Why don't you believe in the Rapture?

[Shaolin]

My point exactly. There can only be one LAST TRUMP!

Are you going to answer my post (#19)?

..

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Actually it says when He returns (after) the great tribulation. That is when He will gather up the elect.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

So it doesn't "only" address the 2nd coming. It addresses the "gathering up" (rapture).

Beautiful.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Again...you need to pay detailed attention to the words of the text...

You make the same mistake many others do here...Jesus says very clearly that He will send out His angels to gather His elect...note first that in the Rapture, angels are NOT said to gather those still alive - in the Rapture those of us who are walking with God and still alive will be TRANSLATED from flesh and blood into glorified spiritual bodies (I Cor. 15:52)...you need to pay attention to the words of the text. What Jesus is talking about here, is the gathering of the Jews who are still alive and scattered throughout the world. After the Great Tribulation, He gathers all of the elect Jews and brings them all to Jerusalem.

..

Thanks for sharing,

Listen to this, just listen and pause before you answer and notice if you can hear what I'm asking.

The verse you reference states:

"in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."
- 1 Corinthians 15:52

The verse that @B-A-C references states "

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

My question to both you @Shaolin and @B-A-C is notice how both of your verses mentions the sound of a trumpet. Is that the same trumpet being mentioned?
If Yes, does that change your interpretation of scripture, if that is not the same trumpet being mentioned in both of your verses, then are they 2 or more trumpets?

I'm aware of the 7 trumpets judgment in Revelation but I don't think that factors here unless it is speaking of the 7th and "last trumpet" which may be seen as the "great" trumpet,
but I don't think that applies here. In the 7 trumpet judgments they are numbered to show sequence, 1st, 2nd, 3rd....7th.

So are these two trumpets in the verses above the same trumpets being talked about in these two verses and if not, did Jesus talk about 2 (or more) trumpets to listen out for, if so where?

 

[Shaolin]

Thanks for sharing,

Listen to this, just listen and pause before you answer and notice if you can hear what I'm asking.

The verse you reference states:

"in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."
- 1 Corinthians 15:52

The verse that @B-A-C references states "

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

My question to both you @Shaolin and @B-A-C is notice how both of your verses mentions the sound of a trumpet. Is that the same trumpet being mentioned?
If Yes, does that change your interpretation of scripture, if that is not the same trumpet being mentioned in both of your verses, then are they 2 or more trumpets?

I'm aware of the 7 trumpets judgment in Revelation but I don't think that factors here unless it is speaking of the 7th and "last trumpet" which may be seen as the "great" trumpet,
but I don't think that applies here. In the 7 trumpet judgments they are numbered to show sequence, 1st, 2nd, 3rd....7th.

So are these two trumpets in the verses above the same trumpets being talked about in these two verses and if not, did Jesus talk about 2 (or more) trumpets to listen out for, if so where?

For my part, no, these are NOT the same trumpet blasts. As for the second question, we cannot limit ourselves to only what Jesus said on the subject, since Paul also talks about it several times in different letters.

..

 

[Shaolin]

Actually it says when He returns (after) the great tribulation. That is when He will gather up the elect.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

So it doesn't "only" address the 2nd coming. It addresses the "gathering up" (rapture).

I missed something earlier when addressing this post...there is a clear difference in the NT Scriptures between the Rapture (catching away) of the church, and Christ's Return...the two are NOT the same thing. Those who hold to a mid or post trib rapture confuse the two, and ignore a host of passages dealing with them (including OT passages).

..

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

For my part, no, these are NOT the same trumpet blasts. As for the second question, we cannot limit ourselves to only what Jesus said on the subject, since Paul also talks about it several times in different letters.

..

Thanks for the response brother.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”​

Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture cannot get past this fact. The dead in Christ rise FIRST, and that does not happen until the LAST DAY!

No reason to argue further. Peace

 

[Shaolin]

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”​

Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture cannot get past this fact. The dead in Christ rise FIRST, and that does not happen until the LAST DAY!

