q> are entirely different. Why the translators have given us <q>under the law</q> in this place, and also in 1 Corinthians 9:21, where the term is also <q>in the law,</q> as noted in Young's Concordance, it is impossible to determine. There certainly is no reason for it. The rendering is purely arbitrary. What the verse before us really says is, <q>Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are in the law,</q> or, <q>within the sphere or jurisdiction of the law.</q>

It's interesting to see how you claim that God enables us, by faith, to perfectly keep the law (which no legalists do anyway) and that anyone who doubts this is not trusting God's power. But, above in your quote we see that you doubt that God, with His great power, is capable of giving us His word in English, hence we must turn to learning Greek instead.
I hope you can see the contradiction in your claims about how much we can trust in God.

The ideal place to reference "under the law" would be Romans 6:14,15. Many people are fond of quoting this expression, thinking that it forever absolves them from any observance of the law of God. Strange to say, this expression is used as a cover only for non-observance of the fourth commandment. Let's be honest Barney. If it weren't for the 4th commandment we wouldn't be having this discussion. Everyone agrees with the other 9, but repeat the fourth commandment to a man who objects to keeping the sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, and he will say, <q>We are not under the law.</q> Right? Yet that same man will quote the third commandment to a man whom he hears swearing, or the first and second against the heathen, and will acknowledge the sixth, seventh, and eighth commandments. Thus it appears that men do not really believe that the statement that they are not under the law unless they are reminded to keep holy the Sabbath day.

As I showed before, the doctrine you follow is about denying righteousness by faith and instead determining righteousness by works of the law. And as legalists fail to obey the law perfectly, they are thus transgressors of the law they seek to be under for righteousness. They make themselves sinners.

So what does "under the law" actually mean?
Sin has no dominion over those who yield themselves servants to righteousness, or to obedience to the law; because sin is the transgression of the law. Now read the whole of the fourteenth verse: <q>For sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law, but under grace.</q> That is to say, transgression of the law has no place in them who are not under the law. Then those who are not under the law are those who obey the law. Those who break it, are under it. Nothing can be plainer.

Again you miss the point that when our life is hid with Christ in God (salvation by grace) then there is no sin that can be charged against those who believe on Jesus.

It's the legalists who sin/transgress the law that they bring themselves under and thus become unrighteousness. They profess to know God but in works they deny Him, Tit 1:16.

Distressed by the threatenings of the law which we have broken, we flee for refuge to Christ, who is <q>full of grace and truth.</q> There we find freedom from sin. In him we not only find grace to cover all our sin, but we find the righteousness of the law because he is full of truth, and the law is the truth. Psalm. 119:142. Grace <q>reigns</q> through righteousness (or obedience to the law), unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I'm not sure what you claim here. It seems that your acknowledging that legalists fail to obey the law and therefore rely on grace to cover their transgressions each time they fail. This would be at odds with your points earlier in your post. Can you explain further?

 

[Brighthouse]

Ok brakelite Let me think how i can transfer stone into what you call love? The command to love i see, strange how they needed to be commanded to do this after all God brought them through! Even stranger is the fact they wanted God to justify them by there works instead of the wonderful grace he gave them in the Abraham Covenant! Just think!! Not like in the movie the ten commandment where they showed feeble people,there were no feeble people when the Lord brought his children out of Egypt!! No one died either! Not one! The reason loves covers the law,is not because of the law itself.

But rather Jesus himself covers it! Because only Jesus fullfilled it! I did my best in the Lord to show this to you,but you do not wish to see.So I do not think it is worth my time further to go on about this to you. And since i was never born a jew in the first place,the law never was made for me!( rom 2:12-16) I am a gentile. So why oh why would I wish to place myself under such bondage? For if i did as you say to do bro,then I would be doing the very same stupid thing the jews did back then!! And i would severe myself from my Lord Jesus!! Not me bro!! ( gal 5:4) The wonderful grace we see by God given freely under Abraham was trampled by the desire to work themselves for all God gave them! No wonder God was so angry!!

They choose for God to flip his coin on them! How dum is that? God's nature of love and grace,and they wanted God to justify them by there own works?? Saying to God himself that he was not enough for them??YIKES!! Many can and will twist the word how they wish to for themselves, i have a good friend of mine who does this all the time! he is a jew of course. When you read From exodus 19:8 and consider the great change in relationship God then made even unto Moses coming now in a thick cloud! A God who by himself brought his own people unto himself,only to have them say We will do! It is most difficult to see how God could anymore love his own people who spite upon his most wonderful name!

It is why they became slaves in the first place! Stiff necked hard heart! So God brought an end to themselves,by giving them what they wished for,and of course knowing all of this, had to make a way out for all of us because of the stupidity of his own people! Christ superior to Moses!! In every way!! heb 3:1-19!! For the law of Moses was fullfilled by Jesus himself! Look at verse 7-11!! Perhaps some will never understand this,perhaps many do not wish to,i pray one day before it is to late many do understand! I always enjoy a healthy debate! I look my very best from the perpective another is looking to show me from. But when some are covered up by there viewpoint and cannot see,then I find it most difficult to see from darkness myself.

