What Is HELL ?

[KingJ]

the example of little person who is not responsible for their sin until the age of accountability.

I don't think I said little person. I agree with an age of accountability.

Work woth a 21 year old candy thief or a 21 year old back biter. The point is to highlight a venial sinner over a mortal sinner.

 

[B-A-C]

Jas 2:9; But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10; For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
Jas 2:11; For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

There is no such thing as a little white lie, or a very small sin. All sin is sin. If you've committed any sin at all, you're just as guilty as if you committed all the sins.

The analogy here, is someone made you brownies. Instead of putting a full cup of poop in your brownies, they only put 2 tablespoons. Would you eat the brownies?
To God, there is no difference. A "little" sin, is just as filthy and repulsive to Him as many "large" sins.

I think people have forgotten how Holy God Is. I think they have forgotten how much He hates sin.

 

[B-A-C]

In a way this whole discussion is pointless. No one has to go to hell.
If you are worrying about burning in hell or the lake of fire, for any length of time at all. ( I suspect even 5 minutes will be much more than anyone wants to endure ).

GET SAVED!!! REPENT!!! FIND JESUS!!!

Then you don't have to worry about it. God made a way for mankind to be saved. "ALL" of mankind. Those who choose not to be, are making their own choice.
It's not our place to worry about what God does with the unsaved. It's not our job to judge God.

There are some verses that suggest we won't remember some things in our past. Perhaps the un-saved people we knew will be one of these things.

 

[KingJ]

Jas 2:9; But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10; For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
Jas 2:11; For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

There is no such thing as a little white lie, or a very small sin. All sin is sin. If you've committed any sin at all, you're just as guilty as if you committed all the sins.

The analogy here, is someone made you brownies. Instead of putting a full cup of poop in your brownies, they only put 2 tablespoons. Would you eat the brownies?
To God, there is no difference. A "little" sin, is just as filthy and repulsive to Him as many "large" sins.

I think people have forgotten how Holy God Is. I think they have forgotten how much He hates sin.

I think people cherry pick scripture and are incapable of reading other peoples replies to them.

I think I have told you on a hundred occasions now that both statements are true. 1. Sin is sin, correct. 2. Sin has degrees, correct.

1. Read Matt 5:28 with Matt 5:32. Adultery = sin, but only actual adultery = divorce.
2. Read 1 Cor 5:1 and note that Paul addresses the congregation to discuss and isolate a 'brother so called' guilty of sex with his mother. Now please try to understand that Paul did not pause a sermon to address the sin of stealing candy from the candy store. ''It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.''
3. Leviticus mentions God's laws, degrees of punishment according to sins and we know from Numb 23:19 that He does not change.
4. in 1 Cor 6:1-9 Paul rebukes Christians who cannot judge matters better then the unsaved.
5. Paul says in Rom 7:15 that he still sins, he was not referring to his prior sin of murdering Christians was he?

If a Christian cannot tell the difference in intent between a venial and mortal sin, they must ask doctors to remove their brain, they don't need it.

Mortal sin shows a greater intent for a love of what is evil, duh???? Closer to being 'sold out to sin'. Beyond hope. Trampling Jesus underfoot.

 

[Butch5]

Those who teach torture as described in this thread Discussion on Torture need to be terrified of misrepresentation of God, we agree on that.

Annihilationism = 2/10 'bad' in that it raises the eyebrow on God's justness and righteousness.
Torture in hell = 11/10 'bad' as it implies God sit atop a list of the most evil beings to ever exist.




To clarify my belief, which I can support with scripture. I believe one who is ''sold out to a love of what is evil / can never truly repent' goes to eternal hell. There will be levels of suffering in hell according to the actual sins you are guilty of. Just as in heaven, there will be levels, but you are there as your repentance of sins carries weight with God.

God will punish the devil with fire in front of the host of angels according to Revelations, this because He knows all will agree with this punishment for the devil. Nobody will say ''oh he was only a candy thief who never wanted to return the candy''. If that were the case, everyone in heaven would object. Please try understand that.



