What is Sin & is it OK to be Sin Free?

[Lanolin]

unintentional sin is the word I think that has been missing from this discussion.

Killing someone is a sin, but what about if you do it in a accident? seems people here are suggesting this type of thing could not happen because they are perfect and do not sin???

What if you ignore someone who comes to you for help because you are so busy doing something else? have you loved that person like yourself? yet you did not do it on-purpose.

I think the list of unintentional sin is long and just goes to show us we need a savior in Christ, the closer I get to Christ the more I see how badly I need him. Thank you Jesus !!

I dont think people here are saying that dave M. God can see your heart and will cleanse it of anything youve done unintentionally and will keep you from this if you abide in Him.

God can see who is murderous and who may have done manslaughter cos He can see the intents and purposes of the heart and will judge righteously.

Ignoring someone...even Jesus could not get to everyone who asked for help when he was here on earth in the flesh he could only do what His Father called him to do. But by his spirit he now can. This is why christians pray for others when we cant help them out cos we may be busy doing something else we cant physically be everywhere at once. Yes make the time to pray for others even Jesus understood that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak...as we grow in Christ our flesh wont trouble us we can keep going on Gods strength,

 

[At Peace]

Hi Peace.
I partially agree. We can 'say' we have no sin as God does not see our sin when He looks at us. He sees us covered by the blood of Jesus. But, we still do things that displease God. Its called free will and we will always have it.

If we are covered by Jesus' blood, we are sanctified, set apart, atoned for, and consecrated.
No sinner can make that claim, as they are unholy, unset apart, need further atonement, and are in no wise consecrated.
God is not blind to rebellion.
I use my free-will to remain obedient to God.

This is a moot point to argue as you cannot tell me you do not sin.

Au contraire.
My "turn from", (repentance), sin was real.
I do not commit sin.

In the context He meant, no. Otherwise He would have said ''thanks, I know I am''.

So you think Jesus is admitting to "ungoodness"?
Frankly, I think He was laying the groundwork for His identification as the Word made flesh.
The Word was with God and was God.

Yes, we are good. Even the unsaved can be good. The devil was once good. Served God for many years. The issue however is sacrifice. Are we willing to lay our lives down for God as He did for us? It takes no less to be saved.

The unsaved and devils can "appear" good, but in essence are not at all good.

[/QUOTE]We are not slaves to sin. Sin does not rule over us. But we can still sin.[/QUOTE]
If we commit sin, it rules over us. (John 8:32-34)

We will / should never find a Christian in mortal sins. Once offs of a mortal sin are still possible. Daily once offs of venial sins is possible. Emphasis on 'once off vs continuing' in. If we are sold out to Jesus we will not crave being in the mud. Rather when we fall into mud, we will jump out and want to get washed asap.

The doctrine you present pollutes the body of Christ.

Mortal and venial sins should not be a Catholic only subject. It is on par with saying the trinity is Catholic only.

They are the ones that differentiate between levels of rebellion against God, but to God all sin disqualifies you from the book of life.

There are many scriptures from Paul urging us to judge and discern ourselves, others and all things. Grasping God's differing punishments in the OT, grasping the need for differing rewards according to deeds done, judging sincerity of repentance. This is all I am doing. Suggesting matters are black and white is not discernment. You are reading these scriptures in isolation to the entire bible. ''We are born of God and cannot sin'' is God saying that us living by the spirit does not upset Him. By the spirit we do not sin.[/QUOTE]
There are no shades of grey in Christ.
Serve God or serve sin. Walk in darkness or walk in the light. Walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh.
Those are the only two options.
It is written..." Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Do you have a reason to disbelieve this verse?
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
Godly seed cannot bear wicked fruit.

If you take the verse of the devil sinning from the beginning literally, then you must believe he was sinning in heaven too. I agree. He committed venial sins in heaven. Mortal sins / being sold out to sin got him removed. Just as Adam and Eve had to actually eat the fruit, not just think about eating it. Just as actual adultery is grounds for divorce Matt 5:32 and not thoughts Matt 5:28. Jesus also made this point so we could grasp that God did not make a mistake removing him. The devil has never wanted to repent.

