Why does God send people to hell?

[th1bill]

Please don't tell me you are one of those who believes that no contradictions exist within the New Testament texts whatsoever. Or that truth shifts depending upon which way the wind blows....

I'd be happy to entertain whatever arguments you have that the Synoptic Gospels show (prove?) that the Apostle John was the author of the Gospel named John. However, as I've shown, the Gospel named John itself shows the author to be Lazarus. But it's a bit surreal that the extraordinary account of raising Lazarus from the dead would have been completely missed by Matthew, and Mark, and Luke.

But if none of this bothers you, hey, dance the night away.

Rhema

I served at Dau Tieng, Vietnam, during the March attack by the NVA and VC. I was the Crew Chief on the First Flare Mission that night. There were perhaps a thousand men defending the base that night, and all of us agree on some points but disagree on some points, and on the importance of the facts. If I and the other three men on 806 that night were to tell the same story with the same emphasis, it would be a certain indicator of collusion and lies. The same would be true of the Gospels.

 

[Rhema]

So, according to the Gospel of John that you use to make your case for the authorship of The Gospel of John as being Lazarus because he was "The one whom Jesus loved", he would have had to be present at the Passover Meal.

This is based upon the conjecture that the meal described in "John" was the same Passover Meal as described in Mat. Mark and Luke.

But note the timeline in John:

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;​

- John 13:1-2 KJV

He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.​

- John 13:4 KJV

(Foot-washing Ritual ensues)

When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.​

- John 13:21-24 KJV

Please note that this is the SAME supper having started in verse one that took place BEFORE the Passover. This is Not the Passover meal.

Now before the feast of the passover, ...​

- John 13:1 KJV

If (as "John" does) there is an event recorded "before the feast of the Passover" (a DIRECT quote), then how can one take information from other accounts about events that happened DURING a Passover meal and shoehorn them into another story?

That's dishonest.

Shall we be dishonest? Let me know.
Rhema
Look, Judas departed during this supper according to the account of "John."

He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.​

- John 13:30 KJV

But "John" states that the disciples did not know why Judas left, and listed two of their conjectures.

For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.​

- John 13:29 KJV

Now are those people so stupid as to think that Jesus sent Judas to buy things needed for the feast of the Passover Meal if they had just finished eating the Passover meal? I don't think so. So whatever supper is recorded in John 13, it is not the same supper as that recorded in Mat. Mark and Luke where Communion is established.

(And that's why there is no wine and bread in "John.")

Now before the feast of the passover, ...​

- John 13:1 KJV

I'm not asking you to draw conclusions, I'm asking you to acknowledge what is actually written... that this supper took place Before Passover.

Thanks.

 

[Rhema]

I believe that...

All well and good, but I don't believe that's what the texts say.

The word, 'ALL' can mean one of two things,: either 'all' without exception, or 'all' without distinction. Such as in John 12:32. 'I if I be lifted up from the earth (i.e., in crucifixion) will draw all men unto Me'. If this means 'all without exception', then it is not true, for all men have not been drawn unto Him. It must therefore mean, 'all without distinction'.

An interesting conjecture. But the word recorded is the Greek word PAS.

I provide for you a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G3956 πᾶς

I. when plural, all,​

II. singular, all, the whole​

III. every​

2. less freq., any one​

I don't find the distinction you provided to be applicable to the Greek word πᾶς.

Your example in John 12:32 rather depends upon what Jesus meant by "draw unto me." And I don't see this phrase to be equivalent to "save all people."

LINK to Liddell Scott for "draw" (G1670 ἕλκω)

A 7. lift up​

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will lift up all men unto me.​

- John 12:32 KJV

Those who lift up Jesus, shall be lifted up.

if in this world a man is innocent until proven guilty, and is given the right, in a court of law, to make his case,

Echos of the ghost of Calvinism, the lawyer who could only see things within the human (HUMAN) framework of Law.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove (Prove the world Wrong) about sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:​

- John 16:7-8

Human ideas of Righteousness and Human ideas of Judgment should never in any wise be placed upon the Most High.

