What to expect in hell

[Jonathan_Gale]

Jesus' followers can expect to retain their souls when they pass on, but things are
not looking good for the lost. According to Matt 10:28, people's souls survive
normal death, but do not survive Hell fire. That fact gives me pause to question
whether people condemned to the lake of fire-- depicted by Rev 20:11-15 --will be
aware of their circumstances in an environment that destroys both soul and body.

Matt. 10:28 is referring to the resurrection. All bodies will perish, but “they cannot kill your soul” is the future resurrection, losing both body and soul means no resurrection. You can see that in the saints who are martyred for refusing to bow down to Satan, especially in Rev. 6:9, the fifth seal, right after the four horsemen.

Actually, I just have to confess and boast that in my eastern philosophy, body and mind are ONE, there’s no influence of Greek Gnosticism where there’s this dichotomy of body and mind. This is closer to the biblical definition of soul, and it’s more scientific, considering the gut-brain axis. What’s new from the Bible is the Holy Spirit, who gives us a new birth that goes beyond the soul and lasts forever.

 

[Beetow]

• Deut 34:5-6 . . Moses the servant of The Lord died there in the land of Moab,
according to the word of The Lord. And He buried him in the valley in the land of
Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.

A very curious scene unfolded during Moses' burial.

• Jude 1:9 . . Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the Devil and argued
about the body of Moses, did not dare to accuse him of blaspheme, but said: "The
Lord rebuke you."

* Though the passage above shows God responsible for Moses' burial, the actual
labor was apparently assigned.

Anyway; if the Devil would interfere with the burial of a holy man like Moses, then I
think we can safely assume he (or one of his minions) probably interferes with the
burials of ordinary folk too; and I should think the smartest way for him to interfere
is to ensure the minister comes out with nothing useful in his eulogy; but instead
with the usual mushy rhetoric by which nobody hearing it can be saved. (Just goes
to show that the Devil is not above walking over the bones of the dead to get what
he wants.)
_

 

[complete]

Matt. 10:28 is referring to the resurrection. All bodies will perish, but “they cannot kill your soul” is the future resurrection, losing both body and soul means no resurrection. You can see that in the saints who are martyred for refusing to bow down to Satan, especially in Rev. 6:9, the fifth seal, right after the four horsemen.

Actually, I just have to confess and boast that in my eastern philosophy, body and mind are ONE, there’s no influence of Greek Gnosticism where there’s this dichotomy of body and mind. This is closer to the biblical definition of soul, and it’s more scientific, considering the gut-brain axis. What’s new from the Bible is the Holy Spirit, who gives us a new birth that goes beyond the soul and lasts forever.

'The soul that sinneth it shall surely die'
'All have sinned and come short of the glory of God'
The soul is the whole man
The soul is not immortal
It will die.

 

[Beetow]

God prohibits dishonesty.

• Lev 19:11 . . You shall not deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

I think it's probably safe to posit that more liars are now, and more liars will be, in
Hell than gays and lesbians simply because deceit, deception, fraud, cover-ups,
dissembling, cheating, false impressions, pretense, and half truths are far more
common.

• Rev 21:8 . . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and
brimstone, which is the second death.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

'The soul that sinneth it shall surely die'
'All have sinned and come short of the glory of God'
The soul is the whole man
The soul is not immortal
It will die.

The soul is the status of "living", not an entity like body or spirit. When the body dies, this status ends, but not the spirit. Any unclean spirit other than the Holy Spirit will suffer for eternity. The bottom line is, "soul" and "spirit" are not interchangeable.

 

[Beetow]

• Ps 73:3-17 . . I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the
wicked. Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.

• Matt 16:26 . . For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses
his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

It's been my observation that many of the powerful folks controlling education,
finance, manufacturing, governance, entertainment, food production, health care,
pharmaceuticals, print media and broadcast news, etc, are quite lacking scruples,
and conduct their affairs as if they're foreign sovereigns with no one to answer to
beyond the sphere of their existence; not realizing that the path of their success is
leading them down a road of no return.
_

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It's been my observation that many of the powerful folks controlling education,
finance, manufacturing, governance, entertainment, food production, health care,
pharmaceuticals, print media and broadcast news, etc, are quite lacking scruples,
and conduct their affairs as if they're foreign sovereigns with no one to answer to
beyond the sphere of their existence; not realizing that the path of their success is
leading them down a road of no return.

Those are controlled by the spirits of the Watchers, God's divine council in Ps. 82, often called "sons of God". The expression of plural "elohim" in Gen. 1-3 is NOT referring to the trinity, but this divine council. In Deut. 32:8-9, Septuigent version, God entrusted them to manage the nations on earth, to run these industries, and yet they have abused their power and led the nations to sin. Therefore they will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire at the end.