I don't know what verse you refer to when siting the devil sinned from the beginning.
All sin is "selling out to sin".
Temptation is not sin.
Acting on it is.

I believe you are missing what Paul is trying to explain in Rom 7.
Paul is saying that by the spirit he ''hates'' what his flesh does. He is now justified by the law of Christ (spirit) and not the law of the letter. Since the spirit ''hates'' what the flesh does, it is not guilty of the sin. This does not mean we do not sin.

I missed nothing.
Paul uses the "present-narrative" tense to present from a present perspective how he lived in the past...before he had crucified the flesh and started walking in the Spirit.

Wit a true repentance from sin, and a baptism into Christ and His death, we can all live without serving sin anymore.

 

[At Peace]

1 Corinthians 3:1
But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

People in the flesh are the antithesis of people in the Spirit.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

these people were clearly saved, yet still weak in the flesh meaning they still sinned. It is a process and we do not become perfect until we receive our glorified bodies. The way some of you make accusations about people that do not agree with you is down right terrible and shameful !!

Does your body rule your mind?
Or does your mind rule your body?
You won't be able to blame your skin for your sins at the final judgement.

If all of you think you Keep the second greatest commandment that Jesus Christ gave us 24/7 of Loving your Neighbor as yourself, I would ask you to take a deep deep personal look in the mirror. I believe he gave us that commandment partially to show us all just how far from perfect we are. Who will lay down there life for your neighbor right now with out a doubt ???

Do you not desire, from the bottom of your heart, to obey Christ;s commandment?
I think the ones who need to look in the mirror are the ones who claim they love God while they offend Him.

BTW, what did Paul command the Corithians to do with the "sinners"?
He told them to kick them out! (1 Cor 5:3-5)
Sinners have no part in the body of Christ.

unintentional sin is the word I think that has been missing from this discussion.

Killing someone is a sin, but what about if you do it in a accident? seems people here are suggesting this type of thing could not happen because they are perfect and do not sin???

What if you ignore someone who comes to you for help because you are so busy doing something else? have you loved that person like yourself? yet you did not do it on-purpose.

I think the list of unintentional sin is long and just goes to show us we need a savior in Christ, the closer I get to Christ the more I see how badly I need him. Thank you Jesus !!

James wrote..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:14-15}
All sin is intentional.
There is no accidental act following temptation, lust, enticement, and conception.
I thank God who provides an escape from every temptation. (1 Cor 19:13)

 

[At Peace]

OH @At Peace , I truly, truly say this in all love an concern for you with no offensive intent: You are wrong on so many accounts! As far as I know, you are Christian, albeit a misguided one.
Matthew 12:31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

• This is plain and simple, God will not or can not forgive unbelief , if you die in this condition!
• When God mentions Idolatry, he is stating that if you die in this condition. It is common knowledge by most "Born Again " Christians and in the above verse, Idolatry can be forgiven!!!

• Any sin except blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, can be forgiven, but you gotta play by God's rules.
• That being, you gotta quit that sin permanently.
• Anything less, manifests the repentance was a lie.
• You can't forge a relationship with God that is based on a lie.

Yes friend you are confused!
Christ is the only judge.

• Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.B)"> 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

My "confusion" has led me to life in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
Thanks be to God.
The judgement for my past sins warranted death. (Rom 6:23)
Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; (death), and some men they follow after." ( 1 Tim 5:24)
My death happened when I was "immersed" into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-6)
The result?
It is written..."For he that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom 6:7)
My life is testimony to the truth of this verse.

 

[At Peace]

Hi Peace.
. But, we still do things that displease God. Its called free will and we will always have it.

Dear KingJ,
In light of the fact that we do have free will, you must acknowledge that some will serve God at all times.
To assume otherwise would negate the free will of those who wish to remain faithful.

