What does Jesus mean when he says

David777 · Jan 15, 2013

B-A-C said:
My do people use this verse as some comfort or protection against the commandments? That isn't what it says here at all.
It says even though the Gentiles didn't know the Law they will still be condemned to destruction. Rom 2:12

Hello B-A-C.

I was not using this verse against the ten commandments?

I was using the verse to show bgsda that Paul said,

"for until the Law sin was in the world"
In other words, the ten commandments were not in
effect before Mt Sinai. Especially not in the legal sense
that bgsda would require.

I do not disagree with the use of the ten for evangelism
purposes B-A-C. Why did you think that?

David777 · Jan 15, 2013

bgsda said:
David you love the book of Rom especially cpt 3-6. Why?. Back to your last point, i disagree. Watch how easy it is to take something out of the Word of God and twist it. So you take that verse to mean that no one sinned before the Law was given, ill prove you wrong. Read 2Peter 2:4.

Please try to remember the definition of sin?1John 3:4/ Rom7:7/ James 2:12

Hello bgsda.

I never said that "no one sinned before the law".

The quote I used is what Paul said,

"for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

Paul is saying that before the pronouncement of the Law by God
at Mt Sinai, sin was already present. Sin was introduced into
creation by Adam and death was also unleashed upon mankind
at the same time. Adam did not break any of the ten commandments
bgsda. Adam's sin was a unique disobedience.

This is a fundamental truth that Romans explains so well.

So whether you were obedient to the law(?) or not, death
prevailed over all mankind. So why add the law bgsda?

brakelite · Jan 15, 2013

David777 said:
It is very important that everyone understands the
importance of the difference between law and grace.

Any blend of the law with grace is a complete failure
in understanding the new covenant announced by
Jesus Christ to humanity.

At the heart of almost all doctrinal error and heresy
is a deficient comprehension of the Gospel of Jesus
Christ. It is and always will be what Christ has done,
not what we can do. Redemption in the blood of
Christ is a completed act, God's work of Love for
us.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A gift is only free when there are no conditions attached.
You cannot be saved by an amalgamation of the cross
and works which many churches proclaim. This is pure
heresy, an attack upon the free gift of eternal life granted
to us by God himself.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that
not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Our salvation is not dependent on our ability to conform
to any standard, it is a gift freely bestowed in love to us who
believe. By Grace not by works, you are not saved by
compliance with any law or standard. Not of yourselves.

Legalism always attempts to wear the mask of grace.
.....................................................*
Legalism is the very heart of the unregenerate soul.
Legalism lacks the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Legalism is not what Christ has done but what you
can do to receive salvation.

1 Corinthians 2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ,
and Him crucified.

Let go of every other thought and focus only on the
crucified Christ. God will take care of the rest as
He has already proclaimed.

Agree with all the above David777, although I do have some questions regarding this...
Legalism will always add condition(s) to the Gospel.

Is believing a condition? How about repentance? Faithfulness? Abiding in Christ? Forgiving others? Obedience (Hebrews 5:9)?

Here is another condition:

Romans 6:16-22 gives us two choices. Either we yield ourselves to God, or we yield ourselves to sin. Two choices. One or the other. We are either a slave of God's, or we are a slave to sin. If we are not a slave to God, you are still a slave, but to sin.
To be a slave to God, we must walk the path of self denial. If we do not surrender totally and completely, we are not His slave. Slaves do not question His authority, nor are half hearted in their commitment. Slaves are completely yielded to the will of their Master, just as Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemene. Utterly given over without question to their Master, their Lord.

Jesus said:Matt. 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

If we do not take up our cross and walk the path of complete self denial Jesus says we are not worthy of Him. We cannot be an almost Christian. There is no such thing. A Christian is someone who is wholly committed and surrendered; is fully yielded to His Master. If not; if we are only partially Christian, we are wholly lost.

These are just a select few of the many conditions I believe that the scriptures show are necessary to finally receivng the promises of God.

Aside from the subject of conditional salvation, is there someone on these forums actually suggesting that we can be saved by our obedience to God's commandments like you suggest in your post? I would be very surprised if there is, because it so so very clear that we are saved only by the grace of God.