I of course have need of discipline in many areas of my life as well! I know I have lack as well to! But I am so very thankful to our Jesus for his abundant GRACE! ( acts 4:33) i sure never wish for my Jesus to ever even think I want him to judge me by my works!God forbid! i know what my works brought me! They brought me back to the law! To which i was never a part of to start with! And through our Jesus i will never ever have to be brought back to shame again! Strange how the very first commandment is to tell his people what they should have already been doing all along!! To LOVE! This is because his people were so very selfish! i shall bow out of this now,in hopes that many who have been reading as i have,will receive Holy spirit truth from all of this! Some of you from what i have read do see,i am most thankful for that!! God Bless you all!

 

[brakelite]

Mmmm @Brighthouse. Like DHC and others you have difficulty differentiating between the law of Moses and the Law of God. You jump from one to the other, not understanding where you are or where you are going.
But it is not this which I am chiefly concerned about. It isn't often I would venture to remonstrate with a moderator, but on this occasion I feel I must, for if your perspective on theology is indicative of the other mods and of this forum in general, I can only mourn at the low understanding of the nature and character of God, and how that is manifested to man.

Allow me please to address the main issue arising from your previous posts.
God is love. God doesn't just love. He doesn't love just some people and not others, nor does He love some of the time and not at other times. He is always love, Her always loves, and nothing He does, without exception, ever, and nothing He says, without exception, ever, isn't grounded, rooted, and founded in that love. His entire government or Kingdom both in heaven and in His church, is founded on love. It is utterly impossible for God to be, do, or say anything that isn't based on His love. And the rules, laws, statutes, testimonies, and commandments of that Kingdom must necessarilty also be rooted in God's love, because His commandments are the embodiment of His righteousness. His character. They are a reflection, albeit shadowy, of His very nature. Love. To deny the loving nature of God's laws is to deny the Lawmaker.

One example. Aside from saying that God's laws aren't loving, you also said that you didn't want to be brought into bondage by being subservient to God's laws. Take the 7th commandment...thou shalt not commit adultery.
Two questions.

1. If God isn't loving you when He says to your neighbour that he should not commit adultery with your wife, what is God doing then?
2. Would you admit to your wife that for you to obey the commandment to refrain from adultery is a form of bondage that you want to remain free from?

Of course, these two questions could apply equally to all ten commandments.

 

[brakelite]

Have these been abolished Brakelite?

Are you serious?

 

[brakelite]

If Jesus was referring to the artificial separation of the ten
commandments would He not have said so.

Nothing artificial about separating the law of Moses and the law of God, or what is commonly known as the Ten Commandments. God Himself made the separation quite distinct and clear.

 

[Brighthouse]

Brother brakelite, Gal 5:17-21 Without the fruit of Holy Spirit to instruct us,how then can we not sin? Gal 5:22-26 the law has no leading except in the flesh,but through Jesus and by his instruction,we learn how by following him, we stay free in him. The law only points to itself,but Jesus points to what he has already done for us to follow in.Much better understanding for me bro. Self cannot obey the whole law,many examples given as you well know in the gospels,many said i have keep it,but Jesus always said ah but you lack ! In one case if you look on a woman to lust you have committed adultery.the law never talked about that did it? See no instructions,only a law. Without instruction about the law, what good is the law? The person believed he keep the whole law,but lacked! Hence if we place our faith in the law and not upon Jesus who fullfilled it,we will always make a mistake in it! Because instead of looking to the only person who finished it,we are looking for ourself? How can we ever be sure we truly have kept the law? we can't! That is why we cannot look to it.

 

[Barny]

Nothing artificial about separating the law of Moses and the law of God, or what is commonly known as the Ten Commandments. God Himself made the separation quite distinct and clear.

God contradicts your claim.
Note the 10 commandments, written and engraven in stones, which is done away with, as described in 2Cor 3:7-11

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Note how this ministration of condemnation/death, written and engraven in stones, that was done away with, is also described as the "law" in other scriptures.

Gal 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 3:24, 25
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes.

The doctrine you follow clearly determines righteousness by deeds of the law, as you indicated through your posts.
This doctrine you follow denies righteousness by faith.
God's will (1Thess 4:3,) is that we abstain from fornication with Hagar, who is symbolic for the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.
Anyone who fornicates with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, is sinning against their own body, 1Cor 6:15-19.

 

[brakelite]

Brother brakelite, Gal 5:17-21 Without the fruit of Holy Spirit to instruct us,how then can we not sin? Gal 5:22-26 the law has no leading except in the flesh,but through Jesus and by his instruction,we learn how by following him, we stay free in him. The law only points to itself,but Jesus points to what he has already done for us to follow in.Much better understanding for me bro. Self cannot obey the whole law,many examples given as you well know in the gospels,many said i have keep it,but Jesus always said ah but you lack ! In one case if you look on a woman to lust you have committed adultery.the law never talked about that did it? See no instructions,only a law. Without instruction about the law, what good is the law? The person believed he keep the whole law,but lacked! Hence if we place our faith in the law and not upon Jesus who fullfilled it,we will always make a mistake in it! Because instead of looking to the only person who finished it,we are looking for ourself? How can we ever be sure we truly have kept the law? we can't! That is why we cannot look to it.

