What does Jesus mean when he says

[B-A-C]

Isaiah 64
6 And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy rags;

I thought you said the OT didn't apply to us Gentiles?
In any case, I agree with all the verses you posted above. Our righteousness can not save us.

Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness
and holiness of the truth.

What do you think this new self the "WE" put on is? How is it different from the old self?

Romans 10:3
For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own,
they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

So the Jews knew God's laws, but yet they did not subject themselves to his laws, they made up their own laws... ok, and the point is?

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,
but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing
by the Holy Spirit.

That's true, that's how we get saved. But is it how we prove we are saved?
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21; Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22; You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

 

[B-A-C]

Whenever I ask for what minimum standard of obedience to the law of righteousness is required as proof that we have this imparted righteousness (and therefore salvation), I get either ambiguous responses or no response at all. It's a doctrine that's clearly not supported in scripture.

Rather than post all this again.... I'll just point you to message #29 on this page.

http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/46121-judgement-3.html#.Uiajgk2uKUk

 

[Barny]

That's true, that's how we get saved. But is it how we prove we are saved?
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21; Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22; You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

How do we prove that we're saved?

Jesus was asked what works we should do (John 6:28).
He replied that we are to believe on him (John 6:29).

Why would anyone then want to seek proof of salvation based on how well we keep the law? Any such doctrines are unbelief in Jesus. Anyone preaching works of the law is showing by their works that they are in unbelief.

Now Jesus and grace only have to supply 60% of the grace, instead of 95% everyday. And who knows, maybe in a few years, I'll be able to follow the commandments 70 or 80% of the time.
This process of taking off the old sinful self, and putting on the new man, and crucifying ourselves daily in order to become more like Jesus, is also known as sanctification. I don't think we ever reach 100% while we are here on this earth. In fact, if we ever think we can do it 100% on our own, then we no longer would need Jesus. (This would be going back to depending on the law for salvation). We always need some grace from Jesus every day. The good news is, the grace is there. We are no longer under the yoke of having to follow the law 100%. But we are still obligated to try. This grace that covers us when we fail, is how Jesus fulfills the law. (He didn't abolish the law, only the penalty for us).

To me, the only way both sides make sense is.. to just do the best we can, and let grace cover the rest.

Th old sinful nature (the flesh) was crucified on the cross. Our old man was crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).
Hence we see that there is no gradual process of putting off the flesh.

We fight the good fight of faith. We are running a race to win a crown. This is our process.
1Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession (Rom 10:9) in the presence of many witnesses. I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,

We are to keep the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot, blameless.

But if we mix grace with works of the law, then we are lukewarm (Rev 3:15,16) and in unbelief.
We cannot mix grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[B-A-C]

But if we mix grace with works of the law, then we are lukewarm (Rev 3:15, 16) and in unbelief.
We cannot mix grace with works of the law.

Lukewarm means not loving God with all your heart mind and soul. It has nothing to do with works.

Th old sinful nature (the flesh) was crucified on the cross. Our old man was crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).
Hence we see that there is no gradual process of putting off the flesh.

It says in order that the old self "MIGHT" (as in maybe) be done away with, it doesn't say "ALREADY" done away with.
However at the moment of salvation we are clean and spotless. Still we can get dirty again.
John 13:10; Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are to keep the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot, blameless.

Rather than repost all this again.. I will point you to...

http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/46420-if.html#.Uic5hU2uKUk post #2.

 

[Barny]

Lukewarm means not loving God with all your heart mind and soul. It has nothing to do with works..

Believing in Jesus are our works, John 6:29.
God's will is that we believe in Jesus, John 6:40.
Jesus commandment is that we believe on him for everlasting life, John 3:16.
We overcome the world when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:4,5
We are born of God when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:1.
When we believe on Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Now the alternative type of works spoken of throughout scripture is works of the law for righteousness.
We both know that Israel attempted this method and failed to attain righteousness (Rom 9:31, 32).
And we all know that by works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Rom 11:6 tells us that you cannot mix grace with works of the law.
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work

James 3:11 likewise.
Does a spring send forth fresh water (grace) and bitter (judging righteousness by works of the law) from the same opening?

God gives us clear distinct instructions on what works we should do for righteousness. If we love God then we will obey His will/commandment to believe on Jesus. That's the simplicity that is in Christ.

