Will there be a rapture?

[ozell]

Jesus said

john11
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Is Jesus the rapture? NO

we know that resurrection occurs at the last day

Martha said

john11
24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

is the rapture the last day?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[Brother Mike]

Rapture.....

ozell

rapture is not in the bible so why use it? God never used it.

my point is that the rapture is not biblical nor does it means catching away or caught up.

always the rapture and guess what they are right because the word means emotions and ecstasy.

Rapture is not in the Bible??

Rapture is a Word taken from the Latin word Rapio/Rapiemur
"I catch up" "Take away"
That is the Latin for the Greek Word....Harpazo... "Snatched suddenly" Same word we get Harpoon.

Rapture is the English realation Of rape, rapids, ravish and raptor.
The English adoption of the Word has changed it's meaning. As many other bible words have been in their use today..

Your logic that believes Rapture is not in the Word (It is in the Word... It's in the Latin Vulgate) is the same logic that would say.. Salvation is not in the Word... because Salvation should have been Soteria

I guess Jesus is not in the bible also. According to your logic...

Jesus is Lord.

 

[ozell]

ozell


Rapture is not in the Bible??

Rapture is a Word taken from the Latin word Rapio/rapiuer
"I catch up" "Take away"
That is the Latin for the Greek Word....Harpazo... "Snatched suddenly" Same word we get Harpoon.

Rapture is the English realation Of rape, rapids, ravish and raptor.
The English adoption of the Word has changed it's meaning. As many other bible words have been in their use today..

Your logic that believes Rapture is not in the Word (It is in the Word... It's in the Latin Vulgate) is the same logic that would say.. Salvation is not in the Word... because Salvation should have been Soteria

I guess Jesus is not in the bible also. According to your logic...

Jesus is Lord.

brother Mike

can you read all the Latin Vulgate from Genesis to Revelation or are you just looking up words to fit the doctrine of the rapture.

I can read the entire English bible in English and I can look up any word in the english bible with a english dictionary.

now tell me what is the hieroglyphic word for rapture or caught up

the hieroglyphic is older than the Latin Vulgate or Greek?

 

[ozell]

1Thess 4

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

the people in the resurrection will be raised first

lets read

Revelation 20:4-6

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years


John said in Revelation that the dead that rose was part of the 1st resurrection

Paul says in Thessalonians that the dead shall rise first

when?

if there is a first resurrection that means there can be not one before it.

FIRST is first.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[ozell]

Revelation 20:4-6


4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

who lived and reigned with Jesus a 1000 years

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

the people in the first resurrection lived and reigned with Jesus a 1000 years

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

can there be a rapture or raising of the dead and change of the living before the first resurrection?

can anything be before the first?

 

[Brother Mike]

The first.......

can there be a rapture or raising of the dead and change of the living before the first resurrection?

can anything be before the first?

Could you attempt to use the edit post button and put everything together if possible??

This seems a little more mature than "Rapture is not in the bible" Statement which is very lame. So, I'll respond again.

Here is your issue... ozell

You want to believe in a Post Trib doctrine... Fine, I understand. We all have doctrines we want to believe, and compare scripture according to them... That is normal...

When we study the Word, it all has to line up with out any issues.... That is easy to do if we are limited to a set amount of Scriptures, and have missed some others..

It's those other scriptures that get in the way... they just pop up and trouble our doctrine...We got a couple options....We can dig in the Greek and Hebrew and do our best to find alternative meanings to suit our Doctrine, even to ignoring and twisting some scriptures....or we start from scratch, and know we are still learning.

I suggest we continue to learn...

Lets go through this a little...

REV 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Let me add one...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now we can use these to prove a post trib rapture.. or Jesus comes for us (After the Tribulation) We just have to look at when the resurrections where.. right??

We know the first resurrection occurs after the last and seventh angelic trumpet blast...

Revelation 20:5


You said......

Paul says in Thessalonians that the dead shall rise first

you made 1 Thess 4:16 to mean the same event as REV 20:5

The problem is that you have to assume 1 Thess 4:16 is also "The First Resurrection" Event.... and we just have to assume that...
That is the problem with assumption.... It just does not work when understanding the Word of God..

Lets go over some resurrection events...