No reason to argue further. Peace

Excuse me for bursting your bubble or arrogance, but "the last day" is ONLY a phrase...what you need to produce are passages that tell you exactly what "last day" these passages address.

Is it the last day of the Gentiles?
Is it the last day of the era under the New Covenant?
Is it the last day of the Great Tribulation?
Is it the last day of the old earth before God re-creates it and makes the new earth?
Is it the last day of the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ?
Is it the last day after satan is released from the pit to go out and deceive the world again into the valley of Armageddon?

All you did was give a small piece of the "puzzle" and exclaim that "It is finished," when in fact, you have not given any real reason to not "argue further," and instead gave a false ideology that the Rapture is not pre-trib.

Aside from all that - this thread is NOT concerned with "when" it happens, only why some choose not to believe that it is a valid doctrine found in Scripture.

..

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Excuse me for bursting your bubble or arrogance, but "the last day" is ONLY a phrase...what you need to produce are passages that tell you exactly what "last day" these passages address.

Is it the last day of the Gentiles?
Is it the last day of the era under the New Covenant?
Is it the last day of the Great Tribulation?
Is it the last day of the old earth before God re-creates it and makes the new earth?
Is it the last day of the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ?
Is it the last day after satan is released from the pit to go out and deceive the world again into the valley of Armageddon?

All you did was give a small piece of the "puzzle" and exclaim that "It is finished," when in fact, you have not given any real reason to not "argue further," and instead gave a false ideology that the Rapture is not pre-trib.

Aside from all that - this thread is NOT concerned with "when" it happens, only why some choose not to believe that it is a valid doctrine found in Scripture.

..

If you reject the testimony of Jesus Christ, then who am I to convince you?

 

[Shaolin]

If you reject the testimony of Jesus Christ, then who am I to convince you?

LOL!!!

You demonstrate that you are a steward of no mystery...when you give only a part of the truth, then what you give is false teaching. Yes, Jesus talked about the last day, He used the phrase a total of 5 times with absolutely NO reference to the last day of what. Therefore, you don't know what you are talking about and evidently need to go learn Biblical hermeneutics so that you can learn how to read and interpret Scripture.

When you can show me what time frame (dispensation) the last day that He speaks of addresses, then...and ONLY then, will you have any kind of cogent argument for what you believe. Until then, the last day could be any last day of any of a number of eras...just like I showed you (which you blatantly ignored).

..

 

[Rhema]

The Incredible Cover Up

Exposing the Origins of Rapture Theories.

www.goodreads.com

The Great Rapture Hoax

Book by MacPherson, Dave

www.goodreads.com

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”​

Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture cannot get past this fact. The dead in Christ rise FIRST, and that does not happen until the LAST DAY!

No reason to argue further. Peace

The false doctrine of the rapture and the second coming being one event is false teaching....You keep overlapping the two. You said you were called to teach.....So teach the truth...not your fables

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

The Incredible Cover Up

Exposing the Origins of Rapture Theories.

www.goodreads.com

The Great Rapture Hoax

Book by MacPherson, Dave

www.goodreads.com

Rhema Are you suggesting people buy a book that contradicts the Word? You're wasting your breath on me....Thank you.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

The false doctrine of the rapture and the second coming being one event is false teaching....You keep overlapping the two. You said you were called to teach.....So teach the truth...not your fables

The dead in Christ rise first per the words of God. And the dead in Christ are not raised until the last day per the words of God.

Not hard to comprehend.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema Are you suggesting people buy a book that contradicts the Word? You're wasting your breath on me....Thank you.

It's only "the Word" as your interpretation. I am encouraging people to buy a book that shows the HISTORY of the development of this interpretation.

Go back and ask Martin Luther about the "rapture" and he'll stare at you like there's a tree growing out of your head.