But, the doctrine you follow is ambiguous. You argue that lukewarm is referring to not loving God. Knowing the rest of the doctrine you follow we see that this then becomes a message of works of the law where anyone who does not attain some ambiguous minimum standard of obedience to the law is, then they are lukewarm and lost.

I reply to the rest of your points later as I'm short of time at the moment.

 

[Barny]

It says in order that the old self "MIGHT" (as in maybe) be done away with, it doesn't say "ALREADY" done away with.

Rom 6:6,7
knowing this, that our old man was (past tense) crucified (past tense) with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died (past tense) has been freed (past tense) from sin.

Christians accept this by faith.
And as long as we continue to believe in Jesus, then that old man remains dead. We fight the good fight of faith. We're running a race for a crown. And if we continue till the end to obey His commandment to believe in Jesus, without spot and blameless (1Tim 6:14), then, like Paul, we can say "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing" 2Tim 4:7,8.

Christians should not then turn back to the law like the foolish Galatians did (Gal 3:3), seeking to be perfected by the flesh. That would be resurrecting the old man with it's lust for self-righteousness through works of the law (fornication with Hagar).

We want that old man to stay dead.

However at the moment of salvation we are clean and spotless. Still we can get dirty again.

In Christ we are not dirty. Hence we should not call unclean what God has cleansed.
In Christ we're righteous (Rom 4:5), holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14) and cannot sin (1john 3:9).

So how can someone become dirty again?
Gal 2;18
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER.

For a christian to turn back to the law is like a washed pig returning to wallowing in the mire.
2Pet 2:21-22
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment (to believe on Jesus) delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,"] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

John 13:10; Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."

I suspect your understanding of this corresponds with Adventist teaching.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that we're to have our feet washed to cleanse us of any subsequent "sin" after receiving Christ?

1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Note the evangelical context of 1John 1 from the beginning of the chapter. It declares eternal life so that others also may have fellowship with the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.
Hence we see that anyone who repents of their dead works of self-righteousness (sin) and receives Christ, their past sins are forgiven (Rom 3:25). Once we're in Christ there is no more subsequent sin. We've "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1), "cannot sin" (1John 3:9). Jesus truly set us free from sin (John 8:36, Rom 6:7).

Rather than repost all this again.. I will point you to...

http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/46420-if.html#.Uic5hU2uKUk post #2.

I note you quote scripture on that rich ruler who claimed he kept the law.
But note that he said "what lack I yet?" by keeping the law.
Jesus replied that to be perfect, follow him (believe on Jesus).

B-A-C, you seem determined to mix works of the law with grace.

 

[B-A-C]

This will just have to be one of those things we disagree on.

We both agree we aren't saved BY works. ( Rom 3:20; Gal 2:16; )
I just believe we are saved TO DO works. (after we are saved)

Part of believing in Jesus, is believing in the works he did. (Even the demons believe in Jesus)
John 14:12; "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matt 3:8; "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;
Rom 7:4; Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
1 Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
1 Tim 6:18; Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:26; For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

We don't get saved by following the commandments. But it's something we are supposed to do if we are indeed saved.
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 5:2; By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

If you don't keep His commandments, you don't know him. What are His commandments?
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Mark 12:30; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Mark 12:31; "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:32; The scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM;
Mark 12:33; AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Mark 12:34; When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions.

In fact, if we say we know Jesus don't follow the commandments, this is what He will say to us.

Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[Barny]

We both agree we aren't saved BY works. ( Rom 3:20; Gal 2:16; )
I just believe we are saved TO DO works. (after we are saved)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand from our previous discussions that you preach that Christians are unrighteous (being dirty again after being washed) if they do not obey the law/10 commandments well enough.

This is where we seem to differ. You can't see any Christian as righteous/holy/sanctified/perfected in Christ, without some minimum standard of obedience to the law. You even seem to follow error Adventist doctrine of foot washing to deal with "sin" (being dirty again) after having been washed by the blood when we first received Christ.

Can you confirm if my understanding of what you preach is correct.

We don't get saved by following the commandments. But it's something we are supposed to do if we are indeed saved.

We do get saved by keeping God's commandment to believe on Jesus.