1. Elijah
a. (1 Kings 17:17-22) Son of Zarephath widow
2. Elisha
a. (2 Kings 4:30-37) Son of Shunammite woman
b. (2 Kings 13:21) His bones raise up a dead man
3. Jesus
a. (John 11:38-44)- Lazarus raised after 4 days
b. (Luke 7:11-17) Widow's son raised during funeral
c. (Matt. 8:28-43, Mark 5:1-20, Luke 8:26-39) Jairus daughter
4. Jesus raised Himself
a. (Matt. 28:5-8, Mark 16:1-8, Luke 24:1-11, John 20:1-10) Jesus raised Himself
5. Many raised
a. (Matt. 27:52)- Many come out of the tombs
6. Paul
a. (Acts 20:7-12) Eutychus fell from the window
7. Peter
a. (Acts 9:36-42) Raised Dorcas

All these were resurrected from the dead... so Rev 20:5 would make that the 10th.. and not the 1st....

But Rev 20:5 States... That is the first Resurrection..........

So, we have to consider a few things......

1) What is are definition of Resurrection... it means raised from the dead... but are there different types of that??

2) Because Rev 20:5 is clearly not a first Resurrection by any stretch, and we know the Bible is not wrong.. then It has to fit in a specific Event in Time....and a order of events...

So...... to say Thess 4:16 is connected to Rev 20:5 is an assumption. As we would have to connect every resurrection mentioned in the bible to Rev 20:5

We can also say....... Rev 20:5 does not mention the dead in Christ...It just meant those that died during tribulation to be with us.

We can say we are not going to miss the marriage supper... Rev 19..

We can say Resurrection has nothing to do with the taking of those who are alive...(Rapture) as the Earth Harvest is recorded in Rev 20 ( the 1st Resurrection) ---- Matt 24...(Jesus comes with Angels, to take (Live) people) And Rev 14 (Jesus comes with angles, To take (Live) people) Two describe taking (Live) people Have no resurrection Event occurring...
Notice the Taking of People here do not coincide with Rev 20 which describes the dead being brought up?? More doctrinal issues...

We have to do better than this......to prove a Doctrine... and it will take more than just finding Resurrections and attempting to tie them together..


Jesus Is Lord.

 

[james g]

Brother Mike. WoW,

 

[ozell]

Brother Mike;181409]Could you attempt to use the edit post button and put everything together if possible??

This seems a little more mature than "Rapture is not in the bible" Statement which is very lame. So, I'll respond again.

Brother mike

it may be lame yet the the word rapture is not in the bible and the English meaning is ecstasy. down play it if you want it is written that you should not add words to God's words.

Here is your issue... ozell
You want to believe in a Post Trib doctrine... Fine, I understand. We all have doctrines we want to believe, and compare scripture according to them... That is normal...

Brother Mike I don't believe in some made up doctrine called post trib doctrine you can't read this in God's word.

When we study the Word, it all has to line up with out any issues.... That is easy to do if we are limited to a set amount of Scriptures, and have missed some others..

It's those other scriptures that get in the way... they just pop up and trouble our doctrine...We got a couple options....We can dig in the Greek and Hebrew and do our best to find alternative meanings to suit our Doctrine, even to ignoring and twisting some scriptures....or we start from scratch, and know we are still learning.

I don't need to dig up Greek or Hebrew the Lord said that he will speak to his people in all languages, lets do English.

Isaiah 28
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

lets do English God created it also.

I suggest we continue to learn...

Lets go through this a little...

REV 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Let me add one...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now we can use these to prove a post trib rapture.. or Jesus comes for us (After the Tribulation) We just have to look at when the resurrections where.. right??

I'm with you so far

We know the first resurrection occurs after the last and seventh angelic trumpet blast... Revelation 20:5

yes

You said...... you made 1 Thess 4:16 to mean the same event as REV 20:5

it is

The problem is that you have to assume 1 Thess 4:16 is also "The First Resurrection" Event.... and we just have to assume that...
That is the problem with assumption.... It just does not work when understanding the Word of God..

Lets go over some resurrection events...