If you read back through my posts, you will quickly realize that I say pretty much the same thing.Which is why I am, well although not surprised, certainly to some extent perplexed, at why the vehement opposition to so much of what I say. After all, the crux of the issue is obedience to our Creator!! Now why does that raise so much angst? Why such opposition? What is it about God's commandments that engender so much debate?
The gospel I believe in is one of faith.

• Faith and trust in the person of Jesus Christ: in His/God's promises: in His/God's word.
• Justified solely by His shed blood.
• All sins forgiven by His grace through faith in His name.
• Christ has exchanged my old life of sin and rebellion for His life of righteousness and holiness.
• His Father now looks upon me as if I had never sinned.
• By His Spirit I now have the right, the grand and wonderful privilege, of partaking of the divine nature through faith in God's promises.(2 Peter 1:4)
• Created a new creature by His power...the same power that raised Him to life.
• Thus having a sure hope that whether translated or raised from the grave, I will live with Him for eternity.

The above points I believe is orthodox Christianity, and throughout my time here on this forum have repeated them all in some form or another many times. However...
In the meantime, and this is where it seems everyone and his shaggy dog disagrees with me, I continue to live by faith in His power, not just to raise me to glory later, but to change me into His image right now. It appears to me that so many who seek to debate me on this, agree that we re changed into the image of Christ , but seem to have a very fudged idea of what that image actually entails. The Power that changes me, I believe, that is sufficient, so long as I remain surrendered to it, to free me from all my old habits and sinful practices, even to such an extent that my life can be so conformed to the image of Jesus that like Him, I may obey all God's commandments.Now how does He accomplish this? BY filling me with His Spirit of love. Through love for Him, and through love for everyone else, I may keep His commandments. It is in those moments of selfishness, those times, which over time become rarer and further distant praise God, that I may offend. It is those times that I thank God for His grace, and remain confident that over time, even those rare moments will pass away and Christ finishes the work that He has begun. (Phil. 3:12) What kind of image can it be that falls short of this? All through faith in His grace and power. This is why I am convinced, and will always be convinced, that this is what Paul is referring to when he asks:
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

I am also convinced that the whole of Romans 6,7,8 supports my faith as I have just laid out. Any form of obedience that conforms to God's commandments, can only be a fruit of a healthy relationship with Jesus.(Rom.6:17-22) How could it be otherwise?
Now many twist this and claim it is legalism...bondage...old covenant theology...etc,etc,etc. To do this however, they must turn away from my written testimony, (as elucidated in the above bullet points) and judge me according to their own misconceptions and wrongful assumptions. I find this to be utterly dishonest, and presumptuous. It is the motivation behind such opposition that makes me wonder.

 

[brakelite]

Note the 10 commandments, written and engraven in stones, which is done away with, as described in 2 Cor 3:7-11

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

I would like to take you back a little to verse 3.
2 Cor.3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

If you read your quoted passage again, you will find that the passage says that the "glory" of Moses' ministration of the law was to be done away, but not the law.It was the place of the law that has changed, not the law itself. No longer on stone, it is now upon our heart. Same law, different address. Glorious before, but that glory done away, even more glorious now.

 

[Brighthouse]

Let us make things real easy,as i am getting tired of backtracking.If you believe in John 13:34 you are in fine shape. For in this one commandment all are covered. If you hold fast to this, fear not upon what others think or say, I sure do not!

 

[Barny]

I would like to take you back a little to verse 3.
2 Cor.3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

If you read your quoted passage again, you will find that the passage says that the "glory" of Moses' ministration of the law was to be done away, but not the law.It was the place of the law that has changed, not the law itself. No longer on stone, it is now upon our heart. Same law, different address. Glorious before, but that glory done away, even more glorious now.

Scripture confirms scripture, which all confirm that the law is ended for righteousness (2Cor 3:7-9, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

What you have done in your previous post is ignore all the other scriptures stating how the law is ended for righteousness, and then you have incorrectly expounded on 2Cor 3 claiming that the law still applies in determining our righteousness. The doctrine you follow contradicts the gospel. The doctrine you follow denies righteousness by faith (the same righteousness received by the thief on the cross who did no deeds of the law).

Note these quotes from your previous posts. They all speak of a Christian's righteousness being determined by works of the law. This is contrary to the gospel of grace.

For he who is grafted to the tree the growth of fruit , that is practical physical real experiential improvement in behaviour/lifestyle practices, is inevitable ......
.... Fruit therefore, for he who believes, is something he indeed can expect and look forward to and rejoice in. They are the impartaion of Christ's own righteousness.

Here we see your claim that without this "imparted" righteousness (which is perfect obedience to the law) then one is not righteous and thereby not in Christ.

