What Is HELL ?

[Charlie24]

I actually agree with this statement, none of us are immortal quite yet.

Mark 10:30; but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luke 18:30; who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Luke 20:35; but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Luke 20:36; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

No humans have ascended to heaven, not yet.. ( there could be a few notable exceptions, Elijah, Enoch, Jesus )

Prov 30:4; Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know!
John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34; "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

Yes, I am familiar with this verse.

2Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

It seems to conflict with the verses above, but the obvious answer to reconcile these is... when are we absent from the body?

1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Right now, only Jesus has eternal life.... however that will change in the future. Right now, no one has ascended to heaven nor can see Jesus there.

1 Cor. 15:53-54

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

It's the physical body that's not yet immortal. That takes place at the resurrection, then and only then is our salvation completed.

The soul and spirit of man is not subject to physical death, it's not mortal, therefore it's immortal.

Christ said, don't fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell.

The word "destroy" in this verse is not inhalation, we can plainly see in Scripture they are punished for eternity.

 

[B-A-C]

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

The word "destroy" in this verse is not inhalation, we can plainly see in Scripture they are punished for eternity.

I actually agree with everything you say here. I'm getting to those points... but first we have to get to the "dead will rise again" to answer @Butch5

1Cor 15:13; But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
1Cor 15:14; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Cor 15:15; Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
1Cor 15:16; For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Cor 15:17; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

 

[Butch5]

Before we get to that point, we have to at least realize everyone gets resurrected, even the unsaved.
Everyone comes back to life...

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

How are "the dead" .. "standing" up if they are dead?

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

I agree. Everyone will be resurrected. They have to be in order for there to be a second death.

 

[Butch5]

1 Cor. 15:53-54

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

It's the physical body that's not yet immortal. That takes place at the resurrection, then and only then is our salvation completed.

The soul and spirit of man is not subject to physical death, it's not mortal, therefore it's immortal.

Christ said, don't fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell.

The word "destroy" in this verse is not inhalation, we can plainly see in Scripture they are punished for eternity.

You're presuming this. Please, for your own sake, show where man is immortal. Your entire argument is based on the assumption that man is immortal. I disagree. Since that's what you're claiming you should make the case. I made the claim that man is mortal and I made the case for it.

 

[Butch5]

Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality.

I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim 6:13-16)

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

 

[Charlie24]

You're presuming this. Please, for your own sake, show where man is immortal. Your entire argument is based on the assumption that man is immortal. I disagree. Since that's what you're claiming you should make the case. I made the claim that man is mortal and I made the case for it.

Post #201

 

[Charlie24]

Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality.

I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim 6:13-16)

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

I should have known better than responding to any of your posts.

You won't have to worry about that ever happening again.

 

[Butch5]

Post #201

That says man is mortal. Not immortal.

 

[Butch5]

I should have known better than responding to any of your posts.

You won't have to worry about that ever happening again.

Do go Charlie. This is how iron sharpens iron. We all bring presuppositions to the text. The problem is that many times, if not most, we never test those presuppositions against Scripture to see if they are correct. Often we just assume they are. This is an opportunity to test your presupposition that man is immortal against Scripture to see if it's correct.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Br. Bear,

I'm good how are you? Give me a few days to reply here. I'm really busy trying to finish up a job.

Hi @Br. Bear

Here are a couple of passages that state or imply that God is eternal without the use of the word aion or olam.

24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days:
Thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth:
And the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure:
Yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment;
As a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same,
And thy years shall have no end.
28 The children of thy servants shall continue,
And their seed shall be established before thee.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 102:24–28.

6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.

Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton, The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament: English Translation (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1870), Is 9:6–7.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 1:30–33.

Psalm 102 states plainly that God's years are without end. The statement doesn't use the word olam.

Then we have the statements from Isaiah and Luke that the Kingdom is without end. If the Kingdom is without end then it implies that God is without end. Now, some are going to claim that this is a reference to Jesus and not God. However, Paul tells us that Jesus only reigns in the Kingdom of a time.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:23–28.

As we see from Paul, Jesus reigns until all things are put under Him. Then He Himself turns the Kingdom over to the Father. So, it's the Father who reigns for eternity. The Kingdom shall have no end.

We can establish from this that God is without end and He will rule over a Kingdom that is without end. All of this can be established without using the words aion or olam. So, to claim that aion does not mean eternity in no way indicates that God is not eternal. On the contrary, to say aion doesn't mean eternal clears up many problematic issues where the word aion is translated forever or everlasting where it clearly doesn't mean either.