We don't get saved by keeping the law/10 commandments as none can keep them perfectly, as the law requires. Even the legalists fail to keep the law/10 commandments.

You had claimed in previous discussions that we are to attain some ambiguous, yet unknowable, minimum standard of obedience to the law/10 commandments, as proof of one's salvation. This is an ambiguous gospel, at best.

If you don't keep His commandments, you don't know him. What are His commandments?
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

I agree.

But those who seek to establish/prove righteousness by works of the law, do not love God. They do not submit to His righteousness, and instead seek to be perfected by the flesh, in rebellion against God.

In fact, if we say we know Jesus don't follow the commandments, this is what He will say to us.

Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Note Matt 7:21-23, for context.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

What is God's will that Christians do?
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Christians obey God's will to believe on Jesus. We trust God and our faith is counted for righteousness.

And who are those who "practice lawlessness"?
Rom 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Gal 2:18
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor (Sinner).

Those who practice lawlessness are those who bring themselves under the law/10 commandments as proof of righteousness. They all fail to keep the law perfectly (as it requires, James 2:10) and are thus transgressors/Sinners/Lawless.

 

[brakelite]

But those who seek to establish/prove righteousness by works of the law, do not love God. They do not submit to His righteousness, and instead seek to be perfected by the flesh, in rebellion against God.

You seem very adept at making these kind of sweeping accusatory statements...."do not love God"....correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the accuser of the brethren cast down from heaven and is now called Satan, the adversary?
That said, I agree with you that those who seek to establish righteousness through works of the law are doing so in the flesh. What you seem to miss Barney or don't consider possible or relevant, is the alternative means by which children of God may attain to righteounsess....through faith. Unless of course you don't believe God wants us to live our lives free from sin? Which leads me to asking...what is it precisely that you are believing God for??? And another question.
If to believe in Jesus is our only work, what on earth is James on about when he says, "faith without works is dead"? Faith without faith is dead?????

 

[Barny]

correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the accuser of the brethren cast down from heaven and is now called Satan, the adversary?

Yes, Satan is the accuser of the brethren. And he was cast out.
Rev 12:9-11
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Satan the accuser can not charge Christians with anything.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Satan, the adversary, cannot charge us with the sin of transgression of the law (1John 3:4), as Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

The adversary cannot charge us with the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17), as our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).

But, we see Adventist doctrine continues to charge Christians with transgression of the law and unrighteousness, just like Satan the adversary seeks to do.

What you seem to miss Barney or don't consider possible or relevant, is the alternative means by which children of God may attain to righteounsess....through faith

The alternative to righteousness by works of the law is when our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).

But your point above suggests that you don't see any Christian as righteous unless they have works of the law to prove it.

Unless of course you don't believe God wants us to live our lives free from sin?

Only past sin was dealt with at the cross.
Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Once we receive Christ there is no more sin that Satan (the accuser) can charge us with (Rom 8:33).
1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) hath ceased from sin

1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free (from sin), ye shall be free indeed.

Christians abide in Christ, and in him there is no sin (1John 3:5,6). As our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) what sin can be charged against us?
We cannot be charged with the sin of transgression of the law (1John 3:4), as Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

We cannot be charged with the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17), as our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).

But, Adventist doctrine denies what God says above and it continues to charge Christians with sin/transgression of the law/unrighteousness, just as Satan the adversary seeks to do.

If to believe in Jesus is our only work, what on earth is James on about when he says, "faith without works is dead"? Faith without faith is dead?????

Jesus tells us in John 6:29 that our works are to believe in him.

Your question above suggests that you do not see this as our works.

Yet, we see in scripture that our works of believing in Jesus, also happens to be God's will for us (John 6:40).
Believing in Jesus also is His commandment (John 3:16, 1John 3:23).
Believing in Jesus is how we overcome (1John 5:4,5).
Believing in Jesus makes us born of God (1John 5:1).
Note also that unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of (John 16:9).

 

[B-A-C]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand from our previous discussions that you preach that Christians are unrighteous (being dirty again after being washed) if they do not obey the law/10 commandments well enough.