PS Now you may see a contradiction between 'free grace' as you call it and conditional salvation. But it is God who has written His word through His Spirit. You say grace and law don't mix. With regards to our justification, I agree. But with regards to our ultimate salvation and receiving of eternal life, we need to reconcile the significance and meanings between Matthew 10:38, John 14:15 and Ephesians 2:8,9.

Christ4Ever · Jan 15, 2013

Tribulation said:
Also, remember the Bible is completely astrological. This is fact. And needs to be addressed more here on this site.

The milk is good for children. But the meat is the actual TRUTH of the Bible.

Psalms 84:11 "For The Lord God is a Sun"
John 1:5 "God is light"

Jesus is a metaphor for the Sun.

Hello Tribulation,

I pray that you don't intend to bring your name here (Tribulation).

ray:

First you provide very little of yourself/belief in your Bio. May we assume that you are not a Christian? Also, your acceptance of "astrological" usage, as being deficient on this site, you seem to see as being a negative? Why is that?

So I must say by you utilizing singular words from verses, to make your point, lacks context of scripture as a whole and fails to see the use of the metaphorical throughout Scripture.

Now whether a believer in Christ Jesus as your Savior (If so you should state so.), or not (This also should be stated.); astrology is not something that has God has shown approval for.

With that being said..........I Hope that TJ, can provide you the ability to either know the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, if he's not already, or to grow in your life and walk in the spirit.
C4E

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

oNotShowComments/> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w

oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w

ontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <w

ontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <w

ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

David777 · Jan 16, 2013

brakelite said:
Agree with all the above David777, although I do have some questions regarding this...
Legalism will always add condition(s) to the Gospel.

Is believing a condition? How about repentance? Faithfulness? Abiding in Christ? Forgiving others? Obedience (Hebrews 5:9)?

Here is another condition:

Romans 6:16-22 gives us two choices. Either we yield ourselves to God, or we yield ourselves to sin. Two choices. One or the other. We are either a slave of God's, or we are a slave to sin. If we are not a slave to God, you are still a slave, but to sin.
To be a slave to God, we must walk the path of self denial. If we do not surrender totally and completely, we are not His slave. Slaves do not question His authority, nor are half hearted in their commitment. Slaves are completely yielded to the will of their Master, just as Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemene. Utterly given over without question to their Master, their Lord.

Jesus said:Matt. 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

If we do not take up our cross and walk the path of complete self denial Jesus says we are not worthy of Him. We cannot be an almost Christian. There is no such thing. A Christian is someone who is wholly committed and surrendered; is fully yielded to His Master. If not; if we are only partially Christian, we are wholly lost.

These are just a select few of the many conditions I believe that the scriptures show are necessary to finally receivng the promises of God.

Aside from the subject of conditional salvation, is there someone on these forums actually suggesting that we can be saved by our obedience to God's commandments like you suggest in your post? I would be very surprised if there is, because it so so very clear that we are saved only by the grace of God.

PS Now you may see a contradiction between 'free grace' as you call it and conditional salvation. But it is God who has written His word through His Spirit. You say grace and law don't mix. With regards to our justification, I agree. But with regards to our ultimate salvation and receiving of eternal life, we need to reconcile the significance and meanings between Matthew 10:38, John 14:15 and Ephesians 2:8,9.

I do indeed see a contradiction brakelite, the problem
or paradox does exist in what you stated.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The free gift according to your interpretation is not free
at all. It is based on your ability or performance to selected
criteria. Salvation itself is not granted to us in Grace but
is subject to a performance review?

jasonsloss · Jan 16, 2013

brakelite said:
Agree with all the above David777, although I do have some questions regarding this...
Legalism will always add condition(s) to the Gospel.

Is believing a condition? How about repentance? Faithfulness? Abiding in Christ? Forgiving others? Obedience (Hebrews 5:9)?