I address 'death in post #211



Separation can be seen as a 'punishment' but its not really. Its their choice to not repent. God creates a home for the wicked. That a place where wicked are is terrible is unavoidable. God does thus not beat around the bush in calling it a place of eternal torment.

I believe there are so many intricacies to hell that many do not grasp because they do not properly meditate on God and the topic. A lot like earth which has a lot more going on then merely the four curses God verbalized to Adam and Eve.



If the candy thief never wants to return the candy, you think such a person will ever live with those who do truly repent of their sins? Of course not.

This however does not then equate to the candy thief being placed with unrepentant rapists or receiving lethal injection. Imagine that.

Paul ''REBUKES'' Christians who cannot judge matters better then the unsaved in 1 Cor 6:1-9. Now we assume God will be first on that list? That's hilarious.



As I have stated in an earlier post, you have created the elephant in the room. The question only exists if you believe death = annihilation.



?

There are a few scriptures that state we are body, soul and spirit.

1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



You are too caught up in this. You need to take a step back and think more logically.

Accept the fact that @BUTCH would never ever, in a centillion years place an unrepentant candy thief with unrepentant serial rapists, let alone give them the lethal injection.

God '''IS'''' 10000000000% Just. That is a fact. That is a known part of the equation. You cannot remove that from your 'X'. X being a vastly 'unknown' future event.

I know you think you can support your beliefs from Scripture. However, the Calvinist and the Arminian both think that also and they both have contradictory beliefs. People try to make the Bible say a lot if things it doesn't say.

I've stated several times that you guys are arguing from the perspective of Platonic Dualism. That's seen here in this post. You've simply assumed that people living on after death. You, nor anyone else has established this teaching in Scripture. To quote the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and claim it's literal doesn't establish the claim. That's simply an interpretation. So, premise one, that man lives on after death, a basis of your argument, has not been established.

You also spoke of people going to Heaven. There is not a single passage of Scrioture that teaches that people go to Heaven when they die. That's another erroneous premise. You also said that Hell is eternal, another erroneous premise.

Your position is based on Platonic Daulism and you're trying to make that position fit with Scripture. This is the problem. In doing so, you're forced to reject a lot of Scripture. You're also forced to redefine Scripture.

Before we can ever get anywhere we need to establish your premises. Because I disagree with each one I mentioned.

I also said there is nothing in Scripture that states man "is" a spirit. You replied,

"There are a few scriptures that state we are body, soul and spirit.

1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

We've gone over this time and again. I don't know if English is your first language. This is basic English. The word "your" denotes possession not person. I don't know why people don't seem to get this. The word "you" denotes person. Yes, everyone has a spirit or breath, it is the breath of life. That doesn't mean you are a breath of life. It means you have one. If I say, your truck, I'm not saying you are a truck. I'm saying you possess a truck.

Whenever I have this discussion about people not being a spirit, people post these same verses. It makes me wonder if they understand basic English. If not how can they grasp the more complex issues in Scripture?

To prove that man is a spirit, one must show Scripture that is being spoke to man that says "you" are spirit, or man is spirit. That's not found in Scripture. What we do find is the opposite. Man "IS" dust and flesh

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread

Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

See, for dust you are. He didn't say for spirit your are. He said for dust you are. Man is dust. Man is flesh. You won't find Scripture that says, for spirit you are.

The word "you" denotes person. "YOU" Adam "ARE" dust. The word "are" is a system of being verb. It describes thr state if something. In this case, Adam. He is dust.

Also, I don't see how you claim that death is unjust and then claim that eternal punishment for a crime is just. Someone steals a candy bar and they suffer some level of punishment ongoing for eternity. How is that just? Eternal torment for a 30 sec crime? How do you see that as more just than death. At least in death they don't suffer.

I could gone for quite a while here. Let's just see if we can establish your 3 premises and take it from there.

 

[KingJ]

In a way this whole discussion is pointless. No one has to go to hell.

It's not. If you teach a torturous hell you INCRIMINATE God.