 

[complete]

(Psa 82:1) 'God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; He judgeth among the gods.
(Psa 82:2) How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
(Psa 82:3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
(Psa 82:4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
(Psa 82:5) They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.'

Hello @Jonathan_Gale,

Angels are called 'sons of God' because created by God: Adam is called a 'son of God' in the genealogy of our Lord, in the gospels, for the same reason. In Psalm 82 the assembly spoken of is the civil assembly, and the word, 'gods' (in this case) used of earthly judges as representing Him (cp. Exodus 21:6 & 22:8.9 & 28 (quoted in Acts 23:5), as the context shows; Moses is referred to in that way in (Exodus 7:1).

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 refers to Genesis 10:32, 'the Most High,' is God as 'the possessor of heaven and earth'.

Where are you drawing all your information from, Jonathan? 'Speaking evil of dignities' is not advised (Jude 1:8. and 1 Peter 2:10).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Hello @Jonathan_Gale,

Angels are called 'sons of God' because created by God: Adam is called a 'son of God' in the genealogy of our Lord, in the gospels, for the same reason. In Psalm 82 the assembly spoken of is the civil assembly, and the word, 'gods' (in this case) used of earthly judges as representing Him (cp. Exodus 21:6 & 22:8.9 & 28 (quoted in Acts 23:5), as the context shows; Moses is referred to in that way in (Exodus 7:1).

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 refers to Genesis 10:32, 'the Most High,' is God as 'the possessor of heaven and earth'.

Where are you drawing all your information from, Jonathan? 'Speaking evil of dignities' is not advised (Jude 1:8. and 1 Peter 2:10).

Hello there, I draw this from the original worldview through which the Bible was written. And also, it’s consistent with other appearances of this term, “sons of God”. There is a spiritual realm where God and these angels dwell. These spiritual beings who were there at the beginning:

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined it’s measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? Yo what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid it’s cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7)

Same expression appeared in Gen. 6:2, where they bred with human; and Job 1:6, which shows they were with Satan. By no means are they earthly judges as you and most Christians think, otherwise we wouldn’t have needed to put on the full armor of God to fight this spiritual warfare. Paul also told us that one day we’ll be judging angels, that’s exactly what Ps. 82 is talking about, these corrupt angels will be judged. This is not talking about pastors, Israelites or any earthly rulers, but angels, literally, for real.

 

[B-A-C]

There is a spiritual realm where God and these angels dwell. These spiritual beings who were there at the beginning:

Angels did not exist before creation. They themselves are created beings.

Ezek 28:13; "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

By no means are they earthly judges as you and most Christians think

What Christians believe this? None that I know of. The angels didn't judge or destroy Sodom, God did.

Gen 19:13; for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the LORD that the LORD has sent us to destroy it."
Gen 19:14; Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, "Up, get out of this place, for the LORD will destroy the city." But he appeared to his sons-in-law to be jesting.
Gen 19:24; Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,

There is a spiritual realm where God and these angels dwell.

Angels can sometimes become tangible flesh, you can touch them, and they can touch you.

Gen 19:1; Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.
Gen 19:10; But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door.

 

[complete]

Hello there, I draw this from the original worldview through which the Bible was written. And also, it’s consistent with other appearances of this term, “sons of God”. There is a spiritual realm where God and these angels dwell. These spiritual beings who were there at the beginning:

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined it’s measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? Yo what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid it’s cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7)

Same expression appeared in Gen. 6:2, where they bred with human; and Job 1:6, which shows they were with Satan. By no means are they earthly judges as you and most Christians think, otherwise we wouldn’t have needed to put on the full armour of God to fight this spiritual warfare. Paul also told us that one day we’ll be judging angels, that’s exactly what Ps. 82 is talking about, these corrupt angels will be judged. This is not talking about pastors, Israelites or any earthly rulers, but angels, literally, for real.

'And it came to pass,
when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them,
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;
and they took them wives of all which they chose.'
(Gen 6:1-2)

' Now there was a day when the sons of God came
to present themselves before the LORD,
and Satan came also among them.'
(Job 1:6)

Hello @Jonathan_Gale,

Where does this, 'original worldview' that you speak of, come from, what are it's sources?

If Psalm 82 is upheld by the majority to be referring to the civil assembly in Israel, then surely the burden of proof rests with you to prove it to be otherwise, The context of Psalm 82 denies what you say, for it says, 'defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy'. etc., which all point to those living upon the earth, under the care of a civil assembly: and not to angelic beings.

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Who is above all principality
power, might and dominion.

Chris

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Where does this, 'original worldview' that you speak of, come from, what are it's sources?