 

[KingJ]

That's the disagreement. I don't believe in Platonic Dualism. Platonic Dualism says that man is a soul/spirit that lives on after the body dies. The Bible says no such thing.

The flip side of that is that what you've said requires that the wicked receive eternal life. Again, where do the Scriputres promise eternal life to the unbeliever? Also, if man has an immortal soul, why did God promise eternal life to those who believe? What's the point if they already have eternal life?

We see clearly in Scriputre what the contrast to eternal life is. It is death.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

In both of these passages we see the contrast of eternal life and in both it's death.

There's nothing here about eternal torment. The righteous get life and the wicked get death.

Butch, you cherry pick logic. Using your reasoning, Jesus should not exist right now. Death should be annihilation. You must not believe any can be saved........

What logic you are dodging is the fact that if the wages of sin is death and the death of Jesus satisfied God's demands, then what Jesus endured is clearly ''death''.

1. Beaten and bruised for our iniquities Isa 53:10
2. Crucified / physical death Matt 27
3. Completely abandoned by God Matt 27:46

1 + 2 + 3 = Death

Now, those that go to hell suffer all three. We see how the wicked are swiftly removed against their will from the earth by God. With for example a flood or sulfur and brimstone.
Jesus gives us a literal story of a person suffering in agonizing flames (not torturous!!!!!!! as many erroneously teach) in Luke 16 and there are many scriptures that mention eternal separation.

Your argument is thus moot. The only argument that remains is universalism. Should the wicked be given a chance in heaven after a period of suffering for their sins? Scripture clearly says no. God is not a fool that would cast into hell someone who would one-day be able to truly repent. God judges depths of hearts and minds as only He can Jer 17:9-12 and therefore He can make final and lasting decisions.

Punishment is eternal as the wicked continue to be evil. They don't oneday wakeup and desire to turn the left cheek and love their neighbor as themselves. The lake of fire is therefore as much a home for the wicked as it is a place of torment.

And lastly, you dodged the argument I raised against your belief in this thread. Capital punishment is NOT a fitting punishment for all sinners. That is unjust. God is not unjust. It SHOULD be unthinkable for a Christian to suggest God is evil or unjust Job 34:12.

Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

 

[Br. Bear]

Hi @Br. Bear

Here are a couple of passages that state or imply that God is eternal without the use of the word aion or olam.

24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days:
Thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth:
And the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure:
Yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment;
As a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same,
And thy years shall have no end.
28 The children of thy servants shall continue,
And their seed shall be established before thee.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 102:24–28.

6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.

Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton, The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament: English Translation (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1870), Is 9:6–7.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 1:30–33.

Psalm 102 states plainly that God's years are without end. The statement doesn't use the word olam.

Then we have the statements from Isaiah and Luke that the Kingdom is without end. If the Kingdom is without end then it implies that God is without end. Now, some are going to claim that this is a reference to Jesus and not God. However, Paul tells us that Jesus only reigns in the Kingdom of a time.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:23–28.

As we see from Paul, Jesus reigns until all things are put under Him. Then He Himself turns the Kingdom over to the Father. So, it's the Father who reigns for eternity. The Kingdom shall have no end.

We can establish from this that God is without end and He will rule over a Kingdom that is without end. All of this can be established without using the words aion or olam. So, to claim that aion does not mean eternity in no way indicates that God is not eternal. On the contrary, to say aion doesn't mean eternal clears up many problematic issues where the word aion is translated forever or everlasting where it clearly doesn't mean either.

Thank you @Butch5

I shall get back to you.



Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5

Greetings again Brother,

This (portion) comes to mind...

But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

I give thee charge in the sight of God, Who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, Who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Which in His times He shall shew, Who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to Whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen
1Timothy 6:11-16


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5

Greetings again Brother,

This (portion) comes to mind...

But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

I give thee charge in the sight of God, Who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, Who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Which in His times He shall shew, Who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to Whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen
1Timothy 6:11-16


Bless you ....><>

Yes, that passage states that the Father alone has immortality. That's going to be part of a post I'll posting.

 

[Butch5]

Guys, we really need to address the elephant in the room. The doctrine of eternal torment requires that the wicked live eternally.

Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality.

I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim 6:13-16)King James Version.