That it is faith in His power to overcome sin, faith in His promises to do so, that we overcome. I have said this many many times.......
The law Barney is a measure of a persons righteousness, whether Christian or not.
Now if we are who we claim to be, that is children of God with "Christ in us , the hope of glory" (Col.1:27) , and "His law written not on tables of stone, but on the fleshly tables of our heart", (2 Cor. 3:3) , that law being the very same law that was on stone,....

......This love Barney,engendered by the Spirit of the living God abiding in us, which Paul places such high value to, (1 Cor. 14) is the enabling power by which we keep all God's commandments.

Again we see the doctrine of works of the law, just as under the ministry of condemnation/death that is done away with (2Cor 3:7-9).
You claim that without perfect obedience to the law then one is unrighteous and without Christ.

Interestingly, we see that the likes of the Adventists, fail to perfectly obey the law, in spite of their preaching how their righteousness is determined by deeds of the law. The fact that Adventists fail to obey the law only confirms scripture like Gal 2:18, which states that if you build again the things that you destroyed (righteousness by deeds of the law), you makes yourself a transgressor/Sinner.

Scriptures give many warnings against turning back to the law to determine righteousness.
To turn back to the law to determine righteousness is described in scripture as fornicating with Hagar. But God warns us to "abstain from fornication" (1Thess 4:3), to "flee fornication" (1Cor 6:18), and not even to associate with fornicators (1Cor 5:9).

 

[brakelite]

The law Barney is a measure of a persons righteousness, whether Christian or not.

Hi Barney, perhaps you are right. Perhaps my statement as per the above quote needs some correcting. Maybe if I look at this from another perspective it may make matters somewhat clearer? So, instead of saying the law is a measure of righteousness, would it help if I term it...

the law is a measure of our lack of righteousness?

Thus if a Christian were to study the law, and discover that he is practicing something that the law prohibits, say for examplehe is cheating on his taxes, and is convicted of the Holy Spirit that this is fraud, thus he is stealing. Now he has a number of options.

• He does as the law was designed to do...he seeks Jesus. He confesses his sin, pays back what he owes, is forgiven and goes on with his life a new man and free of guilt. He, though a Christian, realizes that he wasn't totally surrendered to Christ and the law pointed out his lack...pointed to an area of his life where Christ wasn't reigning. After surrendering this particular matter and laying it before the Lord, he is empowered to change his life in accordance to what the law requires, and he becomes a 'doer of the word' and not a hearer only. Thus rather than just expecting a future life with the Lifegiver, he is in actuality living the life of the Lifegiver. He is working out his salvation with fear and trembling. Christ is working in him both to will and to do His good pleasure. He is bearing fruit.
• Or he could claim that because the law doesn't apply to Christians he discards the law, steels himself against the conviction of the Spirit, and continues to do as before free of any sense of guilt.
• Or he could claim that the law was only applicable to the Jews, he isn't under the law, therefore because the law doesn't apply, then whatever he is doing cannot be sin so he continues to do as before, free from any sense of guilt.

Now that I have altered somewhat the perspective of looking at the law, from the point of view of a lack of righteousness or lack of Christ, now I can more understand why Christians are so reticent in obedience to the law. If the law points out that they aren't obeying a particular requirement, this is an indication of an area of life that is not under the Lordship of Christ. This of course goes against the grain of many. It means giving up certain practices that aren't compatible with God's standards. It means a recognition that perhaps their profession to Christianity isn't what they thought it was. Maybe what they thought was the narrow way was in fact an interstate highway with no speed limits. And maybe, just maybe, their lack of righteousness or commandment keeping is a sign that they aren't even Christians at all, but neither know God or are known of Him???
I believe this guy is saying the same thing....

1 John3: ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[Barny]

instead of saying the law is a measure of righteousness, would it help if I term it...

the law is a measure of our lack of righteousness?

Either way you're still saying the same thing, that we're not righteous unless we obey the law perfectly. In other words, righteousness by works of the law (fornication with Hagar).You don't see any believer as righteous as per Rom 4:5; which states that our faith is counted for righteousness.
Instead you only see one as righteous if they obey the law perfectly.
But, we see that the thief on the cross (righteous by faith, without any deeds of the law) is God's example of His grace towards us, that you seem not able to accept under the doctrine you follow.

Thus if a Christian were to study the law, and discover that he is practicing something that the law prohibits, say for examplehe is cheating on his taxes, and is convicted of the Holy Spirit that this is fraud, thus he is stealing. Now he has a number of options.

• He does as the law was designed to do...he seeks Jesus. He confesses his sin, pays back what he owes, is forgiven and goes on with his life a new man and free of guilt. He, though a Christian, realizes that he wasn't totally surrendered to Christ and the law pointed out his lack...pointed to an area of his life where Christ wasn't reigning. After surrendering this particular matter and laying it before the Lord, he is empowered to change his life in accordance to what the law requires, and he becomes a 'doer of the word' and not a hearer only.