If you are worrying about burning in hell or the lake of fire, for any length of time at all. ( I suspect even 5 minutes will be much more than anyone wants to endure ).

GET SAVED!!! REPENT!!! FIND JESUS!!!

Then you don't have to worry about it. God made a way for mankind to be saved. "ALL" of mankind. Those who choose not to be, are making their own choice.
It's not our place to worry about what God does with the unsaved. It's not our job to judge God.

There are some verses that suggest we won't remember some things in our past. Perhaps the un-saved people we knew will be one of these things.

God removing our memories. Imagine that. That way He can continue to be evil to our lost '''''loved''''' ones?

Who wants to BE SAVED AND GO TO HEAVEN to be with a God that will sit atop a list of the most evil beings to ever live?

You have a terrible idea of God in the future BAC. It is beyond me how someone like you who knows God in the current and His love in the past on the cross and in scripture, can teach He is a different God, an evil God in the future. Imagine that.

 

[KingJ]

I know you think you can support your beliefs from Scripture. However, the Calvinist and the Arminian both think that also and they both have contradictory beliefs. People try to make the Bible say a lot if things it doesn't say.

I've stated several times that you guys are arguing from the perspective of Platonic Dualism. That's seen here in this post. You've simply assumed that people living on after death. You, nor anyone else has established this teaching in Scripture. To quote the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and claim it's literal doesn't establish the claim. That's simply an interpretation. So, premise one, that man lives on after death, a basis of your argument, has not been established.

You also spoke of people going to Heaven. There is not a single passage of Scrioture that teaches that people go to Heaven when they die. That's another erroneous premise. You also said that Hell is eternal, another erroneous premise.

Your position is based on Platonic Daulism and you're trying to make that position fit with Scripture. This is the problem. In doing so, you're forced to reject a lot of Scripture. You're also forced to redefine Scripture.

Before we can ever get anywhere we need to establish your premises. Because I disagree with each one I mentioned.

I also said there is nothing in Scripture that states man "is" a spirit. You replied,

"There are a few scriptures that state we are body, soul and spirit.

1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

We've gone over this time and again. I don't know if English is your first language. This is basic English. The word "your" denotes possession not person. I don't know why people don't seem to get this. The word "you" denotes person. Yes, everyone has a spirit or breath, it is the breath of life. That doesn't mean you are a breath of life. It means you have one. If I say, your truck, I'm not saying you are a truck. I'm saying you possess a truck.

Whenever I have this discussion about people not being a spirit, people post these same verses. It makes me wonder if they understand basic English. If not how can they grasp the more complex issues in Scripture?

To prove that man is a spirit, one must show Scripture that is being spoke to man that says "you" are spirit, or man is spirit. That's not found in Scripture. What we do find is the opposite. Man "IS" dust and flesh

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread

Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

See, for dust you are. He didn't say for spirit your are. He said for dust you are. Man is dust. Man is flesh. You won't find Scripture that says, for spirit you are.

The word "you" denotes person. "YOU" Adam "ARE" dust. The word "are" is a system of being verb. It describes thr state if something. In this case, Adam. He is dust.

Also, I don't see how you claim that death is unjust and then claim that eternal punishment for a crime is just. Someone steals a candy bar and they suffer some level of punishment ongoing for eternity. How is that just? Eternal torment for a 30 sec crime? How do you see that as more just than death. At least in death they don't suffer.

I could gone for quite a while here. Let's just see if we can establish your 3 premises and take it from there.

Butch, you just keep dodging. English my first language? You can not even grasp Gen 3:22 or what the words 'righteous' 'just' and 'good' mean. You want to lecture on 'death' and 'eternal', disagreeing with every current translation of scripture?

I am going to ask for the absolutely last time.

Forget scripture for now.