In this passage we see that the only one who has immortality is the one no man has seen nor can see. That's the Father. That means that no human has immortality. Paul also said that God gives life to all things. It's present tense, is giving. That means that everything that is alive, is alive because God presently is giving it life. Since the Father is the source of all life and is the only one who is immortal, no one can live apart from God giving them life. So, unless someone can show where in Scripture God promised eternal life to the wicked, it's not there, the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment is false.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5

Greetings again Brother,

This (portion) comes to mind...

But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

I give thee charge in the sight of God, Who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, Who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Which in His times He shall shew, Who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to Whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen
1Timothy 6:11-16


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br Bear,

I've written a book on this subject. I can give you a link of you'd like.

 

[B-A-C]

It seems that we keep having circular discussions about the same things over and over again.

The Bible uses two words, one is aion, from where we get the word "eon", and the other is "aionios", which means eternal, never ending.
Even if you go to Google translate today, open the Greek to English Tab, type in either aion, or aionios, and see what word comes back.

So you have to be careful the context of which word is being used and when.

The other thing that important in the Bible is tense. Past tense, Present tense, and Future tense. Generally, these are pretty easy to discern from the language in the verse.

There appear to be two prevailing theologies here. One group believes when you die, your spirit immediately goes up to heaven. The other group believes you just "sleep"
until the resurrection. But for the sake of this discussion, it doesn't really matter. Neither of those states is eternal. Either your body gets resurrected, or all of you gets resurrected at some point.

Everyone gets resurrected, everyone. The saved and the unsaved. We've already covered all of this multiple times. So then what happens to people after they are raised from the dead?
They go to one of two places. The Lake of Fire, or to be with God. There are about 4 verses that seem to say no one has eternal life... just yet.

Mark 10:30; but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luke 18:30; who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Let's go worst case here, and say no one has eternal life yet. That would reconcile with 1Tim 6:16; correct? But in the "age to come" ( after the resurrection ) the Christians at least get eternal life.
Over 40 verses in the New Testament say saved Christians will get eternal life. So maybe they don't have it yet depending on how you believe, but it doesn't matter, because either way they will get it at some point
in the future.

John 11:25; Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

So then what about the unsaved/non-believers, do they have eternal life also? Well according to verses like John 5:29; Acts 24:15; and Rev 20:12-13; even they will be resurrected.
But do they live forever? That's a little different subject than "What is Hell", but that's OK. Well first hell is temporary, the Lake of fire is permanent. At some point in the future hell
gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. ( Rev 20:14; ) So even if you take the story of Lazarus and the Rich man literally, the rich man won't stay in hades forever.

But it seems he had a conscientiousness. He was able to feel pain during this time. Whether it was body, spirit or both... He said he was in agony. He called hades a place of torment.

The Bible talks about "the second death". But does the Bible say this is annihilation anywhere? Does the Bible say you cease to exist anywhere? What happens to people who go to the second death,
also known as the Lake of Fire. ( Rev 20:14; Rev 21:8; ) Do they live forever, or do they just cease to exist?

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

This group of people will be "tormented with fire and brimstone".. in the presence of Jesus ( the Lamb ). For how long? Forever and ever... they have no rest day and night.
You can call this eternal life if you want, or you can call it eternal death. It doesn't matter, either way they are tormented with fire forever and ever. They never have any rest from the torment.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Again, we have Satan, the beast, and the false prophet...

How long will they be tormented? "forever and ever". Again, call it eternal life ( if you call this living ) or call it eternal death. Call it whatever you like, but these people will feel pain "forever and ever".

Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

How long will these people be punished? "eternal" punishment.

more verses coming, but I'm out of time this morning.

 

[Br. Bear]

Hi Br Bear,

I've written a book on this subject. I can give you a link of you'd like.

Greetings,

Yes. Either here or via PM.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

It seems that we keep having circular discussions about the same things over and over again.

The Bible uses two words, one is aion, from where we get the word "eon", and the other is "aionios", which means eternal, never ending.
Even if you go to Google translate today, open the Greek to English Tab, type in either aion, or aionios, and see what word comes back.

So you have to be careful the context of which word is being used and when.

The other thing that important in the Bible is tense. Past tense, Present tense, and Future tense. Generally, these are pretty easy to discern from the language in the verse.

There appear to be two prevailing theologies here. One group believes when you die, your spirit immediately goes up to heaven. The other group believes you just "sleep"
until the resurrection. But for the sake of this discussion, it doesn't really matter. Neither of those states is eternal. Either your body gets resurrected, or all of you gets resurrected at some point.

