What Is HELL ?

[Curtis]

Before you can claim these are living disembodied beings you have to prove that that is possible.

The Apostle Paul was caught up unto the third Heaven without dying first.
The Apostle John caught up into Heaven and saw Jesus in his supernatural body.
Elijah taken up in a chariot of fire into Heaven without dying.

None of these were in their physical bodies as "flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God."

 

[Butch5]

You have been shown time after time that each of us has a body, soul, and spirit. You have been shown the Spirit of God confirms with our spirit that we are His.

But yet you go through this series of explanations and private interpretations to the contrary.

I'm not going to argue with you, you have your own mindset on argument.

I've been shown some things that don't make sense. Like the word "our" is supposed to denote person. I've shown you that the word "our" is a possessive. That wasn't my interpretation. You can find it in any dictionary. If you had posted something saying our car, am I to understand that you are a car? Obviously not. So why would I understand our spirit to mean I'm a spirit?

Let me ask a question. What more important than God's word?

 

[Butch5]

The Apostle Paul was caught up unto the third Heaven without dying first.
The Apostle John caught up into Heaven and saw Jesus in his supernatural body.
Elijah taken up in a chariot of fire into Heaven without dying.

None of these were in their physical bodies as "flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God."

Paul and John, had a vision. Elijah went into the sky, not Heaven. Later on we find that Elijah wrote a letter to a king.

To claim they weren't in their bodies is speculation.

They haven't inherited the Kingdom yet.

 

[Charlie24]

I've been shown some things that don't make sense. Like the word "our" is supposed to denote person. I've shown you that the word "our" is a possessive. That wasn't my interpretation. You can find it in any dictionary. If you had posted something saying our car, am I to understand that you are a car? Obviously not. So why would I understand our spirit to mean I'm a spirit?

Let me ask a question. What more important than God's word?

How hard is it to understand that God's Spirit confirms with OUR spirit that we are the children of God.

Seriously, what part of that can a person not understand?

 

[Butch5]

How hard is it to understand that God's Spirit confirms with OUR spirit that we are the children of God.

Seriously, what part of that can a person not understand?

It's easy you understand. What's hard to understand is how someone reads that and concludes that man is a spirit.

 

[Charlie24]

It's easy you understand. What's hard to understand is how someone reads that and concludes that man is a spirit.

I think you have been told several times that man is body, spirit, and soul.

But look, you can rebel against the obvious in Scripture and lose any credibility you may have had.

From reading your posts in the past that is no problem for you.

 

[Butch5]

I think you have been told several times that man is body, spirit, and soul.

But look, you can rebel against the obvious in Scripture and lose any credibility you may have had.

From reading your posts in the past that is no problem for you.

I've been told that. That doesn't make it so.

If you look at that passage you'll see that Paul says,

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

Firstly, notice Paul uses whole and wholly. Clearly he's denoting the whole person. Also notice the word "your". It's the second person plural possessive. The same thing that applies to "our" (first person plural possessive) applies to "your." The word your denotes possession, not person. The word "you" denotes person. We have an example of that.



By the sweat of your brow you will eat food until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you will return.”

Biblical Studies Press. 2019. The NET Bible. Second Edition. Denmark: Thomas Nelson.

God said to Adam, 'you are dust.' He didn't say you are a spirit living in a flesh body. He said, 'you are dust.' Man is dust, not a spirit. The "you" denotes person.

 

[Charlie24]

I've been told that. That doesn't make it so.

If you look at that passage you'll see that Paul says,

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

Firstly, notice Paul uses whole and wholly. Clearly he's denoting the whole person. Also notice the word "your". It's the second person plural possessive. The same thing that applies to "our" (first person plural possessive) applies to "your." The word your denotes possession, not person. The word "you" denotes person. We have an example of that.



By the sweat of your brow you will eat food until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you will return.”

Biblical Studies Press. 2019. The NET Bible. Second Edition. Denmark: Thomas Nelson.