Kind regards,
Rhema

O LORD our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but we acknowledge your name alone. The dead do not live; shades do not rise—because you have punished and destroyed them, and wiped out all memory of them. But you have increased the nation, O LORD, you have increased the nation; you are glorified; you have enlarged all the borders of the land. O LORD, in distress they sought you, they poured out a prayer when your chastening was on them. Like a woman with child, who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near her time, so were we because of you, O LORD; we were with child, we writhed, but we gave birth only to wind. We have won no victories on earth, and no one is born to inhabit the world. Your dead shall live, their corpses shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a radiant dew, and the earth will give birth to those long dead.​

- Isaiah 26:13-19 NRSV

 

[Rhema]

I served at Dau Tieng, Vietnam, during the March attack by the NVA and VC. I was the Crew Chief on the First Flare Mission that night.

Well good for you. I'm sure God will forgive you if you ask.

If I and the other three men on 806 that night were to tell the same story with the same emphasis, it would be a certain indicator of collusion and lies.

But would any of those men be inspired by the Holy Spirit?

The same would be true of the Gospels.

So the Gospels are not inspired by the Holy Spirit then.

(Or does inspiration NOT rule out error?)

Would God inspire someone to write an erroneous account?

Thanks anyway,
Rhema

 

[Garee]

Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29, Acts 23:6-8 & 24:15, 1 Cor. 15:22, Rev. 20:4-6 & 13

Hello there, @Rhema,

At the present moment I have no other references to give you, but if I find anything further I shall come back to you: Though if you need the words, 'All men shall rise again', in order to believe that they will, then you have a problem.
The word, 'ALL' can mean one of two things,: either 'all' without exception, or 'all' without distinction. Such as in John 12:32. 'I if I be lifted up from the earth (i.e., in crucifixion) will draw all men unto Me'. If this means 'all without exception', then it is not true, for all men have not been drawn unto Him. It must therefore mean, 'all without distinction'.

The only way to determine whether all are raised. is by comparing scripture with scripture, reading all reference to the dead, in association with resurrection, within their context, and looking at the facts, presented in their entirety: for we have no evidence to present from experience or historical records.

I believe that apart from that one exception in Isaiah 26:13-14, in which we are told that those referenced would not be raised, having received the full punishment of God already, and perished accordingly: all will be raised; some to life eternal, and others to judgment. For God is just, and righteous, and does all in accordance with justice and righteousness: so if in this world a man is innocent until proven guilty, and is given the right, in a court of law, to make his case, before a judgment is made, and possible sentence imposed. Then I would expect nothing less of God Himself. Human reasoning, and flawed this is, but the best I have.​

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I would think with distinction. . as many as. . .the key

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them (alone) gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

As many as denotes a parable is in view

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Thousand years compared to a day the unknown, not revealed, invisible things of "Let it be faithfully good" as it was
:

 

[Christ4Ever]

So, according to the Gospel of John that you use to make your case for the authorship of The Gospel of John as being Lazarus because he was "The one whom Jesus loved", he would have had to be present at the Passover Meal.

This is based upon the conjecture that the meal described in "John" was the same Passover Meal as described in Mat. Mark and Luke.

Why are you playing the fool here? For clearly in reading each account of the Passover Meal you know it is the telling of the last meal that Jesus partook with them prior to being arrested.

You call it dishonest, shame. If you had kept reading to [Jhn 18:1 KJV] 1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples. You would find that everything from John 13:1 in which you found Jesus' conversation with the disciples were one and the same.

Did you consider this as being but one event/conversation from John Chapter 13 - 18?

That's dishonest.

Shall we be dishonest? Let me know.

Dishonest would be if one ignored that it was one conversation that Jesus was having with His disciples as recorded in Gospel of John, prior to his arrest during the Passover Meal otherwise according to John's Gospel the Passover Meal never happened.