We differ in understanding on scripture relating to what you say here.
We know that only past sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25. After we receive Christ there is no more sin to be charged against believers.
Believer's have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1; and "cannot sin" 1John 3:9.
Jesus had set us free from sin, John 8:36.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (even sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

But, under the doctrine you follow, it's wrongly alleged that Christian's are still charged with "sin" (in spite of Christ's sacrifice, setting us free from the law) and if they do not obey the law perfectly then they are condemned and lost.

As for the reference to being a "doer of the word" (James 1), this is not referring to obeying the law. Instead it refers to being a "doer of the word" in believing on Jesus.
Remember that our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
God's will is that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
We overcome the world when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:4,5.
And the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

• Or he could claim that because the law doesn't apply to Christians he discards the law, steels himself against the conviction of the Spirit, and continues to do as before free of any sense of guilt.

This is the same old argument legalists always use. They allege that without the law, Christians will run wild in debauchery, living selfishly.
The reality is far different.
Many Christians strongly disagree with the doctrine of works of the law that you follow, yet they are not indulging in selfish behavior like you allege.

And anyone who knows any Adventists (and their like) would know how they all fail to obey the law perfectly anyway.

The reality we do see with Christians, however, is that we're each at different stages of growth so we're going to see various levels of improvement in behaviour. But our behavior is not how our righteousness is determined. Instead it's our faith that's counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5, just as it was for the thief on the cross.

Now that I have altered somewhat the perspective of looking at the law, from the point of view of a lack of righteousness or lack of Christ, now I can more understand why Christians are so reticent in obedience to the law. If the law points out that they aren't obeying a particular requirement, this is an indication of an area of life that is not under the Lordship of Christ. This of course goes against the grain of many. It means giving up certain practices that aren't compatible with God's standards. It means a recognition that perhaps their profession to Christianity isn't what they thought it was. Maybe what they thought was the narrow way was in fact an interstate highway with no speed limits. And maybe, just maybe, their lack of righteousness or commandment keeping is a sign that they aren't even Christians at all, but neither know God or are known of Him???

Here you clearly state that anyone who does not perfectly obey the law is unrighteous (just as the Pharisees/Sadducees did). You describe such persons as being lost/without knowing God.

But you also seem to suggest that those who do not obey the law may not be lost when you use the term "maybe".

Perhaps you can clarify yourself further.

I believe this guy is saying the same thing....

1 John3: ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Considering the context you present this scripture, I can see that you use it to claim the following points.

1: Anyone who does not obey the law perfectly has not seen Christ nor know him.
2: Anyone who does obey the law perfectly is righteous.
3: Anyone who does not obey the law perfectly is of the devil.
4: Anyone who does not obey the law perfectly is not of God.

What you allege above through the way you understand 1John 3:4-10, would then present a very bad outcome for all Adventists, as they all fail to obey the law perfectly.

I differ in how I read this same scripture. I see that those who sin are those who bring themselves under the law (legalists). They make themselves transgressors/Sinners Gal 2:18; as they see righteousness only in terms of perfect deeds of the law. They reject righteousness by faith. Christ has become a stumbling stone for them.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Is not loving a sin?

I asked this question in this fashion, at the time. Moved by the spirit to do so, but not truly knowing exactly where it would take me. Thank-you Father God for guiding me and pushing me ever forward.

Truth be told, I looked at the many sides on this thread, and could not reconcile any one as being totally correct. Each side has ample scripture to support their positions. The attempt of all, was to disprove a position arrived by careful study and understanding of scripture and/or in support of their existing position in faithfulness of belief. Roughly speaking that is. Many nuances in defining it, but basically a person is either in a saved state upon an individual declaration (Regardless of behavior to the contrary afterwards.) or saved and working towards that goal (Reflective in their behavior.). These positions held even to the point of mentioning "Love" as to provide support. However, "Love" was never truly the focal point of the position or discussion. However, in honesty, I do believe it should have been. For only by assessing "Love" in our own lives, can we know if God is truly in us; His Saving Grace. That is where I pray this post will take you which is further forward upon a truly narrow path we walk.

This thought had never occurred to me that there was a possibility that both positions could be right. That a professing believer could be delivered and still be working towards a goal that included works and that a professing believer could be delivered but exhibit no signs of change by works. The latter being the more difficult position to concede and support until @barney so eloquently stated his position.

This however, left me in a conundrum. Once again, how to reconcile what appears to be opposing positions. Prayer, reading and studying of scripture, was beneficial, including all the posting from this thread (which is ongoing) but they still easily supported one position or the other rather readily, yet none without an opposite response. Yet one word continued to show itself, occasionally in this thread and throughout scripture, which repeated over and over again reverberating within my heart, my spirit. LOVE!

The below scripture in particular stood out, because it was given by our Lord as a Commandment. This verse and the question I posed in the opening prompted me in part to walk a road less traveled in this thread.