Before the Brethren Church created the false doctrine of the rapture in the 1800's it didn't exist.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

It's only "the Word" as your interpretation. I am encouraging people to buy a book that shows the HISTORY of the development of this interpretation.

Go back and ask Martin Luther about the "rapture" and he'll stare at you like there's a tree growing out of your head.

Before the Brethren Church created the false doctrine of the rapture in the 1800's it didn't exist.

Thanks,
Rhema

It's only "the Word" as your interpretation. I am encouraging people to buy a book that shows the HISTORY of the development of this interpretation.

Go back and ask Martin Luther about the "rapture" and he'll stare at you like there's a tree growing out of your head.

Before the Brethren Church created the false doctrine of the rapture in the 1800's it didn't exist.

Thanks,
Rhema

My friend, there is the difference between us. I don't believe we should be "interpreting" the Word...Its already in English, or any other language needed, and God said exactly what He means....We have no need to adapt it to fit into our comfort zones...We have no need to adapt it to what WE want....Its up to us to line up with what God says and thats the end of it. No arguments needed. If we change Gods word to our own comfort zone instead of accepting what God says, we are actually guilty of rebellion. In addition....I don't have a pre 1800s bible....and it's written in my KJV that there is a rapture. I believe that, and not the ravings of some human with an attitude.

 

[Rhema]

My friend, there is the difference between us. I don't believe we should be "interpreting" the Word...Its already in English,

Indeed there is a difference between you and I. I happen to know the difference between interpretation and translation. And unless one has an adequate background in Koine Greek, one cannot see just how bad your "already in English" translations truly are. That said, even were one to read the initial Koine Greek texts, there STILL is an element of interpretation involved. One can make a very good case that everyone's understanding of the Gospel is a personal interpretation. It's just that many happen to agree on the same interpretation and think that such agreement proves Truth. (It does not.)

The concept you're promoting is called "Perspicuity" and if indeed there was such clarity of perspicuity as you imagine, there wouldn't be so many differences in Belief.

perspicuity

1. the quality of being clear and easy to understand: 2. the ability to think…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Even your own English Bibles state that not all things written in the New Testament are written clearly, else this verse would not exist:

(2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

God said exactly what He means..

God didn't translate the King James Bible. The Church of England did. Do YOU agree with everything the Church of England says? I trow not.

.Its up to us to line up with what God says and thats the end of it.

I happen to agree with this sentiment, yet I can assure you that you don't know everything "God says."

If we change Gods word to our own comfort zone

And yet (again) I can prove that the Church of England DID change "God's word" to fit their comfort zone. So if that's the translation you're using, you already have corrupted "God's Word." In addition, I can prove that what you think is "God's Word" is not the definition provided by the New Testament texts themselves. So... it's not too hard to show that you don't know what "God's Word" is. I'm sure you think you do, and I'm sure you've been trying your best. I just don't happen to trust the Church of England anymore than the Roman Catholic Church. Why would you?

we are actually guilty of rebellion

Well then you'd better plead for mercy.

In addition....I don't have a pre 1800s bible...

Well whose fault is that ?? There is a free software program found at esword.net that will provide the Bishop's Bible and the Geneva Bible as well as the 1611 KJV for free. In addition, one can readily find the 1611 King James Bible online with the need for an app. Here ya go:

1611 KING JAMES VERSION (1611 BIBLE)

1611 KING JAMES VERSION of the Bible online. The 1611 authorized King James Version by King James Bible Online.

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

and not the ravings of some human with an attitude.

The implied insinuation is obvious, and yet your own post shows quite a raving of attitude. All I did was to post two links to books that provide the historical development of the "Rapture" theory, and you come swinging out of the gate? (Not good form, my man.) But I'm not here to make you "feel good" about yourself, I'm here to provide adequate reasons and academic support for why I believe what I do. Why do you find that problematic?

Rhema

.and it's written in my KJV that there is a rapture.

