Why didn’t Jesus correct the Jews?
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DHC
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Hello Judge not.
You stated the following.
There exists a problem with your first statement 'Where is the Father's throne'.
The scripture does not mention that there is a throne occupied only by the Father,
a 'Father's throne' is an idea external to the scripture?
A throne belongs to a King, Judge not. A king sits on a throne and there is only one King
revealed in the scripture! The heavenly throne is occupied by the 'King of kings'.
There is only one 'King of kings' mentioned in the scripture Judge not.
1 Timothy 1
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory
forever and ever.
The throne in heaven can only be occupied by the true King of heaven and earth.
This King mentioned above is eternal and is the only God.
The 'King eternal' sits on the throne in heaven. The 'King of kings' is the only God
in the scripture.
1 Timothy 6
15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign,
the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in
unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion!
So who is this 'King of kings'? This King is the only Sovereign ruler!
Revelation 19:16
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written,
“KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
There is only one 'King' on the throne in heaven Judge not, and His name is 'King of kings'.
You might need to examine the identity of the 'King'. Here are some verses which should
reveal whom this 'King' is.
1 Timothy 6
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our
Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed
and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality
and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and
eternal dominion! Amen.
You should by now be realizing that Jesus is the 'King' who sits on the throne in heaven.
For the Father granted the Son the name above all the names that can be uttered.
Jesus is the King of heaven and earth, Jesus created all these things Judge not.
These regions were created for the Son and for the Son's Glory. Jesus rules over these
kingdoms and sits on the throne in heaven as the one and only 'King of Kings'.
As I said before Judge not, there is only one eternal, immortal, invisible KING of heaven
and earth. One sovereign ruler and on His head are many crowns! All the Glory is given
to this King and belongs to no other.
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in Rev 21:22 -we are looking at the New Jerusalem now on earth- " and i saw no temple therein for the Lord God Almighty (the Father) and the Lamb (Christ) are the temple of it ". And the city didn't need the sun..for the Glory of God (the Father) did lighten it and the Lamb (Christ) is the light thereof "
Rev 22:1, and Rev 22:3 shows the sharing of the Throne.
Before the creation of the universe (a physical undertaking ) was the Throne of God in Heaven-the spiritual realm.
Jesus shared it then sitting on God;s right side.
God the Father was always superior to the Son. He was the Father of the King of Kings. Jesus was responsible for preparing the Kingdom on earth for us and the Father.That was fulfilled in Rev 21- 3 - " and God Himself (the Father and Son, you don't see that type of reference in the Bible) shall be with them...."
Jesus took His orders only from the Father -John 15:26
remember the Father is the one that calls us to be in His Kingdom-John 6:44
Jesus carries out the Father's orders-John 5:30
The Father is greater than Jesus - John 14;28
In revelation 22:verse5- " they (plural) shall reign forever and ever"
The Kingdom of Heaven where the Father and Son resided eternally before is now on the earth-the new earth-in the New Jerusalem on their thrones.
Then you believe in a Di-unity not a Tri-unity and are therefore not a Christian.
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B-A-C
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John 4:24; "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
2 Cor 3:17; Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Is the Holy Spirit just some force, or is it a being with feelings and emotions?
Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
John 14:17; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:26; "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26; "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:13; "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
The Holy Spirit is indeed it's own entity, with it's own personality. A part of God with His unique role. My Bible always says "He" or "Him", never "it".
The Father can speak to us, Jesus obviously spoke to people on the earth (and still does as our mediator) and the Holy Spirit can speak to people.
Acts 8:29; Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
Acts 10:19; While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you.
1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Rom 8:16; The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:26; In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
The Holy Spirit is a self "himself" with his own consciousness and identity.
Be very careful what you say about the Holy Spirit.
Mark 3:29; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--
2 Cor 3:17; Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Is the Holy Spirit just some force, or is it a being with feelings and emotions?
Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
John 14:17; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:26; "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26; "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:13; "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
The Holy Spirit is indeed it's own entity, with it's own personality. A part of God with His unique role. My Bible always says "He" or "Him", never "it".
The Father can speak to us, Jesus obviously spoke to people on the earth (and still does as our mediator) and the Holy Spirit can speak to people.
Acts 8:29; Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
Acts 10:19; While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you.
1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Rom 8:16; The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:26; In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
The Holy Spirit is a self "himself" with his own consciousness and identity.
Be very careful what you say about the Holy Spirit.
Mark 3:29; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--
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The word trinity is not even in the Bible
That is a belief that developed long after the disciples of Christ were around
New Testament passages speak of the Father and Son and do not mention the Holy Spirit for obvious reasons. The writers of the NT did not think of the Holy Spirit as the third person of a trinity
The Apostles addressed the Father and the Son-there was always a duality of the Godhead. As mentioned before the power and mind or character of God is represented by the Holy Spirits.
Would you claim the Apostles are not Christian then?
B-A-C
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The Hebrews of the Old Testament were familiar with the Holy Spirit.
Psa 51:11; Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Isa 63:10; But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.
Isa 63:11; Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses. Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,
The Holy Spirit is mentioned 92 times in the New Testament. The new testament was written by the apostles.