As you well know the chapter nbr. and verse nbr. were added much letter so that scholars could make reference points via correspondence a lot easier, and not the original letter form that we would have seen if we had the original autographs. One account, one Passover Meal in all 4 accounts.

I'm not asking you to draw conclusions, I'm asking you to acknowledge what is actually written... that this supper took place Before Passover.

I am also asking you to acknowledge what is written, but to include it all and not be partial in your selection to be considered, and that this was the Passover Meal. Many things can happen at once during an event that was detailed 4 different times, and which can all be true though different nuances are used by different writers.

Brother @th1bill in post #561 speaks to how this happens, which I am sure you know.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator/YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[th1bill]

Well good for you. I'm sure God will forgive you if you ask.


But would any of those men be inspired by the Holy Spirit?


So the Gospels are not inspired by the Holy Spirit then.

(Or does inspiration NOT rule out error?)

Would God inspire someone to write an erroneous account?

Thanks anyway,
Rhema

And you have yet to demonstrate this imaginary error.

 

[th1bill]

Rhema, you consider yourself to be smart, yet you seem not to know the subject title of this thread?

 

[Garee]

What 'usage' & 'outcome' are you referring to, Garee?

* The Pharsees believed it was possible for the dead to communicate with the living, which is not Scriptural. That was one of the hypocrisies of the Pharisaic doctrine that our Lord sought to expose in the story of, 'The Rich Man and Lazarus'.

* The dead cannot communicate, for they are devoid of all means to do so, the brain being dead.

Yes, neither Jonas in the 3 days and nights demonstration nor in the companion parable 3 days and nights Jesus the Son of man died The Son of man Jesus was wounded for our transgression the Holy Father bruised his heel .Not dead never to rise

I would suggest the outcome in Isaiah 8: teaching us God does not speak to the dead through necromancy or today called patron saints. and Greek Orthodox .

In that way Christ protects the integrity the law and its glorious outcome or testimony the prophets "sola scriptura"

Isaiah 819 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the(outcome) testimony: if they speak not according to this word,(sola scriptura) it is because there is no light in them.

They seek unto their gods familiar spirits for the dead as if still living . A living hell, no God no savor,no salvation

 

[complete]

I would think with distinction. . as many as. . .the key

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them (alone) gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

As many as denotes a parable is in view

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Thousand years compared to a day the unknown, not revealed, invisible things of "Let it be faithfully good" as it was
:

Hello @Garee,

Are you saying that you believe that the words, 'as many as', is the key to who will be raised? In the case of John 1:12, it is, 'as many as received him'. So you believe that only those within that category will be raised. Is this correct? I can't understand what you have said concerning 2 Peter 3:8 unfortunately.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

I served at Dau Tieng, Vietnam, during the March attack by the NVA and VC. I was the Crew Chief on the First Flare Mission that night. There were perhaps a thousand men defending the base that night, and all of us agree on some points but disagree on some points, and on the importance of the facts. If I and the other three men on 806 that night were to tell the same story with the same emphasis, it would be a certain indicator of collusion and lies. The same would be true of the Gospels.

Hello @th1bill,

Oh my, I'm sorry you had to endure such a horrible war!

I now see, after a second reading, what you mean concerning the four gospels. They differ in content, but that, in itself, is an indication of their truthfulness.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Ref:- reply#517 - Rhema​

​

'Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, ​

in the which all that are in the graves ​

shall hear His voice, And shall come forth; ​

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; ​

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.'​

(Joh 5:28-29)​

​

Hello @Rhema,​

​

@B-A-C quoted this verse, to which you made response. Believing that not all men will be raised (see below). I thanked you for the information you had referenced, and said I would return and reply to you on this.​