God said to Adam, 'you are dust.' He didn't say you are a spirit living in a flesh body. He said, 'you are dust.' Man is dust, not a spirit. The "you" denotes person.

I watched a movie one time where the enemy turned and ran, but one guy kept shooting, so the other guy pushed his weapon aside.

He asked, why did you do that? He said, if you can't see or know why, then I can't explain it.

 

[Butch5]

I watched a movie one time where the enemy turned and ran, but one guy kept shooting, so the other guy pushed his weapon aside.

He asked, why did you do that? He said, if you can't see or know why, then I can't explain it.

It's there. It's crystal clear. Man is dust, not spirit.

 

[Charlie24]

It's there. It's crystal clear. Man is dust, not spirit.

Ok, that's fine.

There are many things in Scripture that I don't understand, I can't see it, I can't touch it.

I take from context what I can understand and leave the rest to God.

I can see the body, spirit, and soul of man in the context of Scripture In several different ways.

No one can tell me that man is merely the dust of earth, although that is a part of man.

 

[Butch5]

Ok, that's fine.

There are many things in Scripture that I don't understand, I can't see it, I can't touch it.

I take from context what I can understand and leave the rest to God.

I can see the body, spirit, and soul of man in the context of Scripture In several different ways.

No one can tell me that man is merely the dust of earth, although that is a part of man.

Not even God?

 

[Curtis]

Paul and John, had a vision. Elijah went into the sky, not Heaven. Later on we find that Elijah wrote a letter to a king.

To claim they weren't in their bodies is speculation.

They haven't inherited the Kingdom yet.

The Apostle Paul said.......

2Co 12:2 I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know—only God knows.
2Co 12:3 Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know
2Co 12:4 that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell. (NLT)

The Apostle John said......

Rev 4:1 Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me like a trumpet blast. The voice said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.”
Rev 4:2 And instantly I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it. (NLT)

 

[Butch5]

The Apostle Paul said.......

2Co 12:2 I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know—only God knows.
2Co 12:3 Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know
2Co 12:4 that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell. (NLT)

The Apostle John said......

Rev 4:1 Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me like a trumpet blast. The voice said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.”
Rev 4:2 And instantly I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it. (NLT)

You forgot verse 1

12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not ilawful for a man to utter.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Co 12.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 1:9–11.

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 : and, behold, fa throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
And immediately I was in the spirit
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 4.

How do we know they didn't go to Heaven? John told us so.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 3:12–13.

John said, no man has ascended up to Heaven.

 

[KingJ]

You just side steeped the question. You guys keep doing that. This topic has nothing to do with justice, that's a red herring. It has everything to do with whether or not a man can possibly suffer eternal torment.

In order to suffer eternal torment one must be able to live eternally. The Bible tells us that God is the source of all life. Thus, no one lives apart from God giving them life. So, I'll ask yet again, where is the unbeliever promised eternal life?

You are side stepping. One thing at a time Butch.

1. Is it just to give a candy thief the same punishment as a murderer?

2. Is God just?

Yes or no answer please.

 

[Butch5]

You are side stepping. One thing at a time Butch.

1. Is it just to give a candy thief the same punishment as a murderer?

2. Is God just?

Yes or no answer please.

The whole question is side stepping. All this does is take the conversation into the weeds. I have a buddy who does this. It just distracts from the issue at hand.

God said, 'the soul that sins shall die.'
It seems to me that all sin requires death.

Let's flip it around. Is God just if both die for their sins?

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings @Butch5

how are you Brother?

May I take a moment to say, it (things presented and submitted on this thread) has been repeated by both 'sides' repeatedly and we are not advancing much, if any?

Can i rewind to what another member made mention of going back a few posts or so?

In a nutshell (so to speak) is God eternal? [I am not refuting what you have patiently been trying to share]

Is there Bible {verses, etc} that states eternal God and/or that God is eternal? [again, not disputing about plato and wobbly understanding about anything] If so, how do we reconcile an age of eternal God, if that makes sense.