 

[KingJ]

Dear KingJ,
In light of the fact that we do have free will, you must acknowledge that some will serve God at all times.
To assume otherwise would negate the free will of those who wish to remain faithful.

Serve God at all times, perfectly. I think not. Serve God better then others, sure. Not one of us comes close to the relationship Job had with God for example.

We just have to ensure we both agree on the fact that God wants us to serve Him in spirit and truth. Not only outwardly. More important to carry the cross He has given to us and have sinful thoughts wishing we never had it, over dropping it to the floor and claiming to live without sin.

 

[At Peace]

Serve God at all times, perfectly. I think not. Serve God better then others, sure. Not one of us comes close to the relationship Job had with God for example.

Those not yet reborn of God's seed will continue to bring forth evil fruit, but those who have turned from sin and been reborn of God will not bear evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)

We just have to ensure we both agree on the fact that God wants us to serve Him in spirit and truth. Not only outwardly. More important to carry the cross He has given to us and have sinful thoughts wishing we never had it, over dropping it to the floor and claiming to live without sin.

We can agree on the fact that God wants us to serve Him in Spirit and in truth, but you apparently don't think God has provided a way for us to do so.
I know He has.

 

[Hekuran]

Even our best moments are tainted by our sinful nature. I have worked in Christian organisations of different kinds for many years and have got to know many pastors, leaders, missionaries and community workers from all Christian traditions who have made profound sacrifices to serve the Lord. I hold many of them in the highest esteem, yet I do not know anyone who is free of sin. In fact, those that follow Jesus most closely tend also to be most aware of their sinfulness.

As I have matured as a Christian, I have become more atuned to how far my life falls short of God's standard.

A brief example:

A few weeks ago, as I was stepping out of the office to get some bread and cheese for my lunch, there was a homeless man in reception. Three of my colleagues were with him, but they were clearly feeling out of their depth and asked me what to do. The man was a Hungarian national, his English was not at all good and he was saying that he was about to walk 70 miles to Dover and get back home.

I suggested a few people they could call, and went to buy food.

When I got back, they had not had much success with phone calls. I sat down with the man for a while, engaged in what conversation I could and tried to think through how best to help him.

We found out that there is a day centre not too far from the office that serves food, hot showers and gives advice. With the help of google maps I walked him there, made sure he had a decent meal and that the staff understood his situation. By this time, I had gone over my allotted lunch hour so I made up the time at the end of the day. Given the time and the resources, this was the best and most appropriate care I could offer.

But. As I left the building with him I was delighted to look behind me and see one of the senior staff members coming out of the building. Shamefully, my natural thoughts went along the lines of: "look at me! I am caring! I can take control of awkward situations! I am compassionate! I have initiative! I have sacrificed my lunch hour for someone in need! look at me!"
​

Even when I think I am simply caring for someone in need, there is still an element of pride and self-regard that falls way short of Jesus' example. This is true of every follower of Jesus I know.

 

[Lanolin]

I have decided to follow Jesus, no turning back, no turning back.

Does anyone know this song? Why do people turn back? Maybe they dont really want to follow him. Maybe they are doubleminded and unstable in all their ways. Jesus calls us to be singleminded.

Just because there are doubleminded people who think its ok to be impure and have shades of grey does not negate the fact that there ARE people that singlemindedly keep following Jesus and never look back. This is called faith! This is surrendering all to Him.

Jesus knows who is truly repentant and who is just paying lipservice, saying Im sorry and then continuing to do the same thing again. It doesnt matter if you are SINcere. What matters is you put that sin to death on the cross.

I am shocked that people on here think its ok to sin and then take the Lords name in vain! They fake their repentance and pretend to follow Jesus...some of the time.

Then they blame God for keeping them in the flesh! But the whole reason Jesus died on the cross was to put sin to death! His blood was poured out for you! So you can obtain mercy! His flesh was pierced for us. He was kicked and beaten and mocked. Do people not understand the high price he paid so that you can have eternal life?