'O LORD our God, ​

other lords beside Thee have had dominion over us:​

but by Thee only will we make mention of Thy Name.​

They are dead, they shall not live; ​

they are deceased, they shall not rise: ​

therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, ​

and made all their memory to perish.'​

(Isa 26:13-14)​

​

The verses I quote above refer to those who, 'shall not rise', but this is referring to the Canaanite oppressors of Israel and their false gods. 'They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise' . These are not dead MEN as such, for ALL men shall rise again (Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29, Acts 23:6-8 & 24:15, 1 Cor. 15:22, Rev. 20:4-6 & 13). These Canaanites are the 'Rephaim' (i,e., 'giants' or 'dead') (see Isaiah 26:19, Job 26:5, Psa. 88:10, Pro. 2:18, 9:18, 21:16, Isa. 14:9). Rephaim is the name of a city (Isa. 17:5), so called after one 'Rapha', a mighty one among the descendants of the Nephilim, as Anak was, who gave his name to another branch. They shall not rise. They were the progeny of the fallen angels; these latter are kept 'in prison' (1Pet.3:19), in 'chains' (2Pet. 2:4 & Jude 6), 'reserved' unto judgment; but their progeny will 'not rise' (Isa.26: 14 & 19) or be judged, for they have been 'visited', 'destroyed', and 'perished'. - ( Ref:- marginal notes from 'The Companion Bible')​

​

The Sons of God in Gen. 6:2, 4. - Appendix to the Companion Bible

​

The Nephilim, or Giants of Gen. 6, &c. - Appendix to the Companion Bible

​

​

Thank you​

In Christ Jesus​

Chris​

​

​

Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29, Acts 23:6-8 & 24:15, 1 Cor. 15:22, Rev. 20:4-6 & 13

Hello there, @Rhema,

At the present moment I have no other references to give you, but if I find anything further I shall come back to you: Though if you need the words, 'All men shall rise again', in order to believe that they will, then you have a problem.

The word, 'ALL' can mean one of two things,: either 'all' without exception, or 'all' without distinction. Such as in John 12:32. 'I if I be lifted up from the earth (i.e., in crucifixion) will draw all men unto Me'. If this means 'all without exception', then it is not true, for all men have not been drawn unto Him. It must therefore mean, 'all without distinction'.

The only way to determine whether all are raised. is by comparing scripture with scripture, reading all reference to the dead, in association with resurrection, within their context, and looking at the facts, presented in their entirety: for we have no evidence to present from experience or historical records.

I believe that apart from that one exception in Isaiah 26:13-14, in which we are told that those referenced would not be raised, having received the full punishment of God already, and perished accordingly: all will be raised; some to life eternal, and others to judgment. For God is just, and righteous, and does all in accordance with justice and righteousness: so if in this world a man is innocent until proven guilty, and is given the right, in a court of law, to make his case, before a judgment is made, and possible sentence imposed. Then I would expect nothing less of God Himself. Human reasoning, and flawed this is, but the best I have.​

​

Thank you​

In Christ Jesus​

Chris​

All well and good, but I don't believe that's what the texts say.​

​

An interesting conjecture. But the word recorded is the Greek word PAS.​

​

I provide for you a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G3956 πᾶς​

I. when plural, all,​

II. singular, all, the whole​

III. every​

2. less freq., any one​

​

I don't find the distinction you provided to be applicable to the Greek word πᾶς.​

​

Your example in John 12:32 rather depends upon what Jesus meant by "draw unto me." And I don't see this phrase to be equivalent to "save all people."​

​

LINK to Liddell Scott for "draw" (G1670 ἕλκω)​

A 7. lift up​

​

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will lift up all men unto me.​

- John 12:32 KJV​

​

Those who lift up Jesus, shall be lifted up.

Subject Heading:- 'Why Does God Send People To Hell?'

'Now is the judgment of this world:
now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
will draw all men unto Me.
This He said, signifying what death He should die.'
(Joh 12:31-33)

Hi @Rhema,

You believe that NOT all shall be raised to judgment at the end of this age: What reason do you have for being that?

The Lord has been, 'lifted up', on the cross.That is what the verse (above) is alluding to, as the words following indicate: not, as you said, that (quote) 'those who lift up Jesus, shall be lifted up.'