Here is another condition:

Romans 6:16-22 gives us two choices. Either we yield ourselves to God, or we yield ourselves to sin. Two choices. One or the other. We are either a slave of God's, or we are a slave to sin. If we are not a slave to God, you are still a slave, but to sin.
To be a slave to God, we must walk the path of self denial. If we do not surrender totally and completely, we are not His slave. Slaves do not question His authority, nor are half hearted in their commitment. Slaves are completely yielded to the will of their Master, just as Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemene. Utterly given over without question to their Master, their Lord.

Jesus said:Matt. 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

If we do not take up our cross and walk the path of complete self denial Jesus says we are not worthy of Him. We cannot be an almost Christian. There is no such thing. A Christian is someone who is wholly committed and surrendered; is fully yielded to His Master. If not; if we are only partially Christian, we are wholly lost.

These are just a select few of the many conditions I believe that the scriptures show are necessary to finally receivng the promises of God.

Aside from the subject of conditional salvation, is there someone on these forums actually suggesting that we can be saved by our obedience to God's commandments like you suggest in your post? I would be very surprised if there is, because it so so very clear that we are saved only by the grace of God.

PS Now you may see a contradiction between 'free grace' as you call it and conditional salvation. But it is God who has written His word through His Spirit. You say grace and law don't mix. With regards to our justification, I agree. But with regards to our ultimate salvation and receiving of eternal life, we need to reconcile the significance and meanings between Matthew 10:38, John 14:15 and Ephesians 2:8,9.

these scriptures that you have quoted ( Matthew 10:38, John 14:15 and Ephesians 2:8,9) what is there to reconcile there is no conditions as you speak of in these scriptures and as for denying ones self to follow Jesus, this is not a condition it is a realization that we can not do it and we need Christ...[h=4][/h]
you referred to slaves to God... walking this path is not self denial it is denying ones flesh and living in the Spirit... when jesus said we must deny ourselves He was talking about putting Him first in your life not actual self denial... look here at [h=4]Luke 14:26[/h]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple
do you think Jesus was really talking about hating family members and also hating yourself??? no this is once again putting Him first in your life and this is a choice... to believe in a conditional salvation is to say God requires something of the unbeliever before they can recieve the free gift which would not be a free gift if this was true... when one truly excepts Crist into there lives there is a change that happens and we immediately give ourselves to God and a sanctification process begins... Jesus told the Jewish leaders that they think they can find eternal life through the law and he told them they were wrong... Paul teaches us that we are saved by grace... Peter teaches us how to be obedient after being saved... James warns of trying to hold the law... John teaches us how to love with God's love... not one of them teach us that you are saved by grace now hold the law...

jiggyfly · Jan 16, 2013

Nice post Jason and to add scripture to what you have said, Paul said;

Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.
Col 2:18-19 (NLT)

brakelite · Jan 16, 2013

David777 said:
I do indeed see a contradiction brakelite, the problem
or paradox does exist in what you stated.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The free gift according to your interpretation is not free
at all. It is based on your ability or performance to selected
criteria. Salvation itself is not granted to us in Grace but
is subject to a performance review?

David, if the law was designed to reveal sin, and grace designed to save from sin, how can there be any incompatability or conflict between them? The law was never designed to save, nor was grace ever desingned to point out sin. Thus rather than being incompatable, they are in fact complimentary, so long as they are being used for the purpose for which they are intended. There can be no conflict between the two priciples, because they are both designed to operate in distinctly different areas of spiritual life, and for very different purposes.

Conflict doesn't arise until someone attempts to use the law for the purpose of salvation, thus imposing the law into grace's territory so to speak. The problem you are having is your inability to recognise and understand that obedience can also be by grace. It all comes down to motivation. As sinners we can attempt to obey the law out of fear of hell, and we will fail. As sinners we are asked to do something, obey, that we didn't really want to do. Righteousness or holiness was to us an obnoxious sentiment to be avoided at all costs. The Ten Commandemnts were irritating sores we would ignore, scratch, cover over, apply medication to...anything to get rid of the itch. As Christian however our hearts are changed. The law becomes a delight. To obey Jesus commands is our greatest pleasure. Why? Because our motives have changed. We aren't obeying out of fear, not even to gain brownie points on the way to heaven. We obey because we love Jesus. The commandments have become commandments of grace.
And as we surrender ourselves in faith, believing Christ's promises of power and grace toward us, the commandments become promises.
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
Thou shalt not make any graven image.
Thou shalt not take the My name in vain.
Thou shalt remember to keep holy My Sabbath day.
Thou shalt honour you parents.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not lie.
Thou shalt not covet.