Dont say that God tempts you as you make Him out to be a liar. James 1:13

People need to learn to tell satan the accuser of the brethren to get lost. He is the one who steals, kills and destroys, and will influence people to think evil thoughts. Well how about taking every thought captive to Christ and renewing your mind with His word?

If you have a sin that you really want to let go of, confess it to Him. Right now. I dont know what it may be because everyone is different. Dont just say 'I'm a sinner' but be specific. What in your heart is weighing you down?

For christians if we are doing good its natural to want to have praise for that but the thing is we can only do good because God is good to us. This is what Jesus was getting at when he didnt want people calling him good. He always gave glory to God the Father.

 

[Hekuran]

@Lanolin in this this thread nobody has said it's ok to sin.

 

[Dave M]

Even our best moments are tainted by our sinful nature. I have worked in Christian organisations of different kinds for many years and have got to know many pastors, leaders, missionaries and community workers from all Christian traditions who have made profound sacrifices to serve the Lord. I hold many of them in the highest esteem, yet I do not know anyone who is free of sin. In fact, those that follow Jesus most closely tend also to be most aware of their sinfulness.

As I have matured as a Christian, I have become more atuned to how far my life falls short of God's standard.

A brief example:

A few weeks ago, as I was stepping out of the office to get some bread and cheese for my lunch, there was a homeless man in reception. Three of my colleagues were with him, but they were clearly feeling out of their depth and asked me what to do. The man was a Hungarian national, his English was not at all good and he was saying that he was about to walk 70 miles to Dover and get back home.

I suggested a few people they could call, and went to buy food.

When I got back, they had not had much success with phone calls. I sat down with the man for a while, engaged in what conversation I could and tried to think through how best to help him.

We found out that there is a day centre not too far from the office that serves food, hot showers and gives advice. With the help of google maps I walked him there, made sure he had a decent meal and that the staff understood his situation. By this time, I had gone over my allotted lunch hour so I made up the time at the end of the day. Given the time and the resources, this was the best and most appropriate care I could offer.

But. As I left the building with him I was delighted to look behind me and see one of the senior staff members coming out of the building. Shamefully, my natural thoughts went along the lines of: "look at me! I am caring! I can take control of awkward situations! I am compassionate! I have initiative! I have sacrificed my lunch hour for someone in need! look at me!"
​

Even when I think I am simply caring for someone in need, there is still an element of pride and self-regard that falls way short of Jesus' example. This is true of every follower of Jesus I know.

Post of the day right there, thank you sir !!! some will get it other will not.

 

[At Peace]

Even our best moments are tainted by our sinful nature.

My "sinful nature" was killed with the rest of the old man when I was baptized into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

 

[Dave M]

Ecclesiastes 7:20 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.


Romans 3:23 ESV / 41 helpful votes
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1 John 1:8 ESV / 34 helpful votes
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Romans 6:6 ESV / 13 helpful votes
We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Romans 7:18 ESV / 12 helpful votes
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Galatians 5:16 ESV / 11 helpful votes
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

 

[Lanolin]

@Lanolin in this this thread nobody has said it's ok to sin.

Well good because nobody here should be sinning and then claiming they are a christian. They need to get right with God and ask Jesus to deliver them.

My "sinful nature" was killed with the rest of the old man when I was baptized into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

Which brings me to the next question do people understand what it means to be baptised. I dont think many do because I asked and a few just said they were baptised but never said anything about what they repented of. Some gave scriptures but many did not.

It seems many take Gods grace for granted. If you knew how much your sin hurts ands offends God you would never ever do it again. How many times must we grieve the holy spirit and ignore Him? What does it mean to be forgiven and given a new life? It seems like many are just carying on with their old lives or even returning back to it. Well He doesnt just gives us new clothes so we can look holy and covered. He changes us from inside out.

A scripture often posted comes from 2 Peter 2:9 the Lord knoweth how to deliver the ungodly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust to the day of judgement to be punished


but also look at the next verse

2 Peter 2:10

But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.


Notice...self-willed. People will say oh but we have free-will. Well there are to ways you can use that will..for selfish reasons or doing God's will.