Yes, this is correct. The ten (or two depending on how you look at it) commandments aren't the ONLY sin you can do, but it's a good guide.
However you don't get "un-saved" by not following them. You just get more grace. If we confess our sins, he will forgive us.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Is that the ONLY thing the Bible says is required? Or are there other verses you are leaving out? If we get to pick and choose which verses we want to follow, then I guess it makes sense. (Many false churches do this)

Believing isn't Jesus in itself isn't saves you. (Demons know who Jesus is) Believing in Jesus is what gives you the power to overcome sin, to love others, and
live you life for his purpose.

Saying that you believe in Jesus, is like saying you can drive a car if you have a license. It gives you the ability, but there are still other things required.
But yes, you are correct you must believe in Jesus, no one has the ability to overcome sin and love others on their own, so you won't get to heaven without him.

 

[B-A-C]

Only past sin was dealt with at the cross.
Rom 3:25

Now you're getting it. That's why we keep need to confess, and keep needing grace.

Salvation aside for a moment...

Does the Bible say....
Love God?
Love your neighbors?
Confess your sins?
Feed the hungry?
Clothe the poor?
Pray for one another?
Visit orphans and widows and those who are in prison?
Don't murder?
Don't steal?
Don't lie?
Pray for your enemies?
Go forth unto all the word and preach the Gospel?
Bear good fruit?
Show compassion and forgiveness for other people?

...or should we just ignore all of these other things the Bible tells us to do?

 

[Barny]

Yes, this is correct. The ten (or two depending on how you look at it) commandments aren't the ONLY sin you can do, but it's a good guide. However you don't get "un-saved" by not following them. You just get more grace. If we confess our sins, he will forgive us.

We confessed our sin when we first received Christ. After that there is no more sin, as scripture confirms.
We "cannot sin" 1John 3:9.
We've "ceased from sin" 1Pet 4:1.
We're "freed from sin" John 8:36, Rom 6:7,
Who shall lay anything (even sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies", Rom 8:33.

But the doctrine you follow contradicts scripture and says that immediately after we're washed by the blood, we're dirty with sin again. And you also say that Christians are unrighteous due to their failure to obey the law perfectly.

Believing isn't Jesus in itself isn't saves you. (Demons know who Jesus is) Believing in Jesus is what gives you the power to overcome sin, to love others, and live you life for his purpose.

And Christians have overcome on the day we first believed on Jesus. The thief on the cross was an overcomer.

But you contradict scripture and claim that we have not overcome until we attain some ambiguous and unknowable, minimum standard of obedience to the law.

Does the Bible say....
Love God?
Love your neighbors?
Confess your sins?
Feed the hungry?
Clothe the poor?
Pray for one another?
Visit orphans and widows and those who are in prison?
Don't murder?
Don't steal?
Don't lie?
Pray for your enemies?
Go forth unto all the word and preach the Gospel?
Bear good fruit?
Show compassion and forgiveness for other people?
...or should we just ignore all of these other things the Bible tells us to do?

Why would you assume most of the above is not believing in Jesus?

We forgive one another just as God forgave us when we believed on Jesus. We show grace/love to one another just as God showed His grace/love towards us.

Christians bear good fruit which is Christ the firstfruits 1Cor 15:20.

We love God and have submitted to His righteousness when we believe on Jesus.

We confessed our sins when we first received Christ. After that there is no more sin, as scripture confirms.

Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and visiting those in person is all about believing on Jesus such that you will let your light shine, sharing the gospel of Christ to the spiritually hungry, naked, in prison, etc. Here you are referring to Matt 25 where the sheep and goats are separated. But you err in reading this in purely physical terms. And consider that there are even non-believers who feed the hungry, cloth the naked, etc. Are you saying they are saved based on their behavior in spite of their rejecting the gospel of Christ?

Regarding Matt 25 on feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc, we should not see this in purely physical terms. Whilst helping the needy is good, even the non-believers can do that. For Christians we go further by spiritually feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, etc.

Remember, scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.

Consider how God describes terms as found in Matt 25.

What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
1Cor 10:3,4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Who are those in spiritual prison but those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5,6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

How are the spiritually naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

And those without Christ are strangers who need to hear the gospel to be taken into God's kingdom.
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

When we share the gospel of Christ we offer to take in the lost so that they may no longer be strangers.
Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And doing the works of believing in Jesus (John 6:29) Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.
Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Remember, God's will is that we believe on Jesus. And if we love others we will let our light shine by sharing the gospel with them, so that they too can be spiritually healed, clothed, feed and set free from prison.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hello @Barny,
Question:
Are you saying Barny, that any behavior of a believer cannot be seen except as befits a Child of God, even if their actions are no different then that of a Child of the devil?