God's word becomes a creative power...He writes His law upon our hearts and minds....through His grace and power our obedience becomes an unconcious reality. All we need to be is willing, and God will do the rest. All by grace.
Therefore, far from grace and law being somehow incompatable bedfellows, they compliment each other perfectly.
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Son in the likeness of sinful fleash and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." Romans 8:3,4.

Thus our surrender, our self denial, become imperative to salvation, because without emptying ourslves of self, we cannot be filled with His Spirit. God will only fill a vacuum. He doesn't impose, He doesn't push aside or cast out anything that we desire to hold on to, including sin. Sanctification is a process of submission on our part and gracious changes for the better on God's part. Obedience is our choice David. You can obey all His commandments by His grace, if you let Him accomplish all He desires. This is presicely what it means to be changed into the image of Christ. We were created in the image of Christ, but that image become corrupted and marred through sin. God would have it that we regain that which Adam lost, characters moulded after Christ's own righteousness. Children of God walking in the power of the Holy Spirit with obedient, submissive, child-like characters who love and follow Jesus wherever He leads.

brakelite · Jan 16, 2013

jasonsloss said:
these scriptures that you have quoted ( Matthew 10:38, John 14:15 and Ephesians 2:8,9) what is there to reconcile there is no conditions as you speak of in these scriptures and as for denying ones self to follow Jesus, this is not a condition it is a realization that we can not do it and we need Christ...
you referred to slaves to God... walking this path is not self denial it is denying ones flesh and living in the Spirit... when jesus said we must deny ourselves He was talking about putting Him first in your life not actual self denial... look here at Luke 14:26

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple
do you think Jesus was really talking about hating family members and also hating yourself??? no this is once again putting Him first in your life and this is a choice... to believe in a conditional salvation is to say God requires something of the unbeliever before they can recieve the free gift which would not be a free gift if this was true... when one truly excepts Crist into there lives there is a change that happens and we immediately give ourselves to God and a sanctification process begins... Jesus told the Jewish leaders that they think they can find eternal life through the law and he told them they were wrong... Paul teaches us that we are saved by grace... Peter teaches us how to be obedient after being saved... James warns of trying to hold the law... John teaches us how to love with God's love... not one of them teach us that you are saved by grace now hold the law...

Hi Jasonsloss.
I am confused as to what you mean...not self denial but denying ones flesh. I have always considered they mean the same thing. That tjis is precisely what Jesus m,eant when he said:
Matt. 16:24....If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Now Jesus is here talking about a salvific matter. Losing ones soul is an eternal matter. The other option to losing ones soul is denying self and wholly folowing Jesus. My simple reading of this passage without adding any personal construct to it tells me that denying ones self is a condition of salvation.

jasonsloss · Jan 16, 2013

brakelite said:
Hi Jasonsloss.
I am confused as to what you mean...not self denial but denying ones flesh. I have always considered they mean the same thing. That tjis is precisely what Jesus m,eant when he said:
Matt. 16:24....If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Now Jesus is here talking about a salvific matter. Losing ones soul is an eternal matter. The other option to losing ones soul is denying self and wholly folowing Jesus. My simple reading of this passage without adding any personal construct to it tells me that denying ones self is a condition of salvation.

each huan being on God's created earth is signifiantly different and this is what makes each person unique.. we are born a sinner and this is what God wants to change... God does not want to change who we are but what we are and for us to allow God to do this we have to reconize that we are sinners in need of a Saviour and as to do this we have to deny our flesh (not deny who we are) and put Christ first in our lives... see God wants to take who we are and make us better and then use who we are for His purpose...