1. Elijah
a. (1 Kings 17:17-22) Son of Zarephath widow
2. Elisha
a. (2 Kings 4:30-37) Son of Shunammite woman
b. (2 Kings 13:21) His bones raise up a dead man
3. Jesus
a. (John 11:38-44)- Lazarus raised after 4 days
b. (Luke 7:11-17) Widow's son raised during funeral
c. (Matt. 8:28-43, Mark 5:1-20, Luke 8:26-39) Jairus daughter
4. Jesus raised Himself
a. (Matt. 28:5-8, Mark 16:1-8, Luke 24:1-11, John 20:1-10) Jesus raised Himself
5. Many raised
a. (Matt. 27:52)- Many come out of the tombs
6. Paul
a. (Acts 20:7-12) Eutychus fell from the window
7. Peter
a. (Acts 9:36-42) Raised Dorcas

All these were resurrected from the dead... so Rev 20:5 would make that the 10th.. and not the 1st....

I put Rev 4-6 which we will read together again so you can see that there is a difference from the verse you put


Revelation 20

<SUP>4</SUP>And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


<SUP id=en-KJV-31044 class=versenum>5</SUP>But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
<SUP id=en-KJV-31045 class=versenum>6</SUP>Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

these resurrected here in Rev20 were raised and remained alive, the verse you put they were raised and died again.

But Rev 20:5 States... That is the first Resurrection..........

So, we have to consider a few things......

1) What is are definition of Resurrection... it means raised from the dead... but are there different types of that??

2) Because Rev 20:5 is clearly not a first Resurrection by any stretch, and we know the Bible is not wrong.. then It has to fit in a specific Event in Time....and a order of events...

So...... to say Thess 4:16 is connected to Rev 20:5 is an assumption. As we would have to connect every resurrection mentioned in the bible to Rev 20:5

add verses 4 and 6 which I put and hopefully you will see the connection

We can also say....... Rev 20:5 does not mention the dead in Christ...It just meant those that died during tribulation to be with us.

We can say we are not going to miss the marriage supper... Rev 19..

We can say Resurrection has nothing to do with the taking of those who are alive...(Rapture) as the Earth Harvest is recorded in Rev 20 ( the 1st Resurrection) ---- Matt 24...(Jesus comes with Angels, to take (Live) people) And Rev 14 (Jesus comes with angles, To take (Live) people) Two describe taking (Live) people Have no resurrection Event occurring...
Notice the Taking of People here do not coincide with Rev 20 which describes the dead being brought up?? More doctrinal issues...

you do understand that resurrection means to raise even in the english language, what you won't accept is that rapture means ectasy in the english lanuage, so you have to go to another language to get another meaning for a word that is not in the bible.

lets look at the word caught up in 1Thess 4 which is in th e bible


<SUP id=en-KJV-29617 class=versenum>13</SUP>But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29618 class=versenum>14</SUP>For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29619 class=versenum>15</SUP>For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29620 class=versenum>16</SUP>For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: <SUP id=en-KJV-29621 class=versenum>17</SUP>Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

what is the definition of caught up?

We have to do better than this......to prove a Doctrine... and it will take more than just finding Resurrections and attempting to tie them together..

Jesus Is Lord

resurrection is in the bible
rapture is not in the bible
1st resurrection is in the bible
there cannot be a rapture before the 1st resurrection

Please read revelation 4-6 which I put, for some reason you decided to ignore those two verses.

 

[ozell]

what is the meaning of caught up?
caught =
past and past participle of catch

<!--INFOLINKS_OFF-->

up =
(1) : in or into a higher position or level; especially : away from the center of the earth
(2) : from beneath the ground or water to the surface
(3): from below the horizon
(5) : in or into an upright position <SIT up>; especially : out of bed b : upward from the ground or surface


where do you see the word rapture?

rapture
: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion
: a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion
: a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things

Miriam from the Webster dictionary


which word fits?


1 Thessalonians 4


<SUP id=en-KJV-29617 class=versenum>13</SUP>But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

<SUP id=en-KJV-29618 class=versenum>14</SUP>For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

<SUP id=en-KJV-29619 class=versenum>15</SUP>For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

<SUP id=en-KJV-29620 class=versenum>16</SUP>For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
<SUP id=en-KJV-29621 class=versenum>17</SUP>Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Brother Mike]

Rapture..

these resurrected here in Rev20 were raised and remained alive, the verse you put they were raised and died again.