1. Does @BUTCH think lethal injection for all criminals is just, YES or NO?

2. Does @BUTCH believe that God is just? YES or NO?

3. Does @BUTCH believe the bible is correctly translated by those who penned that God is just? YES or NO?

4. Does @BUTCH believe 1 Pet 4:18 that teaches that there are righteous barely saved? YES or NO?

God's justice and righteousness are the undisputable facts in the equation on a vastly unknown future event. You need to come to the reality of the fact that 90% of Christians disagree with you and then grasp that absolutely NOBODY called a Christian should come close to teaching or insinuating that God is unjust. As Job says, it should be UNTHINKABLE. (@B-A-C )

Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

 

[Butch5]

In a way this whole discussion is pointless. No one has to go to hell.
If you are worrying about burning in hell or the lake of fire, for any length of time at all. ( I suspect even 5 minutes will be much more than anyone wants to endure ).

GET SAVED!!! REPENT!!! FIND JESUS!!!

Then you don't have to worry about it. God made a way for mankind to be saved. "ALL" of mankind. Those who choose not to be, are making their own choice.
It's not our place to worry about what God does with the unsaved. It's not our job to judge God.

There are some verses that suggest we won't remember some things in our past. Perhaps the un-saved people we knew will be one of these things.

HI B-A-C,

The reason I believe this discussion is important is because for centuries Christians have used it to "scare" people into getting save. It was used on me. I personally know people who have rejected God and Christianity over this very doctrine. They can't bring themselves to love a God who would torture people.

Here's the thing, if the doctrine is true, then oh well it's on the people who reject God and Christianity. However, if the doctrine is not true, then it's on the Christians who presented it. Imagine you or I go out and tell people, if they don't become a Christian they'll burn forever. Now imagine those people reject the message because they won't worship a God who tortures people. Now imagine theyvgo to their death holding that position. Who's fault would it be that that person is lost forever? The fault would be me or you. Had we not presented a false doctrine that misrepresented God they may have become one of the best Christians ever. Maybe they would have been another Bill Graham. That's why I debate this topic. Hopefully Chridtians will see that God isn't like that.

 

[B-A-C]

God removing our memories. Imagine that. That way He can continue to be evil to our lost '''''loved'''' ones?

I did say "perhaps". Perhaps we will remember these things, I honestly don't know.

Eccl 1:11; There is no remembrance of earlier things; And also of the later things which will occur, There will be for them no remembrance Among those who will come later still.

Isa 65:17; "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Psa 34:16; The face of the LORD is against evildoers, To cut off the memory of them from the earth.

 

[Butch5]

Butch, you just keep dodging. English my first language? You can not even grasp Gen 3:22 or what the words 'righteous' 'just' and 'good' mean. You want to lecture on 'death' and 'eternal', disagreeing with every current translation of scripture?

I am going to ask for the absolutely last time.

Forget scripture for now.

1. Does @BUTCH think lethal injection for all criminals is just, YES or NO?

2. Does @BUTCH believe that God is just? YES or NO?

3. Does @BUTCH believe the bible is correctly translated by those who penned that God is just? YES or NO?

4. Does @BUTCH believe 1 Pet 4:18 that teaches that there are righteous barely saved? YES or NO?

God's justice and righteousness are the undisputable facts in the equation on a vastly unknown future event. You need to come to the reality of the fact that 90% of Christians disagree with you and then grasp that absolutely NOBODY called a Christian should come close to teaching or insinuating that God is unjust. As Job says, it should be UNTHINKABLE. (@B-A-C )

Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

You didn't establish any of the premises of you argument. Until you can do so the rest of this is moot.

 

[B-A-C]

for centuries Christians have used it to "scare" people into getting save. It was used on me.

I don't think there is anything wrong with this. Jesus was the original fire and brimstone preacher. I don't think God cares how or why you got saved, only that you "ARE" saved.

Matt 5:22; "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29; "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30; "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28; "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9; "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45; "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47; "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5; "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Matt 11:23; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 16:18; "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

 

[Butch5]

I did say "perhaps". Perhaps we will remember these things, I honestly don't know.

Eccl 1:11; There is no remembrance of earlier things; And also of the later things which will occur, There will be for them no remembrance Among those who will come later still.