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I firmly believe to reconcile both positions of the discussion being held here, the answer to the opening question must be "it can be sin" and "cannot be sin". That is correct. You did not misread this. The answer is "Yes" and "No". How, can it possibly be both? To have one question and two opposing answers and still be truth? This may not be easy, and is the foremost reason, that I've rewritten this numerous times, pouring over phrasing, praying for guidance and even as I now type this, am not quite sure it will be the finished product that will be posted as it currently stands or truly communicate what is within my heart and spirit to share.

It is written in Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The preceding verses of v23 easily identified that the workers of perceived beneficial works were being cast aside, and that works in of themselves would not bring Salvation to the doers. Which means they will be viewed as sinners in the eyes of God. Some might attribute it to a possible lack of belief being their failure. Was it their lack of belief? I don't think so. Look at what was written about these individuals and what they said in v21. "Lord Lord". Meaning these individuals acknowledge Him even recognized Him as Lord! They knew who He was! What does scripture say about belief:

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I knew I had to tread carefully, because this could easily be seen as questioning Salvation period, regardless of the position one held! So what was missing that could answer the persistent question or should I say position that had taken over 36 (When I started this it was 26 pages not 36) pages of postings and still counting, to come to some understanding? What was being missed or not being included as foundational that would satisfy what seems to be two unattainable positions?

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Many can see that the above verse can support either position depending on which side is making the point. No definitive answer here in determining the state an individual needs to be in at the time of the above noted event.

However, we do know that works are an evidence by which one is seen as being delivered. (Hold still on this brother @barney a moment please!) My brother @brakelite has done an awesome job of showing this, and how I truly believed this even now (However, not in the way either of you might interpret it.) The scriptures are also numerous supporting this and can easily be found by going back through these many postings on this thread.

So what must be the determining factor for both conditions to be true? A song that I posted in media here at TJ, brought to mind a verse from 1 Corinthians 13 "If we have not love". KJV has it as Charity, but if you look to translate Charity, its translated as agape, "Love". This is one part that the KJV would have provided a greater insight if it had used Love instead of Charity. When looking at Strongs for both words, the definition given can both be found in G26.

LOVE!!!! It really doesn't matter what language is used, the inability by man to but scratch the surface of understanding it much less living it, easily can degrade into an intellectual exercise that creates more bindings then it does freedom in the innocence of just knowing and accepting. Like children my brothers and sisters, like children must we be.

Love is not stagnant, it is vibrant, interactive, and every other word attributed to the Godhead. Unlike any law, it cannot be measured except to say that God is Love! (1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.) We can attempt to feature certain actions or behaviors as being or not being love, but who can in truth say, they fully comprehend God, who is Love? Love is a state of continual being, while all creation is a byproduct of God's Love. Start there or at the Cross which is where for all of us it started, then move forward.

I do believe that one day we will once again know the fulness of God. That day is not yet, but we are on the path to getting there.

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, (18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; (19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

We are changing. Yes, we can start out doing works of charity as an obligation, but if we have the love of God in us, it will change into a labor of love. Oh, yes! It will! What seems like a chore one moment. The next thing you know, you can't wait for it to come around again! It has become weightless, not a chore, nor a burden, but a joy. What makes the difference is, if you have the Love of God in you! You will be changed by Him! Resistance is futile. Besides, what Child of God would not want this ongoing change?

So many analogies to change and behavior, all to do with Love! What was the meaning of changing a heart of stone to flesh? Is it act in accordance with an obligation? NO! Is it not loving? NO! Everywhere you turn in Scripture, you will see "LOVE" "GOD" as the determining factor. Given to us by a Loving God!

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Sadly, some will attempt to state, then how much love is acceptable unto Salvation? I would ask, first tell me how much of God do you have in your heart? When, we do not see clearly enough yet to understand God in all His fulness! What man can comprehend His fulness?

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We are growing through His Spirit! Alleluia! Glory be to God!

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.

1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit

Who hasn't heard the expression "The Bible is a Love Letter" Could it be any other way? I repeat this verse, for it needs repeating over and over again!

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Romans 5:5 and the hope doth not make ashamed, because the love of God hath been poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit that hath been given to us.

That is why, I ask. Can either position held here say that one can be delivered regardless of what one does or does not do and not love? In other words, does one who does not love be a sinner? Sadly, yes, because what does scripture say "I never knew you!" Why did He not know them? God was not to be found in their hearts though their works and words seemed to say otherwise!

Don't tie yourself up in works that if not done in love, accomplish little. Remember, God chooses who He wants to have His will done. Doesn't always have to be a believer. Remember Pharaoh!

We know if we "confess" with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and "believe in your heart" that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. There is where the matter of deliverance is to be found! Do we believe in our hearts? What evidence do we have of this?

One might say, I believe in His word, I believe in His promises. This is not an exercise, but one of looking into ones' own deceiving heart Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

What we really need to be able to ask ourselves it "Do I or you have the love of God in our Heart?

Fearing to look, knowing the deceptive nature of it, yet needing to know if my God resides in my heart? If He does, shouldn't there be a change that occurs, just by the very fact that God is in us? Should not the very Love that God is, be reflected by us to the world, a world that most assuredly will not reflect it back?