If Psalm 82 is upheld by the majority to be referring to the civil assembly in Israel, then surely the burden of proof rests with you to prove it to be otherwise, The context of Psalm 82 denies what you say, for it says, 'defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy'. etc., which all point to those living upon the earth, under the care of a civil assembly: and not to angelic beings.

“Civil assembly of Israel” doesn’t hold water for a simple reason- INCONSISTENCY. Did the civil assembly of Israel mated with daughters of men before the flood? (Gen. 6:2) Did the civil assembly of Israel present themselves before God along with Satan? (Job 1:6) Were they there when God laid the foundation of the earth? (Job 38:7) The context of Ps. 82 is that these sons of God will be judged for their misconduct, and don’t take my word for it, check Ps. 82:6-7 for yourself.

And to answer your question, this worldview originated from Deut. 32:8 -

“When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set boundaries of the people’s according to the number of the sons of God.”

This verse is referring to the Tower of Babel, god scattered the nations and set boundaries. In most translations, “sons of God” is replaced with “children of Israel”, that’s a deadly error. In Septuigent and Dead Sea Scrolls, the original text reads “angels of God” and “sons of God”, respectively.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

What Christians believe this? None that I know of. The angels didn't judge or destroy Sodom, God did.

Christians like @complete that “spiritualize” these verses when it doesn’t fit into their narrative, where these angels/sons of God/heavenly hosts are just a poetic expression for earthly rulers.

Angels did not exist before creation. They themselves are created beings.

That’s not the point. Just because they’re created beings doesn’t mean they’re mortal, earthly beings. They’re called “sons of God” simply because they share the same nature and essence with God, it’s the same as “son of thunder”, “son of serpent”.

 

[complete]

“Civil assembly of Israel” doesn’t hold water for a simple reason- INCONSISTENCY. Did the civil assembly of Israel mated with daughters of men before the flood? (Gen. 6:2) Did the civil assembly of Israel present themselves before God along with Satan? (Job 1:6) Were they there when God laid the foundation of the earth? (Job 38:7) The context of Ps. 82 is that these sons of God will be judged for their misconduct, and don’t take my word for it, check Ps. 82:6-7 for yourself.

And to answer your question, this worldview originated from Deut. 32:8 -

“When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set boundaries of the people’s according to the number of the sons of God.”

This verse is referring to the Tower of Babel, god scattered the nations and set boundaries. In most translations, “sons of God” is replaced with “children of Israel”, that’s a deadly error. In Septuigent and Dead Sea Scrolls, the original text reads “angels of God” and “sons of God”, respectively.

'I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.'
(Psa 82:6-7)

Hello @Jonathan_Gale,

The Lord Jesus Christ, referred to these words, 'I have said, ye are gods', in John 10:34-36:-

'Jesus answered them,
"Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?'
If He called them gods, unto whom the word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified,
and sent into the world, 'Thou blasphemest';
because I said, 'I am the Son of God?' ... "

* This categorically denies your interpretation of these words, Jonathan. Coming from the mouth of Him Who only spoke the words of God the Father Who was 'in' Him.

* See also Exodus 22:9 & Exodus 22:28 in which the 'Judges' of the civil assembly in v.9 are called 'gods' in v.28. Confirmed by Christ Himself (above).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Christians like @complete that “spiritualize” these verses when it doesn’t fit into their narrative, where these angels/sons of God/heavenly hosts are just a poetic expression for earthly rulers.


That’s not the point. Just because they’re created beings doesn’t mean they’re mortal, earthly beings. They’re called “sons of God” simply because they share the same nature and essence with God, it’s the same as “son of thunder”, “son of serpent”.

Hello @Johathan_Gale,

If you have anything to say concerning myself, then please do so to my face, and not to other members.

I do not 'spiritualise' anything.

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Complete

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Hello @Jonathan_Gale,

The Lord Jesus Christ, referred to these words, 'I have said, ye are gods', in John 10:34-36:-

'Jesus answered them,
"Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?'
If He called them gods, unto whom the word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified,
and sent into the world, 'Thou blasphemest';
because I said, 'I am the Son of God?' ... "

* This categorically denies your interpretation of these words, Jonathan. Coming from the mouth of Him Who only spoke the words of God the Father Who was 'in' Him.

* See also Exodus 22:9 & Exodus 22:28 in which the 'Judges' of the civil assembly in v.9 are called 'gods' in v.28. Confirmed by Christ Himself (above).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Your interpretation is denied by Ps. 82:7, and again, incoherent with other mentions of "sons of God" in the bible. In Ex. 22:9 and 22:28 those judges were men, how come that they shal die LIKE men? And fall LIKE one of those princes? The "god" in "You are gods" simply means those "sons of God" were not suppose to perish in that way, they were supposed to last forever like God, but it was hereby announced that they would die as well. And Yeshua was quoting Ps. 82:7 in John 10:34-36 to rebuke the Pharisees who falsely accused him of blasphamy.