Isa 65:17; "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Psa 34:16; The face of the LORD is against evildoers, To cut off the memory of them from the earth.

B-A-C I have to commend you. I have seen that you do consider things and look at the scriptures that are presented against a position may hold. That my friend is how we get to the truth!. My hats off to you!

 

[KingJ]

You didn't establish any of the premises of you argument. Until you can do so the rest of this is moot.

You are evasive and too proud to deal with the fact that you are misrepresenting God as unjust. Do you even care?

I want you to know that every person on this planet is 100% happy with the fact that @BUTCH is NOT a judge!

 

[KingJ]

I did say "perhaps". Perhaps we will remember these things, I honestly don't know.

Eccl 1:11; There is no remembrance of earlier things; And also of the later things which will occur, There will be for them no remembrance Among those who will come later still.

Isa 65:17; "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Psa 34:16; The face of the LORD is against evildoers, To cut off the memory of them from the earth.

These passages are cherry picked. We have discussed this before. Feel free to open a thread if you want to push this.

That you even suggest it, it is shocking.

 

[Butch5]

You are evasive and too proud to deal with the fact that you are misrepresenting God as unjust. Do you even care?

No, my friend. I've tried repeatedly to point out that you are arguing from a false premise. You refuse to hear what I've said.

If I made a claim and said, 2+2=5. It wouldn't matter how many examples I gave. It wouldn't matter how many experts I quoted, no one would accept "any" argument I made based on that claim unless I could prove beyond doubt that 2+2=5. If I can't prove it anything I say is moot. This is what you're doing.

I've asked repeatedly, where do the wicked get eternal life? You've not answered the question once. Unless you prove that the wicked get eternal life, it doesn't matter how many degrees of punishment you believe there are in hell. It doesn't matter if some are punished to a greater or lesser degree, because if they don't have eternal life your whole rgument is moot. For mme to sit and answer questions based on a false premise does nothing to further the conversation. You might as well aaskme if sasquatch has long or short hair or if it's light or dark. It doesn't matter. Sasquatch doesn't exist . Assuming sasquatch exists is the false premise.

 

[Butch5]

I don't think there is anything wrong with this. Jesus was the original fire and brimstone preacher. I don't think God cares how or why you got saved, only that you "ARE" saved.

Matt 5:22; "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29; "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30; "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28; "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9; "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45; "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47; "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5; "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Matt 11:23; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 16:18; "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

My point is that it's not eternal .

It's one thing to say, if you sin you'll be punished and cremated. It's another to say you'll be kept alive for the sole purpose of tormenting you for all of eternity.

Here's the thing. Everyone sins and everyone dies. God has given man a second chance. He can be saved. He can get second chance at life, this time it doesn't end. If someone doesn't want that then their option is death. But, when we tell them that God will torture them for eternity we've gone too far. He never said that.

 

[KingJ]

I did say "perhaps". Perhaps we will remember these things, I honestly don't know.

Eccl 1:11; There is no remembrance of earlier things; And also of the later things which will occur, There will be for them no remembrance Among those who will come later still.

Isa 65:17; "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Psa 34:16; The face of the LORD is against evildoers, To cut off the memory of them from the earth.

1. Scripture says God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

A. Is it ''right'' to remove from the wicked their memories of their loved ones? Yes or No?
B. Is it ''right'' to remove from those ''barely'' saved 1 Pet 4:18, the memories of their loved ones who did not make it? Yes or No?
C. Let's says two people are married. ''Lukewarm'' Christians. One barely makes it into heaven. The other lands up in hell and never committed a mortal sin. Is it right to eternally torture the one who barely didn't make it whilst offering the other who 'just' made it, eternal bliss? Yes or No?

2. Eccl 1:11 - If you read the whole chapter, you will see that the context is not a 'prophecy of the future'. It is just a random fact. People forget.

3. Isa 65:17 - Isa 65:16 gives context for verse 17. Verse 16 specifies 'past troubles'. Like if you were raped. You could forget that. Specific to ''troubles''.