Everyone gets resurrected, everyone. The saved and the unsaved. We've already covered all of this multiple times. So then what happens to people after they are raised from the dead?
They go to one of two places. The Lake of Fire, or to be with God. There are about 4 verses that seem to say no one has eternal life... just yet.

Mark 10:30; but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luke 18:30; who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Let's go worst case here, and say no one has eternal life yet. That would reconcile with 1Tim 6:16; correct? But in the "age to come" ( after the resurrection ) the Christians at least get eternal life.
Over 40 verses in the New Testament say saved Christians will get eternal life. So maybe they don't have it yet depending on how you believe, but it doesn't matter, because either way they will get it at some point
in the future.

John 11:25; Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

So then what about the unsaved/non-believers, do they have eternal life also? Well according to verses like John 5:29; Acts 24:15; and Rev 20:12-13; even they will be resurrected.
But do they live forever? That's a little different subject than "What is Hell", but that's OK. Well first hell is temporary, the Lake of fire is permanent. At some point in the future hell
gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. ( Rev 20:14; ) So even if you take the story of Lazarus and the Rich man literally, the rich man won't stay in hades forever.

But it seems he had a conscientiousness. He was able to feel pain during this time. Whether it was body, spirit or both... He said he was in agony. He called hades a place of torment.

The Bible talks about "the second death". But does the Bible say this is annihilation anywhere? Does the Bible say you cease to exist anywhere? What happens to people who go to the second death,
also known as the Lake of Fire. ( Rev 20:14; Rev 21:8; ) Do they live forever, or do they just cease to exist?

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

This group of people will be "tormented with fire and brimstone".. in the presence of Jesus ( the Lamb ). For how long? Forever and ever... they have no rest day and night.
You can call this eternal life if you want, or you can call it eternal death. It doesn't matter, either way they are tormented with fire forever and ever. They never have any rest from the torment.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Again, we have Satan, the beast, and the false prophet...

How long will they be tormented? "forever and ever". Again, call it eternal life ( if you call this living ) or call it eternal death. Call it whatever you like, but these people will feel pain "forever and ever".

Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

How long will these people be punished? "eternal" punishment.

more verses coming, but I'm out of time this morning.

But B-A-C, this is based on the word aion. Aion and aionios are the same word. One is the noun and the other is the adjective. It's like spirit and spiritual. Aion is the noun aionios is the adjective. The meaning is the same.

Regarding the definition, who is more likely to be correct, modern theologians or Jesus and the apostles? I think we can agree that it's Jesus and the apostles. They say the aion ends. If it ends it's not eternal. This clearly shows that modern theologians have gotten this wrong. It shouldn't a hard concept to swallow. I mean just look at all of the denominations out there. A lot of theologians have gotten a lot of stuff wrong. If they hadn't there'd be one denomination. All Christians have biases, even theologians.

Look up an ancient Hebrew site and look at the word olam, the Hebrew equivalent of aion. You'll see it doesn't mean eternity. This is the idea that aion is conveying.

As I said before, this doctrine exists because people hold to the idea of Platonic Dualism. The idea that man is an immaterial being in a temporary body. That's why they refuse to allow the second death to be simply that, a second death. Why don't we consider changing our doctrine instead of changing Scripture?

There's nothing in Scripture that says man is a spirit. The only spirit we see in man is that God, His breath of life. It's the presupposition that man is an immaterial being that causes all of this confusion. God Himself told Adam that he is flesh. God said His spirit would not always strive with man as man is flesh. He didn't say man has flesh. He said man is flesh. If man is flesh, then he isn't spirit. God is spirit. Man is flesh. Once we accept this concept many of the misunderstandings in Scripture go away.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings,

Yes. Either here or via PM.


Bless you ....><>

Sure, here's the link.

Some food for thought for my Christian friends. We all know that the Bible says that God is Love. The point is that it says He "is" love. He's the very definition of it. However, many Christians struggle with the idea that God torments the wicked for all of eternity in hell. How does one reconcile a God who "is" love with the idea of Eternal Conscious Torment in hell? What if that actually wasn't the case? What if Eternal Conscious Torment isn't what the Bible actually teaches? Wouldn't it be great to witness to the lost and not have to try to explain the concept of eternal torment in hell? Well, you can. My work below looks at this subject extensively and I believe conclusively puts an end to the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment. We serve a God of love.

Eternal Conscious Torment (Hell No)

https://www.asuswebstorage.com/navigate/s/58FC5D9B39B54718B18F6A505194FC2E4