Echos of the ghost of Calvinism, the lawyer who could only see things within the human (HUMAN) framework of Law.​

​

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove (Prove the world Wrong) about sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:​

- John 16:7-8​

​

Human ideas of Righteousness and Human ideas of Judgment should never in any wise be placed upon the Most High.​

​

Kind regards,​

Rhema​

* I agree that God's righteousness is incomparable.

​

O LORD our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but we acknowledge your name alone. The dead do not live; shades do not rise—because you have punished and destroyed them, and wiped out all memory of them. But you have increased the nation, O LORD, you have increased the nation; you are glorified; you have enlarged all the borders of the land. O LORD, in distress they sought you, they poured out a prayer when your chastening was on them. Like a woman with child, who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near her time, so were we because of you, O LORD; we were with child, we writhed, but we gave birth only to wind. We have won no victories on earth, and no one is born to inhabit the world. Your dead shall live, their corpses shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a radiant dew, and the earth will give birth to those long dead.​

- Isaiah 26:13-19 NRSV​

'O LORD our God, other lords beside Thee have had dominion over us:
but by thee only will we make mention of Thy Name.
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise:
therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
.. Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD,
.... Thou hast increased the nation:
...... Thou art glorified:
........ Thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.
LORD, in trouble have they visited Thee,
they poured out a prayer when Thy chastening was upon them.
Like as a woman with child,
that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs;
so have we been in Thy sight, O LORD.
We have been with child,
we have been in pain,
we have as it were brought forth wind;
we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth;
neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
.. Thy dead men shall live,
.... together with my dead body shall they arise.
Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:
for thy dew is as the dew of herbs,
and the earth shall cast out the dead.'
(Isa 26:13-19)

* This reminds me of the fact that those who die, 'in Christ', are reckoned by God to be, 'asleep in Christ', awaiting resurrection to life eternal: but not so those who have died in their sins, who have not believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and had their sins forgiven; They are spoken of as. 'the dead,' for they do not have the hope of life eternal, but only of judgment, and the second death as a prospect.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hello there,

I think this subject heading,' Why does God send people to Hell?' is horrible, untrue, and should not grace the forum with it's presence. For man dies and goes to the grave, or grave-dom, the place of the dead, not to a place of eternal conscious punishment as man has devised in their imagination. Man is raised to judgment, with the prospect of the second death, having been judged justly and righteously, by God, who knows the secrets of men's hearts, and can therefore judge justly.

For the believer, who has placed his trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, there is no condemnation, and they have the hope of life, in Christ Jesus their Lord.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

'For if God spared not the angels that sinned,
but cast them down to hell, (Tartaroo - only occurence)
and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgment;
And spared not the old world,
but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness,
bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes
condemned them with an overthrow,
making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing,
vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds )
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations,
and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:'
(2Pet. 2:4-9)

* Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus are the words translated 'Hell'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Rhema]

Why are you playing the fool here? For clearly in reading each account of the Passover Meal you know it is the telling of the last meal that Jesus partook with them prior to being arrested.

Who is the fool? The one who actually reads what is written? Or the one who ignores what is actually written?

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end and supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;​

- John 13:1-2 KJV

The supper described in John is BEFORE the feast of the Passover. The text LITERALLY states BEFORE (See above - I even colorized it for you and everything.)

in John, Jesus does not eat the Passover meal. He is crucified at the same time the Passover lambs are killed in preparation to eat the Passover. One cannot eat the Passover if one is dead.

Then led they (the Jewish Temple Guard) Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.​

- John 18:28 KJV

These "They" had not yet eaten the Passover meal.

There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.​

- John 19:42 KJV

This is typically understood to be the preparation day for the Passover meal.

One account, one Passover Meal in all 4 accounts.

Conjecture. And yes, dishonest conjecture.

Judas departed during this supper according to the account of "John."

He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.​

- John 13:30 KJV

But "John" states that the disciples did not know why Judas left, and listed two of their conjectures.