Matthew 16:24-26 ....24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

in this Jesus is referring to a an eternal choice, either you can continue in the world and you will lose your life or you can reconize that you are a sinner and deny the flesh/world and follow Him and gain eternal life with Christ... It's a choice we have to make...

this is why we are to not just read scripture but we are to dig in and see what message God is trying to give us or teach us and then see how the Holy Spirit can apply it to our lives... God has bless us with so many biblical tools that so few of us use... God does not need us to interpret scripture He has given us His interpretation He wants us to learn and apply what we learn about Him...

revbrad · Jan 16, 2013

Tribulation

Tribulation said:
Also, remember the Bible is completely astrological. This is fact. And needs to be addressed more here on this site.

The milk is good for children. But the meat is the actual TRUTH of the Bible.

Psalms 84:11 "For The Lord God is a Sun"
John 1:5 "God is light"

Jesus is a metaphor for the Sun.

For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly. Ps 84:11

Is He also a a metaphor for a shield?

The metaphor is light and protection. The light that shines in darkness to show men their sin.

John 8:12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 9:5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
John 12:46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Act 26:18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

What do you mean the Bible is astrological?

Jesus is THE SON

brakelite · Jan 16, 2013

jasonsloss said:
each huan being on God's created earth is signifiantly different and this is what makes each person unique.. we are born a sinner and this is what God wants to change... God does not want to change who we are but what we are and for us to allow God to do this we have to reconize that we are sinners in need of a Saviour and as to do this we have to deny our flesh (not deny who we are) and put Christ first in our lives... see God wants to take who we are and make us better and then use who we are for His purpose...

Matthew 16:24-26 ....24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

in this Jesus is referring to a an eternal choice, either you can continue in the world and you will lose your life or you can reconize that you are a sinner and deny the flesh/world and follow Him and gain eternal life with Christ... It's a choice we have to make...

this is why we are to not just read scripture but we are to dig in and see what message God is trying to give us or teach us and then see how the Holy Spirit can apply it to our lives... God has bless us with so many biblical tools that so few of us use... God does not need us to interpret scripture He has given us His interpretation He wants us to learn and apply what we learn about Him...

Okay, I think I see the distinction you are making and I would agree with that. God desires to change our characters...our personalities are our own, and can be used to the glory of God once our characters are moulded into His image.

jasonsloss · Jan 16, 2013

brakelite said:
Okay, I think I see the distinction you are making and I would agree with that. God desires to change our characters...our personalities are our own, and can be used to the glory of God once our characters are moulded into His image.

Praise be to God who taught me this in a harsh way... lol

David777 · Jan 16, 2013

brakelite said:
Thus our surrender, our self denial, become imperative to salvation, because without emptying ourslves of self, we cannot be filled with His Spirit. God will only fill a vacuum. He doesn't impose, He doesn't push aside or cast out anything that we desire to hold on to, including sin. Sanctification is a process of submission on our part and gracious changes for the better on God's part. Obedience is our choice David.

Hello brakelite.

I read your reply brakelite, it is the last paragraph
you wrote that concerns me the most. In particular
the first line which I have colored red.

There you have it brakelite, you have stipulated that
salvation may only be obtained through the Gospel
plus the act of self denial.

I knew that you would specify at least an additional
instruction to the Gospel message. This creates the
paradox, the illogical argument, inconsistency with
what is stated in the New Testament.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord,
and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the
dead, you will be saved;

See the word "saved" in the sentence above and note
the two conditions, believe and confess. It does not
say believe, confess and deny oneself brakelite.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Eternal life through belief in Jesus, it does not say what
you say the Gospel is.

John 3:17-18
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes
in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged
already, because he has not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.

Here is a proof text which should refute your previous post.

Acts 11
14 and he will speak words to you by which you
will be saved, you and all your household.’
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them
just as He did upon us at the beginning.
16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He
used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

The Holy Spirit fell on those who believed the message
Peter spoke. These recipients of the Holy Spirit had not
emptied themselves, they had only just heard the Gospel.
This infilling as you call it began the moment Peter
started to speak. There was no self denial brakelite, what
you stated is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In addition,
note that the first verse uses the word "saved".

Acts 16
30...“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be
saved, you and your household.”

No mention of self denial, only the Gospel.

Why you do not enlarge brakelites' gospel with
the following,

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly
Father will also forgive you.