Really would appreciate your thoughts on this.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

may I remind us all that the thread is somehow about the OP and we might try to steer in that direction.

We can open new threads to continue or repeat the other topics raised so far in this multi page thread?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Charlie24]

John said, no man has ascended up to Heaven.

Clearly we read in Scripture that Elijah was taken to heaven without dying. But Christ said that no man has ascended into heaven.

This is an apparent contradiction. There are only 2 possibilities.

1) The Scripture has lied to us.
2) We are not understanding what Christ meant by "no man has ascended into heaven."

So what do we do? We go to the context to see what Christ meant.

Christ is having a conversation with Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin, the ruling body of Israel. He is a great teacher.

Christ is explaining salvation, "you must be born-again" and Nicodemus has no concept of what Christ is saying.

Christ tells Nicodemus, you are a teacher of Israel and you don't understand these things.

Then Christ gives us the key to unlock what we perceive as a contradiction.

"If I have told you of earthy things and you don't believe, how can you believe if I tell you of heavenly things."

Nicodemus had taken salvation from the Law of Moses in completely the wrong way. He is telling Nicodemus that you must first understand who I am and why I'm here to understand the salvation of my Father. Christ has now brought the salvation of the Father right before their faces and they didn't know it.

Then Christ says, "no man has ascended into heaven, but He (Christ) who came down from heaven."

Christ is telling Nicodemus that no man has ever been to heaven and came back to explain the salvation of the Father first hand (the heavenly things). Only He (Christ) has been in heaven with the Father and knows His plan.

 

[Butch5]

Clearly we read in Scripture that Elijah was taken to heaven without dying. But Christ said that no man has ascended into heaven.

This is an apparent contradiction. There are only 2 possibilities.

1) The Scripture has lied to us.
2) We are not understanding what Christ meant by "no man has ascended into heaven."

So what do we do? We go to the context to see what Christ meant.

Christ is having a conversation with Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin, the ruling body of Israel. He is a great teacher.

Christ is explaining salvation, "you must be born-again" and Nicodemus has no concept of what Christ is saying.

Christ tells Nicodemus, you are a teacher of Israel and you don't understand these things.

Then Christ gives us the key to unlock what we perceive as a contradiction.

"If I have told you of earthy things and you don't believe, how can you believe if I tell you of heavenly things."

Nicodemus had taken salvation from the Law of Moses in completely the wrong way. He is telling Nicodemus that you must first understand who I am and why I'm here to understand the salvation of my Father. Christ has now brought the salvation of the Father right before their faces and they didn't know it.

Then Christ says, "no man has ascended into heaven, but He (Christ) who came down from heaven."

Christ is telling Nicodemus that no man has ever been to heaven and came back to explain the salvation of the Father first hand (the heavenly things). Only He (Christ) has been in heaven with the Father and knows His plan.

They're John's comments. Notice he says, 'who is in Heaven." Jesus wasn't both in Heaven and standing before Nicodemus at the same time. John said no on has gone into Heaven but the one who came down.

There's no contraction because Elijah didn't go to Heaven.

The events in this passage are some 15 years after Elijah was taken up.

And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah, But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a *******, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father’s house, which were better than thyself:

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

Elijah was translated, just like Philip was when with the eunuch. So was Enoch.

 

[Charlie24]

They're John's comments. Notice he says, 'who is in Heaven." Jesus wasn't both in Heaven and standing before Nicodemus at the same time. John said no on has gone into Heaven but the one who came down.

There's no contraction because Elijah didn't go to Heaven.

The events in this passage are some 15 years after Elijah was taken up.

And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah, But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a *******, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father’s house, which were better than thyself:

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

Elijah was translated, just like Philip was when with the eunuch. So was Enoch.

"Who is in heaven" is translated from the Greek, "who is from heaven."