If you have anything to say concerning myself, then please do so to my face, and not to other members.

I do not 'spiritualise' anything.

Yes you do, as long as you insist that those "sons of God" are human rulers instead of spiritual beings - and our enemy in the battlefield of spiritual warfare. My interpretation is solidly based on from Deut. 32:8-9 instead of any earthly rulers.

 

[complete]

Your interpretation is denied by Ps. 82:7, and again, incoherent with other mentions of "sons of God" in the bible. In Ex. 22:9 and 22:28 those judges were men, how come that they shal die LIKE men? And fall LIKE one of those princes? The "god" in "You are gods" simply means those "sons of God" were not suppose to perish in that way, they were supposed to last forever like God, but it was hereby announced that they would die as well. And Yeshua was quoting Ps. 82:7 in John 10:34-36 to rebuke the Pharisees who falsely accused him of blasphamy.


Yes you do, as long as you insist that those "sons of God" are human rulers instead of spiritual beings - and our enemy in the battlefield of spiritual warfare. My interpretation is solidly based on from Deut. 32:8-9 instead of any earthly rulers.

Hello @Jonathan_Gale,

I stand by what I have said in replies #248, #251 & #254.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Hello @Jonathan_Gale,

I stand by what I have said in replies #248, #251 & #254.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Then unfortunately you’re just being stubborn. I stand by what the text plainly states - sons of God, not rulers or judges of Israel.

 

[Beetow]

I was raised a Roman Catholic, which is a complicated religion. Once someone is
fully committed by completing First Holy Communion and Confirmation and
undergone Christian baptism --God will be holding them accountable to comply with
everything Rome teaches and stands for: the Commandments, the Canon Law, the
dogma, the rituals, the Traditions, the Councils, the Bulls, the Encyclicals, the rites,
the holy days of obligation, and the entire Catechism; plus everything that Jesus
and the apostles taught in the New Testament, i.e. all four gospels and all twenty
one epistles, plus Acts and Revelation.

That's a lot to remember, let alone put into practice.

And then there's the matter of mortal sin. When Catholics leave this life with just
one mortal sin on the books awaiting absolution, just one, they go straight to Hell.
It's a direct flight; no stopover in a Purgatory. Even if a Catholic managed to be a
top performer in faith and practice for fifty years, none of that will be taken into
consideration. They will leave this life as if they'd been a pagan the whole time.
Mortal sins are that lethal.

In addition; the Almighty isn't a political appointee like members of the US
Supreme Court, viz: He isn't biased towards the left or to the right, i.e. the justice
of God is fair across the board regardless of age, race, gender and/or religious
preference, so that affiliation with The Church grants no one a certain amount of
special consideration. (Rom 2:6-11, and 1Pet 1:17)

And the irony of it all; the supreme irony, is that Catholicism's hierarchy-- e.g.
priests, nuns, Popes, and Cardinals --are in just as much danger of failing to make
the cut as rank and file pew warmers; in point of fact: according to Luke 12:47-48,
they may be in greater danger.

* My eldest brother entered the Catholic priesthood and was a Friar when he
passed away back in 2015. I often wonder about his present circumstances because
there are no guarantees in that religion. My concern isn't helped by the fact that he
was an alcoholic and in later years became doubtful a Hell even exists.
_

 

[Beetow]

Gen 2:15-17 is a favorite among critics because Adam didn't drop dead within 24
hours of tasting the forbidden fruit. In point of fact, he continued to live outside the
garden of Eden for another 800 years after the birth of his son Seth. (Gen 5:4)

Some say Adam died a "spiritual" death, and that's true, but not entirely true, viz:
the explanation isn't misinformation, rather, it's missing information.

Human life was created in the image and likeness of God. In other words: human
life came out of the box with immortality, i.e. with perpetual youth. Adam lost
immortality when he tasted the forbidden fruit, i.e. his body lost its perpetual youth
and began to age.

Adam's body became infected with mortality, which is a lingering death rather than
sudden death, i.e. mortality is slow, but very relentless: like Arnold Swarzenegger's
movie character "The Terminator" mortality feels neither pain nor pity, nor remorse
nor fear; it cannot be reasoned with nor can it be bargained with, and it absolutely
will not stop-- ever! --until our useless corpse is ready for burial.

• Eccl 7:2 . . It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of
mirth, for death is the destiny of every man: the living should take this seriously.
(cf. Luke 12:16-21)

NOTE: Superhuman bodies like Arnold Swarzenegger's look indestructible when
young, but their youth isn't permanent. Today Arnold is pushing 76 and taking on
the appearance of withering vegetables.
_