C4E
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[Barny]

Hello @Barny,
Question:
Are you saying Barny, that any behavior of a believer cannot be seen except as befits a Child of God, even if their actions are no different then that of a Child of the devil?
C4E
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Hi C4E,

I see your focus is on lifestyle/behavior. Are you suggesting that a Christian's lifestyle/behavior must attain some minimum standard in order to be saved?

Let's compare a Christian with a child of the devil.

A Christian obeys God's commandment to believe on Jesus, thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. We're saved by grace.
The thief on the cross next to Jesus was a believer. He had no good behavior/lifestyle to justify his entry into paradise. Yet that thief was seen by God as righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), perfected (Heb 10:14) and without sin (1John 3:9).

And who is a child of the devil?
He who sins is of the devil, 1John 3:8.

What is sin?
Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9;
Unrighteousness, 1John 5:17; (and remember that a Christians faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5)
Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4;. (and remember Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 4:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

Those who are children of the devil do not believe on Jesus. Hence they are unrighteous. Some non-believers (children of the devil) even profess to know God but deny Him through their works of the law for righteousness. And being that they are under the law, then whatever the law says it says to them, Rom 3:19.
Such people are often referred to as legalists. These legalists fail to perfectly obey the law that they place themselves under. Hence they are transgressors of the law/Sinners, guilty of all the law (James 2:10). These legalists are non-believers in that they reject righteousness by faith through their efforts to attain righteousness by works.

In the 2 examples above we can see that it can be difficult to judge whether one is a believer or a child of the devil based on behavior/lifestyle.

King David committed adultery and murder. Would you have judged him as a child of the devil?
God didn't. God put away his sin, just as he did for Christians. But King David was disciplined by God, so we see that no Christian is going to profit by doing wrong.

 

[DHC]

Hello B-A-C.

Good reply as usual well done B-A-C, this is a very difficult subject.

May I ask you two questions?

We know that physical circumcision was no longer enforced according
to Paul.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become
uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to
be circumcised.

We also know that Jesus said.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets;

So B-A-C according to (Genesis 17:10) Abraham was circumcised
into the covenant with God. Also we know from (Leviticus 12:3) that
the Israelites were also circumcised. Christ and all the apostles under
went physical circumcision, e.t.c.

Why does Paul not enforce this original covenant law for entry into the
covenant of Moses for the Gentiles. As far as I am concerned this law was
in effect way before Mt Sinai and long after. It was the initial covenant law with
Abraham!

The second question is a simple question B-A-C.

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever
is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

What was the 'first covenant' and what does 'obsolete' mean?

 

[B-A-C]

Why does Paul not enforce this original covenant law for entry into the
covenant of Moses for the Gentiles. As far as I am concerned this law was
in effect way before Mt Sinai and long after. It was the initial covenant law with
Abraham!

The second question is a simple question B-A-C.

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever
is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

What was the 'first covenant' and what does 'obsolete' mean?

well, First Paul did have Timothy circumcised. So in a way he did enforce it.
Still you are right.

Under the old covenant....
physical circumcision was required. (but not under the new, just a circumcision of the heart)
following the letter of the law 100% was required. (under the new covenant, there is grace that covers the part we are unable to meet 100%)
frequent sacrifices had to be made by priest for sins (under the new covenant, Jesus is our sacrifice)
we had to confess our sins to earthly priests (under the new covenant, we ourselves are priests, and Jesus is our high-priest)

Under the old covenant, people had to follow laws "written on stone". They had to follow them by compulsion. Because if you didn't, you would die.
Under the new covenant, people have God's laws "written on their hearts", we follow them, because we love God and have compassion for our neighbors,
not because we have to under compulsion. This is being led by the Spirit and led by grace, rather than being under the law (of death).

There were other things that changed as well...
for example in the old covenant you could hate your enemies, but not under the new.
under the old, it was an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, but under the new, judgement belongs to God.
under the old, we stoned disobedient children and adulterous people, under the new we don't stone people, we forgive them.