1 John 2:5 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Romans 10:9 that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved,

How many threads have I read here at TJ, that has had me wonder even before this revelation if the thought of communicating in love was even thought of before putting finger to keyboard? Was time taken so there would if possible be no misunderstanding that the reader would know that even in disagreement that the author truly has love for them? Could they imagine that this person has the love of God in their hearts?

Truth be told, I did not come by this in a natural progression, but supernaturally. No one but the Holy Spirit, could have had me change from the aggressive, spontaneous writer, speaker that needed to make a point. (Which at times I am still susceptible to doing.) A point that was more important to me than the telling to others the love of Christ Jesus and all that entails; which now resides in my heart, and is sorely limited by my own ability with words and complete understanding.

Maybe, that is why, even as I type at times, I have difficulty seeing through the tears, because the words fail me in communicating this love, or that somehow I might fail in making that love known, in a way that does not diminish, but rather provides an avenue of growth for the reader which I pray leads to a greater understanding of our God who is Love.

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

So the questions you should be asking at this moment are not "Is not loving a sin?", "Is my behavior according to the law acceptable unto salvation?", "Is just believing sufficient as a Child of the Most High?" The question you should be asking yourself is "Do I have the Love of God in my heart with this limited yet growing understanding of what that means? " For if you can answer in the affirmative then everything else will fall into its rightful place, and within God's will, which is where we want to be as individual parts of the body of Christ.

I cannot go on and continue writing in words that my spirit shouts without words to convince you of this truth. Only each of you can do that. So argue both points if you must, but remember; if Love is not in the forefront of what you do, no matter how much success you believe you've achieved or how secure you believe your position to be, you will have done it all in vain in not having a heart founded in Love.

I pray this may touch, and move the hearts of those, whose desire as mine is to only be that "good and faithful servant"; able to not only go boldly before the throne; but to prostrate ourselves with our tears falling upon His feet, in the all encompassing love that cannot be contained that is God. Alleluia Abba Father, All Glory, Honor and Praise!!
With all my love my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
Nick

1 John 4:7-21

 

[Barny]

Hi C4E

Thanks for your post.
I'm sure all here would agree with you that love is the most important, as described in scripture.

Many nuances in defining it, but basically a person is either in a saved state upon an individual declaration (Regardless of behavior to the contrary afterwards.) or saved and working towards that goal (Reflective in their behavior.).

I would have described the debate so far in terms of 2 differing views describing how righteousness is determined.

It's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Our behavior is not the determining factor, as proved by the thief on the cross.

The reason why behavior is always included in these discussions is because legalists always raise it up as the way they claim that ones righteousness is determined

It is written in Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The preceding verses of v23 easily identified that the workers of perceived beneficial works were being cast aside, and that works in of themselves would not bring Salvation to the doers. Which means they will be viewed as sinners in the eyes of God. Some might attribute it to a possible lack of belief being their failure. Was it their lack of belief? I don't think so. Look at what was written about these individuals and what they said in v21. "Lord Lord". Meaning these individuals acknowledge Him even recognized Him as Lord!

We see a similar description in Tit 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works (of the law for righteousness, which is unbelief) they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

And note the similarity of Tit 1:16 to the context of Matt 7:23.
For context, let's consider Matt 7:1-5
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam (judging righteousness by works of the law) that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam (judging by the law) is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

So we see that Matt 7:23, refers to those who determine/judge righteousness by deeds of the law. Such are in unbelief, as revealed by their desire to be under the law judging righteousness. Such do not love others as they seek instead to preach condemnation if anyone fails to obey the law perfectly.

We are growing through His Spirit! Alleluia! Glory be to God!

Agreed.

And as Christians will all be at different stages of growth we should not be judging one another or comparing ourselves with one another.

That is why, I ask. Can either position held here say that one can be delivered regardless of what one does or does not do and not love? In other words, does one who does not love be a sinner? Sadly, yes, because what does scripture say "I never knew you!" Why did He not know them? God was not to be found in their hearts though their works and words seemed to say otherwise!

My understanding is that one who does not love is one who determines righteousness by deeds of the law. In other words they reject "Judge not, that ye not be judged", Matt 7:1.

Such are like what Jesus referred to in Matt 18:21-35
Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

“But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.


1John 3:11-14
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain (symbolic of the flesh), who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother (Abel, symbolic of the spirit). And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous (By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. Heb 11:4).

Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. (as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Gal 4:29).

We know that we have passed from death unto life (when we believe on Jesus/saved by grace), because we love the brethren (we show similar love/grace/forgiveness as God showed us). He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Those of the flesh (like Cain, who also is like those who say "Lord, Lord") are those who desire to be under the law, Gal 4:21-29. They judge righteousness by deeds of the law. Cain (symbolic of those in the flesh) did not love his brother Abel, (symbolic of those in the Spirit) and slew him. And we see this in that the world (Cain/those in the flesh) hate Christians (those in the Spirit) and persecutes them (Gal 4:29).