When Jesus was on the earth, the Holy Spirit had not come yet. John 16:7; John 7:39;
After Acts 2, the Holy Spirit is mentioned 23 times in Pauls letters alone.
It's also mentioned in 1st and 2nd Peter as well as James.
Were Peter, James and John Apostles? Were they Christians?
DHC
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Hello Judge not.
There is a fundamental problem in the way that you understand the incarnation of the Christ.
You read that the man, Christ Jesus, said the following about His relationship with His Father.
John 14:28
You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would
have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Yes Judge not, Jesus did say the Father is greater while Jesus walked amongst us.
There is no argument that while Jesus was flesh and blood as we are, that Jesus was fully
subservient to His Father. Yet we also read that Jesus was even lower than the angels.
This is also true, Jesus could have easily have also said, 'even angels are greater than I'.
For the angels were higher than the incarnated Christ.
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus,
So Jesus occupied a rank in the heiarchy below the Father and also below the angels.
Jesus in human form was at the bottom of the heirarchy beneath even angels.
Once again Judge not, this self imposed limitation was only for a short time period.
For we can easily see in the letter to the Hebrews the phrase 'for a little while lower'.
Thus we know that Jesus was only lower than the angels during His life in the flesh.
Here is the problem that you face Judge not. If Jesus in the flesh was lower than the
angels, then what position does Jesus occupy after He returns to the Father?
On returning to the Father we can read that Jesus is worshiped by the angles.
Hebrews 1:6
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
We know that the angels will only worship one who is higher than they are. There is
only one position higher than the angels in heaven, Judge not. For the scripture in
Revelations also states.
Revelation 7:11
And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the
four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God.
Angels will only ever worship God, yet the angels worship Jesus Christ. So we have the
unavoidable conclusion that Jesus Christ is God. The angels are not worshiping
multiple Gods for that is idolatry. The Hebrews were monotheistic, the Hebrews had
but only one God in heaven that they worshiped. This is also true of the angels, they
only worshiped the one God of heaven and earth, the one on the throne.
Luke 4:8
Jesus answered him, It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’
The angels are not permitted to 'worship' anyone but God Himself (singular).
Jesus stated 'serve Him only', this means there is only one God that may be worshiped.
Jesus did not say worship and 'serve them only'. The words 'Him' and 'only' means
there is but one God, and singular (Him). Therefore the angels cannot and would not
worship any other than this singular, individual God (Him).
Therefore Judge not, your interpretation that Jesus is somehow a lesser God or
somehow inferior to the one that sits on the throne must be incorrect.
May I also add the following verse Judge not.
John 5:18
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because
He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making
Himself equal with God.
Jesus was not only equal to His Father in heaven, Jesus was worshiped in heaven by the angels.
Worship Him (singular) and serve Him (singular) only, Jesus said this judge not.
Anyone that worships anyone other than 'Him alone' belongs in the lake of fire.
If anyone worships anyone other than Him (singular) is disobedient to Him (singular).
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The matter of the Trinity was resolved by the Church established and founded by the apostles and Jesus Christ, in 325 and 385 AD. All genuine Christians who are led by the Spirit will believe in the Trinity as defined by the Nicene creed. Firstly because the Holy Spirit testifies to the truth and Scripture teaches it, and secondly, because God's authority on Earth, the Church, testifies to the truth. To reject the Trinity is to reject both the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the authority of the Church.
The Trinity is clear in these verses:
Matt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
2 Cor 13:13/14 - "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
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In John 4:21 - "...but the hour is coming and now is when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth.....'
The Father and the Son are equal in the sense that they are of the same kind, or family but functionally the Father has always been the Head of Christ.
Before becoming flesh and blood God the Father was the creator-the architect so to speak and the Word made everything-the contractor so to speak.
The Hebrews did not realize that the God they worshiped in the OT was none other than the Son-Christ. We know in scripture God the Father was never seen or heard
in the OT only the Son who was the spokesperson for God the Father.
I posted an answer to this but it never made it up on the screen.
So in recap of my response again:
The Bible is the sole authority of doctrine-just reading that the issue of the trinity was in contention for hundreds of years after the apostolic church shows there was conflict. The question of a trinity would have been foreign to those that wrote the gospels and epistles
Matt 28:19-Baptism is performed in recognition of the Father's authority, which is administered by the Son and confirmed by the reception of the HS
As we have seen the HS is the power and spiritual essence of God (both Father and Son )
2 Cor 13:13,14 - fellowship means " to share in " the verse is usually rendered " and the sharing in of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.
God shares His Spirit with His people and we are united with God through the Spirit.
As we have seen in all the epistles Paul repeatedly failing to include the Holy Spirit in his opening statements and salutations casts great doubt upon the interpretation or assumption that the Apostle was Trinitarian
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DHC
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Hello Judge not.
Could you please expand on the following point that you made.
I need the scriptures that states that the Father has always been 'the Head of Christ'.
Not the scriptures that talk about the incarnate Christ and His humility before His Father.
But the distant past and His subordination. Also can you explain what you mean by
the same 'kind' or 'family'.