Very good observation.... except for two cases.... Jesus and the ones he brought out of hell.. so...there goes your theory...

Rapture: I already gave you the Latin word for it out of the Latin vulgate and told you what Greek word it was translated from... The English version of it is not the same as the Latin, but somewhere just stuck with certain circles to mean "Caught up" translated Haprazo in the Greek.

resurrection is in the bible
rapture is not in the bible
1st resurrection is in the bible
there cannot be a rapture before the 1st resurrection

Please read revelation 4-6 which I put, for some reason you decided to ignore those two verses.

We are going to change the word Rapture to Caught up... as not to cause confusion..

Please study the Resurrections.......... and don't assume they are the same and connected...

We are not discussing when the dead are raised.. we are discussing the times when people are just taken from the earth.. (caught up)
I already pointed out..... no mention of people (Caught Up) in the resurrection event (Rev 20).... One is mentioned in Rev 14 where Jesus comes with the Angels.... one is mentioned where the 144,000 appear at the throne of God.. One is mentioned when the two witnesses are taken up...

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[ozell]

=Brother Mike;181491]Very good observation.... except for two cases.... Jesus and the ones he brought out of hell.. so...there goes your theory...

Brother Mike

when did Jesus go to hell, where is this written?
is this the hell you claim Jesus went to

Luke 16 v23

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

was Jesus tormented

or is this the hell Jesus went to and brought up the ones you claim he did

Matthew 13:49-51
<SUP id=en-KJV-23589 class=versenum>49</SUP>So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

<SUP id=en-KJV-23590 class=versenum>50</SUP>And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. <SUP id=en-KJV-23591 class=versenum>51</SUP>Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord


you really think the Lord went to hell and brought people who were burning forever and worms eating on them forever?

Mark 9:43-45 (King James Version)


<SUP id=en-KJV-24582 class=versenum>43</SUP>And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
<SUP id=en-KJV-24583 class=versenum>44</SUP>Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. <SUP id=en-KJV-24584 class=versenum>45</SUP>And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:



sorry Brother,
Jesus did not go to Hell and at this moment there is no one in hell

Rapture: I already gave you the Latin word for it out of the Latin vulgate and told you what Greek word it was translated from... The English version of it is not the same as the Latin, but somewhere just stuck with certain circles to mean "Caught up" translated Haprazo in the Greek.

what is the Heiroglyphic word for caught up?

it is mighty funny the Webster people could not get the correct meaning for the word rapture from 2 so-called sources like greek and latin.

I aint buying the doctrine.

We are going to change the word Rapture to Caught up... as not to cause confusion..

Brother Mike

you can continue believing in a false hood, I'm not. Rapture means ecstasy caught up means to rise.

Please study the Resurrections.......... and don't assume they are the same and connected...

thanks for the plea but I am convinced the raptures is a lie and the resurrection is facts.

We are not discussing when the dead are raised.. we are discussing the times when people are just taken from the earth.. (caught up)

I already pointed out..... no mention of people (Caught Up) in the resurrection event (Rev 20).... One is mentioned in Rev 14 where Jesus comes with the Angels.... one is mentioned where the 144,000 appear at the throne of God.. One is mentioned when the two witnesses are taken up... Jesus Is Lord.

the 1st resurrection is the raising of the dead on the last day

lets look at the time of this event

John 6

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John11v24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


the dead will be raised at the last day even Martha made it clear

is the rapture the last day?

is 1 Thessalonians 4 the last day?

does the word caught up mean to rise or be raised?

what time is this that the people in 1Thessalonians 4 are caught up

the last day in the resurrection as Jesus and Martha made very clear.

 

[Brother Mike]

when did Jesus go to hell, where is this written?
is this the hell you claim Jesus went to

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Mat 27:52 The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [16] in death were raised [to life];

Here is your first resurrection of the dead. No, they did not die again... Making your connection from Thess 4:16-17 To REV 20:4-6 very questionable....

what is the Heiroglyphic word for caught up?

it is mighty funny the Webster people could not get the correct meaning for the word rapture from 2 so-called sources like greek and latin.