Notice also the unjust are reserved for the day of judgement to be punished. Who are the unjust? People that sin. So they are waiting around to meet their maker, not for a reward but for punishment. Wheras believers, those who are Godly are DELIVERED.

Does anyone know what being reserved means and what being delivered means and what the difference is?

proverbs 28:13

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but he that confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

I hope people know what forsaketh means!

Even our best moments are tainted by our sinful nature. I have worked in Christian organisations of different kinds for many years and have got to know many pastors, leaders, missionaries and community workers from all Christian traditions who have made profound sacrifices to serve the Lord. I hold many of them in the highest esteem, yet I do not know anyone who is free of sin. In fact, those that follow Jesus most closely tend also to be most aware of their sinfulness.

As I have matured as a Christian, I have become more atuned to how far my life falls short of God's standard.

A brief example:

A few weeks ago, as I was stepping out of the office to get some bread and cheese for my lunch, there was a homeless man in reception. Three of my colleagues were with him, but they were clearly feeling out of their depth and asked me what to do. The man was a Hungarian national, his English was not at all good and he was saying that he was about to walk 70 miles to Dover and get back home.

I suggested a few people they could call, and went to buy food.

When I got back, they had not had much success with phone calls. I sat down with the man for a while, engaged in what conversation I could and tried to think through how best to help him.

We found out that there is a day centre not too far from the office that serves food, hot showers and gives advice. With the help of google maps I walked him there, made sure he had a decent meal and that the staff understood his situation. By this time, I had gone over my allotted lunch hour so I made up the time at the end of the day. Given the time and the resources, this was the best and most appropriate care I could offer.

But. As I left the building with him I was delighted to look behind me and see one of the senior staff members coming out of the building. Shamefully, my natural thoughts went along the lines of: "look at me! I am caring! I can take control of awkward situations! I am compassionate! I have initiative! I have sacrificed my lunch hour for someone in need! look at me!"
​

Even when I think I am simply caring for someone in need, there is still an element of pride and self-regard that falls way short of Jesus' example. This is true of every follower of Jesus I know.

Did you pray for this man or just leave him and rely on your own resources. You know you can ask God for help at anytime. He has more resources than we have.

 

[Hekuran]

Did you pray for this man or just leave him and rely on your own resources. You know you can ask God for help at anytime. He has more resources than we have.

Prayer or no prayer, the issue I highlighted was the way pride and self regard worm into every situation.

 

[Dave M]

I feel sorry for all you who think you are perfect for it is written

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.


@Lanolin now I am going to try to show you how hurtful you are when you accuse people of making God a liar you should repent and apologize for that. I can easily stoop to your level and say you have made God a liar when you and Peice say that no one sin unintentionally but I would never do that because it is disrespectful hurtful and the opposite of Love ! and no one in this thread would ever call God a liar we may disagree but that is no reason to make claims such as that, I would ask you to apologize to everyone. You are not the one stop all answer's to bible interpretation and you are dead wrong on what the bible says about many things especially when it comes to unintentionally-sin

Leviticus 4:2
The Lord said to Moses “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,

you know why most of the really mature Christians who really know the word of God do not participate in these threads, is because of people argue and insult each other accusing people of making the Lord a Liar. Petty worldly behavior !!

Leviticus 5:15
“If anyone commits a breach of faith and sins unintentionally in any of the holy things of the Lord, he shall bring to the Lord as his compensation, a ram without blemish out of the flock, valued in silver shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, for a guilt offering.

Leviticus 4:27
“If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the Lord's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,

1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Big difference in being a slave to sin before we are saved and set free from it and sins unintentionally or stumbles, yes you better believe you will not be wicked, you will not practice sin, but you may still stumble just a mere in-pure thought is sin.

 

[Born Again 2004]

I feel sorry for all you who think you are perfect for it is written

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.