For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.​

- John 13:29 KJV

Now BE HONEST AND DEAL WITH THIS PART OF MY POST --

Are the disciples so stupid as to think that Jesus sent Judas to buy things needed for the feast of the Passover Meal if they had just finished eating the Passover meal? I don't think so. If, as you claim, they had finished eating the Passover, why would anybody ever even think that Jesus sent Judas to buy things needed for the feast which they had just finished? Such a thought would not enter any rational person's head.

So whatever supper is recorded in John 13, it is not the same supper as that recorded in Mat. Mark and Luke where Communion is established.

I'd suggest you ask your pastor about this and see what kind of story he tells you.

Rhema

Did you consider this as being but one event/conversation from John Chapter 13 - 18?

Of course it is. And while Mat. Mark and Luke have Jesus eating the Passover, John does not.

For clearly in reading each account of the Passover Meal you know it is the telling of the last meal that Jesus partook with them prior to being arrested.

No. The meal in "John" was BEFORE the feast of the Passover.

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.​

- John 13:1 KJV

As you well know the chapter nbr. and verse nbr. were added much letter so that scholars could make reference points via correspondence a lot easier,

This is completely irrelevant to my post. Completely. So why the Red Herring?

I am also asking you to acknowledge what is written, but to include it all and not be partial in your selection to be considered, and that this was the Passover Meal. Many things can happen at once during an event that was detailed 4 different times, and which can all be true though different nuances are used by different writers.

No. You're asking me to erase the word BEFORE so that you can feel better about the accounts. NO. I WILL NOT ERASE SCRIPTURE (and you speak to ME about shame?)

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end and supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;​

- John 13:1-2 KJV

Before means BEFORE - Prior to.... Not during. Not after.

Brother @th1bill in post #561 speaks to how this happens, which I am sure you know.

So then the inspiration of the Holy Spirit also means nothing to you with regards to accuracy... Got it.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema, you consider yourself to be smart, yet you seem not to know the subject title of this thread?

Cool your jets, you grouch. I know quite well what the Title of the Thread is, but I followed the lead of a MODERATOR.

Now if Nick wishes to spin off this rabbit trail into a new thread he is quite welcome to do so. But I won't be bullied by you into silence over a useless minutia.

 

[Rhema]

They differ in content, but that, in itself, is an indication of their truthfulness.

NOT IF THEY CONTRADICT EACH OTHER.

The Gospel of John has Jesus dead and buried before the Passover Meal was eaten. Period.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Why are you playing the fool here? For clearly in reading each account of the Passover Meal you know it is the telling of the last meal that Jesus partook with them prior to being arrested.

Who is the fool? The one who actually reads what is written? Or the one who ignores what is actually written?

The one who holds back the positions they hold in order to make a point.

If you had only stated beforehand that you believe that the only true Gospel is of John or that they are all lies, we would not be having this discussion. For I certainty would not have brought as evidence the other Gospels which refute the position you hold and believe to be true.

With that being said, the rest then becomes inconsequential to any discussion concern the belief in the authorship of the Gospel of John in being Lazarus. I would not have cared, because your foundation for believing so with the limited data you allowed to be part of your reasoning, made sure of that. So, I would have left you to your own devices.

Sadly, it is you who have wasted my time, and if your time was wasted you have only yourself to blame.

I state this because you acknowledge that in John, the Passover Meal never happened with the 12 disciples, but instead a prior meal, which does not go in accord with the other 3 gospels. I state that it is not just unrecorded in John, but that it did not happen because it progresses from this prior meal, to then all of them going to the garden, and Jesus being arrested. It does not allow for a break. Thereby not allowing for any Passover Meal period and the other gospels a lie for stating that it did happen and not some prior Passover meal.

Because if you do your reasoning as you have done with the Gospel of John as a standalone, with the other 3 Gospels, they do reflect that the meal they talk about is the Passover meal and what happened therein.