Rev T.S.Perkins
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Ive found that when Christ speaks the condition of you're heart is revealed . They didnt get it because they couldn't see past thier own religious crust and wisdom in the physical ...we can fall to the same thing ! ....Rev
The Bible did not canonize itself. People had to decide what books should be included, which were true and which were false. This authority which canonized the Bible, was the same authority which declared the Trinity to be the correct understanding of the nature of God, and all others to be heresies. So the Bible is not the sole authority of doctrine, because another higher authority canonized the Bible, and distinguished between true and false doctrine, to give us the Bible that we have today.This higher authority gave us the doctrine of the Trinity, and even though the word Trinity is not in the Bible, it doesn't have to be, because the doctrine was founded by the authority that God gave to the Church. The Bible was completed (canonized) in 393 AD, about the same time as the Trinity. So by rejecting the Trinity because it was hundreds of years after the apostles, you must also, by association, reject the Bible which was canonized around the same time. The Bible itself is Trinitarian.
The Spirit is a person as proved by Acts 13:2 where the Spirit said "me". Grammatically, every pronoun used in reference to the Spirit is "He", not "it".
Ephesians 4:30 - the Spirit can be grieved. We cannot grieve a power or force.
1 Cor 12:11 - the Spirit has a will. A power or force does not have a will.
The Spirit can be lied to - Acts 5:3-4. We cannot lie to a power or force.
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You left out a few that connotes personality like testifies, reproves and even speaks.
The Holy Spirit appears to have the attributes of a person like in Acts 13:2 and Acts 5:3 and so on.
All of these scriptures must be understood with the use of personification in the scriptures
Proverbs 8 for example shows " wisdom " as a " she " -but wisdom here is God's own wisdom.
The Holy Spirit is the personification of God's power, love, wisdom and activity.
Pronouns like she, he, and him are used frequently.
we use it in our own lives when we might refer to our car as she or the weather-the wind she's a blowing.
Psalm 51-God places His Spirit on people
Mary is impregnated by the Spirit of God Matt 1
Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit-did He ever refer to the HS as His Father?
why doesn't Paul address the 3rd person in a trinity form since He was the author of much of the theology in the NT?
the HS is the Spiritual presence and influence of God in our natural physical world.
Since Jesus and the Apostles never taught the concept of a trinity the idea was argued and imposed hundreds of years after the scriptures were written by the
inspiration from God.
The theory of God's nature being composed of three distinct person was a man made opinion orchestrated by many who were non-believers and raised in
the philosophy of the Greeks. The trinity even has its origins in some pagan religions.
Since the trinity thought is not founded in the Bible, why would we want to believe man's speculation and edicts over God's revealed truth?
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Sorry for the delay DHC, after this I will be off until Saturday.
I found 1Cor 11:3 shows " the Head of Christ is GOD "
In 1 Cor 15:24-28 - In God's Kingdom we will be subject to Christ, except the Father.
In Heb 1:3 -after Jesus died and was restored to eternal life as it was before He became human, He took His place as before at the right hand of the
majesty on high (the Father )
Christ's equality with the Father is in the sense of sharing the same level of existence, both of them being deity.but not equal in authority.
jn
Personification in the Bible is only of inanimate or dead things, such as wisdom, sin, the nation of Israel, riches, and death.
When you say something is personified, you are saying that thing is actually a dead, inanimate thing.
When you say the Spirit is a personification of power and love, you are saying that the power and love the Spirit personifies, is actually dead, inanimate things.
But the Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of life (Rom 8:2) and living water (John 4:14).
The Spirit and power of the Spirit is a living and moving entity (Gen 1:2) and is therefore not a personification.
There are a number of characteristics ascribed to the Holy Spirit that go beyond mere personification of inanimate things. These are emotions, the ability to intercede, to search, to choose, to exercise free will, and to be worshipped.
Further proof that the Spirit is a person, is that God is Spirit (John 4:23-24). So by claiming that the Spirit is not a person, you are also saying that God is not a person.
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Spirit is not physical matter, so it is necessary to use words which describe physical things in order to understand spiritual things.
Spirit is the invisible divine power which is inherent in God. It emanates from Him to do whatever He commands.
If God would allow you to appear before His throne in heaven you would see the Father, the Son, and different spiritual creatures like cherubims, or angels.
But you would not see the Holy Spirit. It dwells within God just as it would dwell within you after conversion.
The symbolism or personifications that you speak of are used by God to describe His power and character and infinite love.
Scripture is inspired by God. God's spirit moved the writers to illustrate the mind and life of God. So God is the author of the methods to reveal Himself to us through them so we can appreciate the magnitude and value of His truths.
Personification is often used to emphasize a point, and symbols help portray things in a way we can relate to.
I'm sure God wouldn't allow anything that was derogatory to His righteousness to be part of His Holy Scriptures.He has given to mankind.
I'm off the net until Saturday and will respond if necessary at that time.
There is a lot more to this whole issue.
jn
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To the basic question.
[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV] 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
If miracles did not move them why would His words have?
The question becomes if the nation of Israeli had believed, would salvation had been accessible to the gentile as well?
Now that I've found the post I'll look at the rest of it
YBIC
C4E