Jesus Christ plus, without constantly forgiving others you will
not be forgiven?

You forgot about throwing away your possessions.
Plus 100 other conditions?

Why pick self denial, I am banging my head on the keyboard
now.

brakelite · Jan 17, 2013

David777 said:
Hello brakelite.

I read your reply brakelite, it is the last paragraph
you wrote that concerns me the most. In particular
the first line which I have colored red.

There you have it brakelite, you have stipulated that
salvation may only be obtained through the Gospel
plus the act of self denial.

I knew that you would specify at least an additional
instruction to the Gospel message. This creates the
paradox, the illogical argument, inconsistency with
what is stated in the New Testament.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord,
and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the
dead, you will be saved;

See the word "saved" in the sentence above and note
the two conditions, believe and confess. It does not
say believe, confess and deny oneself brakelite.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Eternal life through belief in Jesus, it does not say what
you say the Gospel is.

John 3:17-18
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes
in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged
already, because he has not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.

Here is a proof text which should refute your previous post.

Acts 11
14 and he will speak words to you by which you
will be saved, you and all your household.’
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them
just as He did upon us at the beginning.
16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He
used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

The Holy Spirit fell on those who believed the message
Peter spoke. These recipients of the Holy Spirit had not
emptied themselves, they had only just heard the Gospel.
This infilling as you call it began the moment Peter
started to speak. There was no self denial brakelite, what
you stated is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In addition,
note that the first verse uses the word "saved".

Acts 16
30...“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be
saved, you and your household.”

No mention of self denial, only the Gospel.

Why you do not enlarge brakelites' gospel with
the following,

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly
Father will also forgive you.

Jesus Christ plus, without constantly forgiving others you will
not be forgiven?

You forgot about throwing away your possessions.
Plus 100 other conditions?

Why pick self denial, I am banging my head on the keyboard
now.

David, read your quote from Romans 10 in context, starting from verse 1. Israel failed to be saved...why??? because they would not submit to God's righteousness, which we must do to be saved. Believing and confessing includes submission. According to Paul. And the Holy Spirit. And Jesus.

PS In case you are missing the point, self denial is the same as submission. Or surrender. Or taking up our cross and following Christ. Or a host of other expressions all meaning the same thing.

David777 · Jan 17, 2013

brakelite said:
David, read your quote from Romans 10 in context, starting from verse 1. Israel failed to be saved...why??? because they would not submit to God's righteousness, which we must do to be saved. Believing and confessing includes submission. According to Paul. And the Holy Spirit. And Jesus.

PS In case you are missing the point, self denial is the same as submission. Or surrender. Or taking up our cross and following Christ. Or a host of other expressions all meaning the same thing.

Excellent reply at last, brakelite.

You mentioned context and that makes me happy.

Yes, yes, (Romans 9,10,11) is about physical Israel.

You seem to agree that the Gospel is only the simple.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord,
and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the
dead, you will be saved;

What about receiving the Holy Spirit, you did not
comment on that.

Puddleglum · Jan 17, 2013

David777 said:
Excellent reply at last, brakelite.

You mentioned context and that makes me happy.

Yes, yes, (Romans 9,10,11) is about physical Israel.

You seem to agree that the Gospel is only the simple.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord,
and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the
dead, you will be saved;

What about receiving the Holy Spirit, you did not
comment on that.

Romans 9 10 11 do show the difference between physical and the Spiritual Israel, and the Spirit lead Israel is the very foundation as with out the Spirit leading the way, it is not Israel at all.
The fact is that, it's the Spirit that is above all, and the people are nothing at all, with out the Spirit.

One should be on gaurd the the works of Satan, he plays his cards very well indeed.
Stop Idolising a race.
Stop leading people astray with worldly narrowminds simplification as a means of believing they are saved by a one time simpleton act.
When you get baptised that does not guarantee salvation.
When one gets born again that is the the beginning not the end, as you have not arrived, but only just started.
Don't believe that your salvation is a done deal, as it is not a done deal at all, as that is just a worldly boastfulness on the part of your ego! Read Romans 12 13 14 .
Fact is no one can say who is going or who is not. all we can do is look to and abide in him, not go about boasting with a fist full of EGO!