Now I know you can be obnoxious, and that I've just about reached my limit with your inability to actually be helpful in resolving any dispute in an amicable fashion. So, please choose a number and I'll choose the length: 1, 2, 3. Week, Month, Year. So, when you prove me right, I won't have to communicate back and just institute the determined R&R period for you to undertake. You can just consider it a sabbatical. Oh, and I don't have to explain the why since you are reasonably intelligent and should be able to figure that out for yourself from our prior interactions or you'll prove me wrong, which is always a possibility.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator/YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. The word "before" does not speak to a specific time period which could be a matter of minutes, hours, days. It could just as easily have been prior to the start of the Passover Meal feast that I'm sure you know does cover more than one day, but it could just as easily mean that the meal had yet not started and not a completely different meal from what you are inferring with your posts. Otherwise, you'd have to identify what other feast would have been so close to Passover itself they'd have been having, and not just another meal that would not be a feast that also just happened to be right before the death of Jesus as recorded. k

 

[Garee]

Hello @Garee,

Are you saying that you believe that the words, 'as many as', is the key to who will be raised? In the case of John 1:12, it is, 'as many as received him'. So you believe that only those within that category will be raised. Is this correct? I can't understand what you have said concerning 2 Peter 3:8 unfortunately.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi thanks

Not a salvation issue more of. . . how we can hear God's Holy Spirit through parables, they are designed to enrich the understanding.

The signified tongue of prophecy using as a sign the temporal historical and must be mixed or compared to the unseen eternal.

In that way parables teach us how to walk by faith the unseen eternal things.

Very valuable recipe needed to rightly divide the parables. The invisible spiritual understnding hid from unbelievers designed for the household of faith. . Christ labor of love

2 Corinthians 4:18;While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

As many as denotes a parable is in view It is shown being used in other books

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told,yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The opening hermeneutics instruction. No only inspired but Signified it by his messenger again signify compare the temporal historical to the unseen eternal . Called Hidden manna in Rev 2:17 .

In that way it does not become a literal thousand years in the Revelation 20 parable

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The metaphor "thousand" an unknown no need to reveal faith issue

 

[Rhema]

The one who holds back the positions they hold in order to make a point.

Nick, this sentence doesn't make any sense. What is "holding back the positions" mean? What position is being held that is being "held back"? Yours? Mine? This is as clear as mud, friend.

If you had only stated beforehand that you believe that the only true Gospel is of John or that they are all lies, we would not be having this discussion.

And this is known as a false dilemma. You provide only two options, "the only true Gospel is that of John," and "they are are lies." NEITHER of which I believe.

I believe that within the Gospel named John, the author identifies himself as Lazarus, although in a very oblique manner. You had held that this could not be true because Lazarus was not present in the account of the last supper as presented in Mat. Mark and Luke. I refuted this position by showing that the "last supper" in John could not be the same, as the supper as described in "John" happened BEFORE the Passover, and that the disciples who thought that Judas was sent out to purchase items FOR the Passover meal were not stupid enough to think this if they had just finished the Passover meal.

I'm not the one trying to harmonize these accounts. I note (as would all honest people) that the accounts in the New Testament Gospels differ - and differ substantially enough to realize that supper described in Mat. Mark and Luke was the Passover, but that recounted in John was not.

This is not the only discrepancy in "John." I provide another as an example:

For I certainty would not have brought as evidence the other Gospels which refute the position you hold and believe to be true.

The other gospels do not refute the "position" I hold (namely that the Gospel named John identifies its author). UNLESS one assumes that all four record the same Passover meal eaten by the disciples.

I state this because you acknowledge that in John, the Passover Meal never happened with the 12 disciples, but instead a prior meal, which does not go in accord with the other 3 gospels.

This is the widely held view of Biblical Scholars, because they don't try and erase words from the account. I don't care what kind of emotional problems this triggers in you, but the text in John clearly states that the supper was BEFORED the feast of the Passover.

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;​

- John 13:1-2 KJV

P.S. The word "before" does not speak to a specific time period which could be a matter of minutes, hours, days.

Yes. Yes it does. The word "before" DOES speak to a specific time period. The time period is even stated.

before the feast of the passover, ... supper having ended.​

Can you at least be honest about that?

Rhema