Highly doubtful.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Indeed there is a difference between you and I. I happen to know the difference between interpretation and translation. And unless one has an adequate background in Koine Greek, one cannot see just how bad your "already in English" translations truly are. That said, even were one to read the initial Koine Greek texts, there STILL is an element of interpretation involved. One can make a very good case that everyone's understanding of the Gospel is a personal interpretation. It's just that many happen to agree on the same interpretation and think that such agreement proves Truth. (It does not.)

The concept you're promoting is called "Perspicuity" and if indeed there was such clarity of perspicuity as you imagine, there wouldn't be so many differences in Belief.

perspicuity

1. the quality of being clear and easy to understand: 2. the ability to think…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Even your own English Bibles state that not all things written in the New Testament are written clearly, else this verse would not exist:

(2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

God didn't translate the King James Bible. The Church of England did. Do YOU agree with everything the Church of England says? I trow not.


I happen to agree with this sentiment, yet I can assure you that you don't know everything "God says."


And yet (again) I can prove that the Church of England DID change "God's word" to fit their comfort zone. So if that's the translation you're using, you already have corrupted "God's Word." In addition, I can prove that what you think is "God's Word" is not the definition provided by the New Testament texts themselves. So... it's not too hard to show that you don't know what "God's Word" is. I'm sure you think you do, and I'm sure you've been trying your best. I just don't happen to trust the Church of England anymore than the Roman Catholic Church. Why would you?


Well then you'd better plead for mercy.


Well whose fault is that ?? There is a free software program found at esword.net that will provide the Bishop's Bible and the Geneva Bible as well as the 1611 KJV for free. In addition, one can readily find the 1611 King James Bible online with the need for an app. Here ya go:

1611 KING JAMES VERSION (1611 BIBLE)

1611 KING JAMES VERSION of the Bible online. The 1611 authorized King James Version by King James Bible Online.

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

The implied insinuation is obvious, and yet your own post shows quite a raving of attitude. All I did was to post two links to books that provide the historical development of the "Rapture" theory, and you come swinging out of the gate? (Not good form, my man.) But I'm not here to make you "feel good" about yourself, I'm here to provide adequate reasons and academic support for why I believe what I do. Why do you find that problematic?

Rhema


Highly doubtful.

Rhema...I don't care on whit about interpretation, translation, or perspicuity. I only care that the Holy Spirit is well capable of taking any bible on the planet, any version or translation, and teaching the truth of His Word anytime....The real problem here is that most Christians, from what I can see, prefer to trust their own intellect rather than the Holy Spirit, to teach them.

 

[Rhema]

I only care that the Holy Spirit is well capable

So then you're like the rest who claim that they're the only one "led" by the Holy Spirit ?? And yet still cannot agree about what Truth is.

The Holy Spirit is NOT "well capable" of taking a perverted translation of the Bible and magically creating lemonade out of it. But it CAN and most certainly WILL give your spirit a pause when one reads a particular passage that IS mistranslated. Time and again, I've found the initial Greek texts to provide Truth, where a translation gives you the traditions of men.

from what I can see, prefer to trust their own intellect rather than the Holy Spirit, to teach them.

You do realize that the logical conclusion of this belief is that the teaching of the Holy Spirit is irrational - that it contradicts human intellect.

And just what do you think all these translators use when making your English versions of the Bible if not their intellect and their education? Do they roll dice? Do they go into some Holy Spirit trance and do automatic writing? Have you ever spoken with a translator to find out? Have you taken classes in the Greek language? How many people do you need to belittle? Mounce? Wallace? Green? FF Bruce? Metzger?

Your view completely disconnects all intellect from the Holy Spirit.

So much for "come let us reason together...." REASON !! ... Heaven forbid !!

Rhema

The real problem here is that most Christians

The real problem here is that most Christians reject the use of their brain to learn things.

 

[Rhema]

and teaching the truth of His Word

This needed to be handled in a separate post, and as this topic is off point from the OP, I'll read your reply without further comment here.

What do you mean by "His Word" ??

Thanks,
Rhema