David777 · Jan 17, 2013

Puddleglum said:
Romans 9 10 11 do show the difference between physical and the Spiritual Israel, and the Spirit lead Israel is the very foundation as with out the Spirit leading the way, it is not Israel at all.
The fact is that, it's the Spirit that is above all, and the people are nothing at all, with out the Spirit.

One should be on gaurd the the works of Satan, he plays his cards very well indeed.
Stop Idolising a race.
Stop leading people astray with worldly narrowminds simplification as a means of believing they are saved by a one time simpleton act.
When you get baptised that does not guarantee salvation.
When one gets born again that is the the beginning not the end, as you have not arrived, but only just started.
Don't believe that your salvation is a done deal, as it is not a done deal at all, as that is just a worldly boastfulness on the part of your ego! Read Romans 12 13 14 .
Fact is no one can say who is going or who is not. all we can do is look to and abide in him, not go about boasting with a fist full of EGO!

Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were
sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to
the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

You only have to respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ
and you are sealed in Jesus with the Holy Spirit.

This is what God has stated, Ephesians 1 is not my doing.

It is what Christ has done for us, not what we can do
to be saved. We are not doing it, it is done.

I am perplexed at how many folk there are who do
not understand the Gospel?

Puddleglum · Jan 18, 2013

David777 said:
Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were
sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to
the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

You only have to respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ
and you are sealed in Jesus with the Holy Spirit.

This is what God has stated, Ephesians 1 is not my doing.

It is what Christ has done for us, not what we can do
to be saved. We are not doing it, it is done.

I am perplexed at how many folk there are who do
not understand the Gospel?

And in responding you do Christ work. not of your work at all.
What Jesus did was done, but the Spirit moves within us today, just as it did from the start.
I am perplexed how many people just don't get it. you have to abide in Christ and if you don't you will be cut off. why do you think he said about the labourers are few. we have to work in Christ. What do you think the Church is ? the Body of Christ !

What i see people doing is claiming to be going to Heaven and just saying with their mouth, i believe. and that's all there is to it, they say. then they runabout doing the work of Satan and i am sure Jesus will say he never knew them, for they never abide in him at all. but lead people astray with there worldly interpretations.
You must be Spiritually lead first and foremost or you are not even on the path.

I think anyone who poo poos the commandments is just looking for trouble and i get sick of people trying to push straight out lies about how a Christian should perceive the commandments, as it is definitely not as a Jew looks at it at all. as Christians we don't just toss it away, as completely meaning less, even rejecting everything about it as bad and totally worthless. as some hear are pushing, so it goes around and round, getting no where, because they demanded you are coming from a Jew position, and that's a total lie, but they are happy to push this line. why ? is it because of there OSAS doctrine and tooth fairy type god.
If we don't abide in Christ we will come crashing down and be sorted out. Heaven help us ! these people think it's all over and want to sit around like lame ducks. it's hard for me to see the Holy Spirit working in them at all. it's like they are lazie and gutless even useless.
A mate of mine is like this type of christian, and i say get your self together man and stop smoking dope drinking like an idiot and being easily lead by your desires and wake up to your self and turn to the the real Jesus. and now he is at deaths door his liver is shot and he is only 47. who are these people that love to lead one astray.

David777 · Jan 18, 2013

Matthew 5

21 “You have heard that the ancients were told,
‘You shall not commit murder’ and
‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’

22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his
brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says
to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before
the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool (or idiot),’
shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Puddlegum, you said,

"A mate of mine is like this type of christian, and i say get your self
together man and stop smoking dope drinking like an idiot."

Well Puddlegum you have just broken the sixth
commandment, you called your friend "an idiot".

So you and your friend are both in the same
predicament, living by the flesh and not by the
spirit. You are a commandment breaker!

Sorry puddlegum for being harsh but you proclaim
the ten commandments and break them in the same
breath.

Welcome!

What does Jesus mean when he says

Member

Member

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Members Online

Trending content

Newest members

Community Stats