There is much more, I am leaving some things out. I apologize.
But as you said, this is a difficult subject in some ways.

 

[DHC]

Under the old covenant....
physical circumcision was required. (but not under the new, just a circumcision of the heart)
following the letter of the law 100% was required. (under the new covenant, there is grace that covers the part we are unable to meet 100%)
frequent sacrifices had to be made by priest for sins (under the new covenant, Jesus is our sacrifice)
we had to confess our sins to earthly priests (under the new covenant, we ourselves are priests, and Jesus is our high-priest)

.

Hello B-A-C.

Thank you for the answer you gave to my question.

As we both agree this is a very complex subject.

At this point I can only deal with your first answer to the first question.

I do struggle to understand your answer as it seemed vague. I am not sure
whether you are time poor or that you did not understand the question I asked.

Here is the question again.

Why does Paul not enforce this original covenant law for entry into the
covenant of Moses for the Gentiles. As far as the scripture is concerned this law
was in effect way before Mt Sinai and long after. It was the initial covenant law with
Abraham!

To this question you stated the following answer.

Under the old covenant....physical circumcision was required.
(but not under the new, just a circumcision of the heart)

This is not really true B-A-C, the covenant that God had with Israel
included 'a circumcision of the heart'. Here is the text to verify that a
circumcision of the heart was also a necessary part of the old covenant.

Deuteronomy 10
16 So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

I will reject that answer of yours if you do not mind B-A-C.

How about we beef up the original question with an additional text
from Genesis.

Genesis 17
7 I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants
after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant.

We have in the Abrahamic covenant an eternal covenant applied to
Abraham's descendants, with the glaring, distinctive physical requirement.

Genesis 17
10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you
and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

God commanded Abraham to circumcise, why does Paul ignore this
commandment of God B-A-C. God also commanded the Israelites to be
circumcised in (Leviticus 12:2-3). Paul abolishes this command, Paul claims
circumcision or uncircumcision is meaningless. Paul seems to directly
contradict the statement of Jesus.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come
to abolish but to fulfill.

Paul seems to disobey the Abrahamic covenant command and the Mosaic
covenant command. Commands from God Himself never to be abolished.
Then Paul not only flatly defies the statement of Jesus. Paul goes even
further and utters this profound statement below.

Galatians 5:2
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of
no benefit to you.

Do we obey and excommunicate for failure to circumcise B-A-C, obedience!

Or are we excommunicated ourselves by obedience to the eternal covenant command of God?

Have another try at answering the original question B-A-C.

I will reply to the rest of your post when time and space permit.

 

[Antan]

This my brother may come a rather a shock to you!! LOL When Jesus died and rose again for us,he made a brand new covenant with all of his children!! Hebrews 8:6-13 This New covenant replaces the old law. And since there is no law anymore!! Are you ready for this one bro??? LOL This is no sin cast upon any of us!!! 0! NONE! Rom 5:13!! Where this is no law,there is no sin! Now does this mean we are free to do anything we wish now?? May it never be brother! We have been free from the law of sin,so we do not have to be sin thinking anymore.

Your opinion is common in some parts of Christianity, but it is not correct. Simply Law is obviously still valid.
Our society will be crush when peoples start to kill, take others staff, and all that with no sense of guilt at all.

Jesus grant us with more than abolishing prohibition (and good one). He cover our transgressions.

"Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” Rom 4:8
"Blessed is the one
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered." Psalm 32:1,2

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi C4E,

I see your focus is on lifestyle/behavior. Are you suggesting that a Christian's lifestyle/behavior must attain some minimum standard in order to be saved?

So the condemnation of the unbeliever is the law, only due to their unbelief in Christ Jesus.

This may take another post to get there, because it requires a simple answer to what can be made into a rather complex question. I do believe you will understand. It is a must answer question; so much so, that I made a poll question of it, which I hope might be beneficial to others as well.

Question: “Is not loving a sin?”

This has to be either yes, no or I don't know. I have a reasonable expectation, on how you will answer, yet it still needs the asking. In a way this is for others as well, which is why I made a poll question out of it.
YBIC
C4E
Note: Anyone else is welcome to answer it here or at the poll question thread.
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