We know if we "confess" with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and "believe in your heart" that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. There is where the matter of deliverance is to be found! Do we believe in our hearts? What evidence do we have of this?

The evidence, or works, that shows our faith is believing on Jesus, John 6:29.

And in believing on Jesus we love/forgive one another just as God loved/forgave us.

So how do we know love?
1John 3:16-18
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good (Jesus), and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

And how do we show our love/compassion to others, in deed and in truth?
Consider Matt 25:36-46
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Many will focus on this only in physical terms.

But scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.

Consider how God describes terms as found in Matt 25.

What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
1Cor 10:3,4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Who are those in spiritual prison but those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5,6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

How are the spiritually naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

And those without Christ are strangers who need to hear the gospel to be taken into God's kingdom.
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

When we share the gospel of Christ we offer to take in the lost so that they may no longer be strangers.
Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And doing the works of believing in Jesus (John 6:29) Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.

Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Barny
This is not meant to aggrieve you dear brother.

Is your post a roundabout way of saying that God in our Hearts is irrelevant to a larger picture that you are attempting to put to words that we might understand?

Please brother, do not confuse your position with what I am trying to say.

I leave you with one question: Knowing that Love is the essential nature of God; how was God's Love manifested physically to us? and how do we who have God in our heart manifest that love to the world?
LU Brother

 

[Barny]

Is your post a roundabout way of saying that God in our Hearts is irrelevant to a larger picture that you are attempting to put to words that we might understand?

I don't quite understand your question. Can you give detail as to what "larger picture" you are suggesting God is irrelevant to?

I leave you with one question: Knowing that Love is the essential nature of God; how was God's Love manifested physically to us? and how do we who have God in our heart manifest that love to the world?
LU Brother

I usually try to avoid long posts but as debates develop then longer posts sometimes develop. Sorry if my long post led to my message getting lost.

How was God's love manifested?
We all know John 3:16.

I'll also repost my last point from my previous post.

So how do we know love?
1 John 3:16-18
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good (Jesus), and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

And how do we show our love/compassion to others, in deed and in truth? How is love manifested to others?

Consider Matt 25:36-46
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Many will focus on this only in physical terms.

But scripture is spiritually discerned, 1 Cor 2:14

Consider how God describes terms as found in Matt 25.

What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
1 Cor 10:3, 4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Who are those in spiritual prison but those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5, 6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

How are the spiritually naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

And those without Christ are strangers who need to hear the gospel to be taken into God's kingdom.
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

When we share the gospel of Christ we offer to take in the lost so that they may no longer be strangers.
Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And doing the works of believing in Jesus (John 6:29) Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.

Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Consider the debate on this topic.

Some here have been preaching the gospel, to believe on Jesus. We've been preaching that we should obey the will of God for us to believe on Jesus (John 6:40). The gospel message is how our compassion for others is revealed in spiritually feeding, clothing, the poor, healing the spiritually sick, taking in those who are strangers from the the covenants of promise, and visiting those in spiritual prison. And as for physical behavior, that often does improve as well.
But like I said before, Christians will all be at different stages of growth so you'll find that we do not judge one another or compare ourselves with one another.

Others however, have been preaching the law, with the threat that without perfect obedience to the law (or some slightly lessor, ambiguous, yet acceptable level of obedience) then such are unrighteous/lost. This message is similar to that of the Pharisees/Sadducees.
Some of these people preaching the law may not have ever truly accepted Christ and preach the law in ignorance as Paul himself had done, whereas others had received Christ but then rejected him (like a dog returning to it's vomit).
The latter, for example, are those who deliberately suppress the truth of the gospel and preach righteousness by works of the law, instead.

Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

Whilst both groups I described above are speaking of love, one group is manifesting that love through preaching the gospel of grace, whereas the other group is suppressing the truth so that others may remain spiritually hungry, sick, naked, in prison, and alienated from the commonwealth of Israel.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I usually try to avoid long posts but as debates develop then longer posts sometimes develop. Sorry if my long post led to my message getting lost.

I'll also repost my last point from my previous post.

Not at all. Your message was not lost and has not changed at all. It just continues in the same light it has always been. As does you last post. Consistency is a sign of one who is well grounded. I have had little problem with it all as far as it goes. Remember I did mention that you or I should say your reasoning was part of why I believed there was something more (reconcile), to not only your position, but the other side as well.

I just did not see where you addressed the essential element of what I was saying, in my rather long post. God is either in the heart of the believer or He is not a believer. If He is in the heart of a believer, should not those same Children of God exhibit a change evident to all the world? That is either yes or no. Now that change is part of the growth process, and given time that same Thief on the Cross, would have also exhibited that evidence and is the reason I used "should" in asking my question.

Yet the evidence is not the obligatory one that would readily come to mind of the physical man, rather the actions of one who is reflecting the same said Love that resides in His Heart, which is God who is Spiritual. Our Lord not only was Spiritual, but Physical as well, in word, deed, in spirit and flesh. His life is evidence of this. Do you understand what I am saying, in conjunction with my long post? (How, does one communicate a pointed question with love? Which is how that other one is meant.)