Your amazing ozell......I simply showed where Christians have taken up the word Rapture. I showed you where we got the word, and the meaning of the Latin word from where we got it.. It is Christian slang if you will, for the taking of people...

1Th 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur *** illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper *** Domino erimus

thanks for the plea but I am convinced the raptures is a lie and the resurrection is facts.

Nobody disputes that there is no resurrection. We are talking about the taking of people off the planet who are alive.. That is what the thread is about.

Elijah and Enoch were both taken, meaning the taking of people event does not have to coincide with just one event of your choosing.
The 144,000 were taken, and the two witness were taken before your Rev 20:5 Event occurs...

Martha said she knows that he will be raised again on the last day. What do you define as the last day??

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[ozell]

=Brother Mike;181511]1 peter 3v18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Good Morning Mike

you left something out up there and most people do, lets read verse 20 and see when was this time.

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here is a question for you Mike did Jesus die in the days of Noah?
so we know the answer is NO. Now we must ask what spirits is Peter talking about?

Mat 27:52 The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [16] in death were raised [to life];

Lets read it correctly

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I want you to follow me on this one here

where did these saints come out of? the grave.

Mike why is the saints in the grave and not in heaven?

notice it says came out of the grave and not down from heaven.

why is that? the doctrine of today is that when you die you go to heaven

These saints that came out of the grave are they David and the Prophets?

Here is your first resurrection of the dead. No, they did not die again... Making your connection from thess 4v16-17 To REV 20:4-6 very questionable....

Mike these people are dead and here is one of many reason why?

lets head over to Paul in Hebrews 11, this is the same Paul who gave you Thess 4v16-17

read the chapter on your own I want to get to the point,this is the
faith chapter

Hebrews 11

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:


32 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
<SUP id=en-KJV-30213 class=versenum></SUP>
40 God having provided some better thing for us,that they without us should not be made perfect.

Mike

Paul said those saints in the faith chapter will not be made perfect without him or us.

How is it that those people you mentioned are made perfect without you and the people on this forum who follow Jesus?

lets take another look at it

Mike

when Jesus came out of the grave he did not go directly to heaven
did the people that came out of the grave did they go before him?

Jesus said

John 3v13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

where are those people that you think are resurrected?

Your amazing ozell......I simply showed where Christians have taken up the word Rapture. I showed you where we got the word, and the meaning of the Latin word from where we got it.. It is Christian slang if you will, for the taking of people...

Mike
What you gave me is a excuse to support your doctrine

what is the Hieroglyphic translation which was 1000's of years before latin and Greek?

Next what you said does me no good because Jesus said this

Isaiah 28:10-12
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people


that tongue means nothing to a person who don't know it.

rapture means ecstasy in English, in another tongue it may means something else but I doubt it because it don't line up with the word of God

Nobody disputes that there is no resurrection. We are talking about the taking of people off the planet who are alive.. That is what the thread is about.

where do it say we are taken off the planet? this rapture is wrong. we are not taken off the planet, it say we meet the Lord in the clouds. Go outside of a cloudy day and you can see the clouds on the planet.

Elijah and Enoch were both taken, meaning the taking of people event does not have to coincide with just one event of your choosing.

show me where Enoch was taken?
show me where Elijah was taken?
before you do that read this again

John 3v13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


and this

2Cor 2v12
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Enoch never died to be raised or resurrected
Elijah did not go to the 3rd heaven.

which heaven did they go?

is Jesus the firstborn and first fruit from the dead from the dead?


1Cor 15

12But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. <SUP id=en-KJV-28147 class=versenum>30</SUP>Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The 144,000 were taken, and the two witness were taken before your Rev 20:5 Event occurs...

Not so.

NO one can be resurrected before the 1st resurrection.

Martha said she knows that he will be raised again on the last day. What do you define as the last day?? Jesus Is Lord

When the Lord comes which is the end of man's rule.

the Lord gave man 6 days to labour man has laboured 6 days
the 7th day is the coming of the Lord he will rule from that day forward. ANOTHER LESSON for a different day.

lets read

Exodus 20

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

a day to the Lord is what 1000 years and 1000 years is a day?

Psalm 90:
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2Peter3

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Brother Mike]

Jesus did not go to hell..