@Lanolin now I am going to try to show you how hurtful you are when you accuse people of making God a liar you should repent and apologize for that. I can easily stoop to your level and say you have made God a liar when you and Peice say that no one sin unintentionally but I would never do that because it is disrespectful hurtful and the opposite of Love ! and no one in this thread would ever call God a liar we may disagree but that is no reason to make claims such as that, I would ask you to apologize to everyone. You are not the one stop all answer's to bible interpretation and you are dead wrong on what the bible says about many things especially when it comes to unintentionally-sin

Leviticus 4:2
The Lord said to Moses “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,

you know why most of the really mature Christians who really know the word of God do not participate in these threads, is because of people argue and insult each other accusing people of making the Lord a Liar. Petty worldly behavior !!

Leviticus 5:15
“If anyone commits a breach of faith and sins unintentionally in any of the holy things of the Lord, he shall bring to the Lord as his compensation, a ram without blemish out of the flock, valued in silver shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, for a guilt offering.

Leviticus 4:27
“If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the Lord's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,

1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Big difference in being a slave to sin before we are saved and set free from it and sins unintentionally or stumbles, yes you better believe you will not be wicked, you will not practice sin, but you may still stumble just a mere in-pure thought is sin.

Thank you Brother Dave, You hit the "proverbial" nail on the head!
If I may , I will add or reinforce that for those who appose your thread and believe that there are Christians running around doing the things that they say they are....well, probably there are those that do that but I assure you they are not saved in the first place and they are seen in these two verse:

1. Revelation 3 16-17 So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
2. Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[B-A-C]

Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I personally don't agree that they were never saved. But for sake of debate, lets say they never were saved.
What determines this? How do we know they aren't saved? Let's look at Jesus's words in this passage.

Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Did He say they were wrong to cast out demons, prophesy and do wonders? No... He tells those "practice lawlessness"
to depart from Him. Now maybe they didn't "always" practice unlawlessness, or maybe they did. To me it doesn't
matter that much, the point is.. they are practicing it now.

This same passage is in Luke.

Luke 13:26; "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
Luke 13:27; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

Again.... we does He tell them to depart from Him? Is it because of what they believe? No they ate and drank with Him.. they
listened to His teaching... The reason He tells them to depart from Him is because they are "evil-doers".

Now maybe they were never saved in the first place... OK maybe they weren't. But they thing that determines this is
whether they are evildoers or if they practice lawlessness. If we are practicing unrighteousness, we aren't saved.
It doesn't matter if we were saved before or not... We aren't practicing it now.

2 Pet 3:14; Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

1 Jn 3:3; And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 Jn 3:4; Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

1 Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Now unlike some.... I don't believe this happens in an "instant" for everyone. But I believe it does eventually have
to happen. If someone is repenting of say... (homosexuality/pornography/lying/gambling/drunkenness/drug abuse/
child abuse/) etc... and they say, yes I repented. I've been repenting for the last 30 years. Everytime I do this thing,
I ask for repentance. If you have been doing it for 20 or 30 years... you haven't repented.

Luke 13:5; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Now if it is as you say.. they were never saved in the first place... fine. The point is, if they are doing now they aren't saved.

 

[Dave M]

I personally don't agree that they were never saved. But for sake of debate, lets say they never were saved.
What determines this? How do we know they aren't saved? Let's look at Jesus's words in this passage.

Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

"Did He say they were wrong to cast out demons, prophesy and do wonders? No... He tells those "practice lawlessness"
to depart from Him. Now maybe they didn't "always" practice unlawlessness, or maybe they did. To me it doesn't
matter that much, the point is.. they are practicing it now".

@B-A-C Jesus said he NEVER knew them that means they were never saved to me, now if they were saved at one point and time like I think you are suggesting Jesus would of known them at one time. But he says he NEVER knew them.

 

[Born Again 2004]

I personally don't agree that they were never saved.

@B-A-C , You and I have debated for a long time now and I know how you stand.

But as you say, for the sake debate, would you mind answering the two following questions:

• Are you a true "Born Again" Christian?
• Can you Leave God or otherwise do the things that you say that these people do?