4. Psa 34:16 - There are different translations here. Some state '' to blot out their name from the earth''. A reference to having your name removed from the book of life. The KJV states 'remembrance'. The context if you read verse 15 to 17 is specifically to evildoers making people 'cry' verse 15, causing 'troubles' verse 17. A lot like Isa 65:16.

 

[Bill Taylor]

I don't think I said little person. I agree with an age of accountability.

Work woth a 21 year old candy thief or a 21 year old back biter. The point is to highlight a venial sinner over a mortal sinner.

I am sorry but sin is sin. Disobedience is disobedience and son, all sin, is against the Father and His Law. There are no classes of sin except in some Catholic teaching and that is based on the traditions of man.

 

[KingJ]

No, my friend. I've tried repeatedly to point out that you are arguing from a false premise. You refuse to hear what I've said.

If I made a claim and said, 2+2=5. It wouldn't matter how many examples I gave. It wouldn't matter how many experts I quoted, no one would accept "any" argument I made based on that claim unless I could prove beyond doubt that 2+2=5. If I can't prove it anything I say is moot. This is what you're doing.

Butch, you are not keeping up and funny you think I am not.

You argue that scripture says 1. God is just and says 2. He will annihilate IE 1+2=3. Well, this is where you are stuck.

''2'' is a vastly UNKNOWN future event that 95% of Christians DISAGREE with you on. So to do 99.99% of the people on this planet with a working brain that can grasp that ''just'' does not equal ''annihilate''.

The KNOWN facts in the equation are 1. God is just Job 34:12, 2. God has created a place called the lake of fire, 3. God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, 4. God is light with no darkness 1 John 1:5.

1+2+3+4+5 = eternal separation in a as nice a place as possible, which is not so nice... as it doesn't matter how nice a place is if there are evil people there.

Not X + 1 = annihilation.

You making the same mistake as those who teach eternal torture. Both pushing a vastly unknown future event that incriminates God as fact because you read '''death'' and they read '''fire'' .

You all fail terribly on this topic. Plese read this verse slowly.

Psalm 145:17 God .........................is.....................righteous...................in...................ALLLLLL.....................His ways.

I've asked repeatedly, where do the wicked get eternal life?

I have repeatedly told you that you ask this because you believe 'death is death' and 'life is living'. 95% of all Christians disagree with you on this.

Unless you prove that the wicked get eternal life, it doesn't matter how many degrees of punishment you believe there are in hell. It doesn't matter if some are punished to a greater or lesser degree,

Of course it does, because if God is not just, who wants eternal life with Him?

because if they don't have eternal life your whole rgument is moot. For mme to sit and answer questions based on a false premise does nothing to further the conversation. You might as well aaskme if sasquatch has long or short hair or if it's light or dark. It doesn't matter. Sasquatch doesn't exist . Assuming sasquatch exists is the false premise.

The topic changed a bit. You did not answer my Yes or No questions. You are just evasive and placing your logical brain in shutdown mode when you discuss. Christians must never do that.

 

[KingJ]

I am sorry but sin is sin. Disobedience is disobedience and son, all sin, is against the Father and His Law. There are no classes of sin except in some Catholic teaching and that is based on the traditions of man.

Can you explain these to me then?

1. Read Matt 5:28 with Matt 5:32. Adultery = sin, but only actual adultery = divorce.

2. Read 1 Cor 5:1 and note that Paul addresses the congregation to discuss and isolate a 'brother so called' guilty of sex with fathers wife. Now please try to understand that Paul did not pause a sermon to address the sin of stealing candy from the candy store. 1 Cor 5:1 ''It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.''

3. Leviticus mentions God's laws, degrees of punishment according to sins and we know from Numb 23:19 that He does not change.

4. in 1 Cor 6:1-9 Paul rebukes Christians who cannot judge matters better then the unsaved.

5. Paul says in Rom 7:15 that he still sins, he was not referring to his prior sin of murdering Christians was he?

Sorry Bill, but Catholics have venial and mortal sins correct.