I gave you the Word Rapture and were we got that word. I gave you the Latin definition, and gave you the English words derived from them.
I also acknowledged that the Pure English definition has been changed, but the original Latin has not. We say Rapture instead of Rapiemur.

rapiēmur

1. first-person plural future passive indicative of rapiō "we shall be snatched, we shall be grabbed, we shall be carried off"

Sorry if this one was to hard....

Mike why is the saints in the grave and not in heaven?

notice it says came out of the grave and not down from heaven.

They came out of Hell......... because Jesus preached to them...
Resurrected..... something that was dead, and walking around is resurrected..

Paul said those saints in the faith chapter will not be made perfect without him or us.

Correct, so Jesus went to preach to them...

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

NO one can be resurrected before the 1st resurrection.

Tell Jesus that....

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

After reading your post several times... lets get back to the question..
Your trying to tie in resurrections with the taking of people...This is about Rapture....
You have some good points on the 1,000 years as a day... but lets stay focused on the topic.

The taking of people mean ones that are breathing on earth... You try to lump in a resurrection with that... having occurred after Rev 14 where Jesus comes with the Angels.

So, what points or only point do you see Live people being taken...

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[JRFifty]

Rapture resp

The rapture happens at the 6th seal in the book of revelation. This event is the same event as the day of the lord. This is when the sun turns dark the moon does not shine, and the heavens open up like a scroll and Jesus comes in great glory to recieve his chosen ones. Everyone will see the rapture happen.
Then they will hide themselves from the lord and say "save us from him which sitted on the throne, and his wrath. For the great day of his wrath has come and who should be able to stand. Rev 6
This event is prophesied all over the Bible. Must be the same event.
The great day of the Lord. Thes 4 Matthew 24 many others.
Ok, so now we know this is the Rapture. But When?
Scripture tells us about the 70th week of Daniel. But never says 7 year tribulation. Matthew 24
The world always has tribulation. But we do know the Great Tribulation will last 3 and a half years.

 

[JRFifty]

cont

So when is the Great tribulation. We know the Elder tells John these multitudes are the ones coming out of Great Tribulation. The time of Jacob's trouble. This terrible time is I interpret to be the last 3 and a half years of 70th week.
Rapture happens either at mid point or sometime shortly after, since no one can know the day or hour only the season.
But for the elects sake (the church) those days are shortened.
(Rapture) However there is still Israel and the Unsaved left.
God's wrath is poured down while this terrible kingdom attacks Israel.
They flee into the mountains, and God sustains them.
he is showing them and the world that Jesus is lord.
He comes back on the last Day at the battle of Armageddon with heavenly army, and thus begins the Millenial kingdom
So this is why I think the rapture is pre-wrath.
So I think the timing of the rapture hinges on the timing of the 6th seal.

 

[JRFifty]

the resurrection rev 20

Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Rev 20
So the first resurrection is only for God's elect. The dead in Christ arise first. We meet them in the clouds and we are caught up to meet our Lord and savior Jesus Christ in heaven.
John 14 he receives us to him This is the first resurrection.
The second resurrection occurs at the end of the millenial kingdom.
This is judgement for the unsaved

 

[Brother Mike]

You were doing good...

JRFifty

The rapture happens at the 6th seal in the book of revelation. This event is the same event as the day of the lord. This is when the sun turns dark the moon does not shine, and the heavens open up like a scroll and Jesus comes in great glory to recieve his chosen ones. Everyone will see the rapture happen.
Then they will hide themselves from the lord and say "save us from him which sitted on the throne, and his wrath. For the great day of his wrath has come and who should be able to stand. Rev 6
This event is prophesied all over the Bible. Must be the same event.
The great day of the Lord. Thes 4 Matthew 24 many others.
Ok, so now we know this is the Rapture. But When?

Great Job!!! but.......you did a few things that need examined.

You pegged on Rapture event perfect... but missed one...

The great day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord is His Wrath on this earth.... which included the tribulation and judgement...

But for the elects sake (the church)

You helped define the Word elect to mean church.....Elect just means Chosen, Jesus only used the word to describe the events during the tribulation, and one time about God's elect crying day and night to be delivered (Not very faith like)
Everywhere else it was who so ever believes on me... not someone God picked. He used the term Church once also, Many times he refereed to those that called him Lord.....


Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

If you read Rev 3-21 The church is never mentioned one time...

In Rev the Word Gospel is used once, and preached by an Angel... Not the Church... No mention of the "Gospel of Christ" In fact, there is no identifiable Church or body of Christ anywhere in Rev 3-21....

We find the generic Term Saints...... instead... Same term used in the OT

Why is that??

So this is why I think the rapture is pre-wrath.

You Think............... that is very good, and means your a student of the Word of God, and will examine other scriptures once brought to light..




6th Seal............

This is a big event... Jesus said mans hearts will fail them...

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The sun goes almost out, the moon blood red....(Reflection of the sun) The oceans effected by this will roar....

This event is described in Matt 24 also and in REV 14....
Jesus the angels and sickle... The great earth harvest of the tares and Wheat..

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This event occurs... exactly after the seventh Angelic Trumpet blast...
This even occurs exactly after the 6th seal of the sun and moon.
This even occurs exactly 3 1/2 years after the Antichrist declares himself God in Israel.
This even will not surprise anyone... as we can count the trumpets, seals, events, and Vials that are released in Order..

We will know the exact Day Jesus returns with the Angels and sickle to reap the whole earth... once we have our starter events..

Who was Jesus talking to though???


Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Who might live in the Judaea area???
Who strictly keeps the Sabbath day??
Who??
Jesus said the Angels gather his "Elect" or chosen ones... We know exactly what day this is...

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

This statement ends with "My words shall not pass away." That ends the group he was talking to..... much like... "You mark my words... it will happen"...

EVENT 2: Or 1 if in Order..

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The first Event we know the exact day and hour.... In that hour the sun goes dark... the moon blood red... the seas roar... The tribes mourn..... what Tribes??? Should have said church right?? Not if the church is not there....

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Everything seems normal.... Nothing going on in the Earth... Certainly not what the bible describes
Dan 12:1 ..........and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time........

Everything is fine... Until..................

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Nobody knew about the flood until "AFTER" Noah entered the Ark... entered safety.. then they knew....

One was taken, and one left.............. some where left.....

This event does not describe the Angel's and sickle.... This event does not describe anything special going on in the earth at the time.
This event is sudden, and unexpected......

Who is Jesus talking to here??

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?............

Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Jesus is talking to those that Call him Lord..... Not those that Keep the Sabbath Holy, not those that live in Judea.... but those that call Him Lord.... Those whose name is written in the book of Life.....

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We are not there brother...

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Who is Jesus talking to here??

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?............

Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

This would seem to apply to individuals who should have known better.
ie.... church leaders and teachers.Maybe a big brother who is just a jerk.


Was this scripture totally irrelevant for the last 2000 years?
Or does it speak of a personal experience that was available to every believer for the last 2000 years.
How many cultures thought they would be the ones to be ruptured?All of them failed to spiritually discern the true living message.

We are a house in a house in a house in a house.What happens on the micro happens on the macro.Scripture of a cryptic nature tells us about patterns and cycles and patterns of cycles.It is like the book of revelation,cryptic, timeless and manifold in meaning and wisdom.It was meant to be a blessing to the church and not a divider.

Right now I can see a new layer that the message says "just because your having great success does not mean I(Jesus) approve of you".
The word is living you see,it may tell me more tomorrow.That does not mean I'm wrong today,it's just another layer.

 

[Brother Mike]

Rapture.....

Thiscrosshurts

This would seem to apply to individuals who should have known better.
ie.... church leaders and teachers.Maybe a big brother who is just a jerk.


Was this scripture totally irrelevant for the last 2000 years?
Or does it speak of a personal experience that was available to every believer for the last 2000 years.
How many cultures thought they would be the ones to be ruptured?All of them failed to spiritually discern the true living message.

I listened to a man who said he had a vision of the Rapture... He said that there were hundreds and thousands of people trying to jump up as if to Catch the Spirit or catch whatever they say take the ones that REally meant that Jesus Is Lord and lived their life accordingly...

He saw panic in their faces as they just jumped over and over hoping to go next.....

People have been predicting the end and standing on the corners with doomsday signs for a long time... they still are predicting the end... and Jesus clearly stated He is coming when we are not looking for him.....

Jesus Is Lord.