Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Spockrates]

Yes,lets get off the merry go round and find something that actually goes somewhere.
"saved" is a term that is often used but rarely defined.
There have been various threads made trying to do that but they degrade to the usual arguments quickly.
Does saved mean not being thrown in hell or is it not living a defeated life.
Is it a combination of two or more elements or is it referring to something we have not yet considered.

Look at all the ways the term saved is used and see if they fit your version of saved.
Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
Does your version of saved work with this scripture?
Can someone be saved by proxy?

Yes, the statement is ambiguous. It might instead mean, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household [if they also believe]."

Acts 11:14
He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'
He does not say,may be or can be.

He may have been speaking prophetically, or perhaps made a poor choice of words. Or maybe the person the historian Luke interviewed before writing Acts had an inaccurate recollection.

Luke 19:8 Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much."
Luke 19:9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
This man's doing's showed Jesus he believed the message and the messenger.
Jesus did not add further instructions as far as we know.

Agreed.

Acts 11:14
He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'

This makes it appear that the message itself is what saves.

But isn't there a difference between being saved by something and being saved through something else? Let's say I win the Power Ball lottery. I might say I was made a millionare by the lottery and through guessing the winning lottery numbers. I could not say I won by guessing the numbers. For guessing the numbers would do me no good if I never buy a lottery ticket!

In the same light, hearing the message about how to be saved would do me no good if God had no intention of saving me. Indeed, that's what many who advocate Reformed Theology believe.

Can we find a definition that fits all these(and more) examples?

I'd say you are wise indeed! You have pointed out the dividing line between those on either side of the Christian civil war. On one side are those who say there is only one salvation--being sanctified is how we are saved from hell. On the other side are those who say there are two salvations--being saved from hell and being saved from the practice sin, with the latter not being a cause of the former. Then there are those who have not chosen a side--people like you and me who do not yet know which group of combatants are on God's side, but are trying to decide! Am I correct in saying you and I have yet to enlist in the armed forces of a specific army of Christian soldiers?

 

[Spockrates]

It seems that the previous statement contradicts the most recent. But as Socrates said, "A wiseman is not likely to talk nonsense! Therefore we ought to try our best to understand him."

So if you don't mind, I'd like your help in trying tobunderstand the respected preacher.

Would you say that Wesley meant to convey that faith is the only condition one must meet prior to the initial receiving of salvation? Should you also say that this faith, as well as God's grace are causes of such salvation?

Travis: I meant to write, "Would you also say," instead of "Should you also say." My fat fingers hit the wrong letter, again!

 

[Travis]

Travis: I meant to write, "Would you also say," instead of "Should you also say." My fat fingers hit the wrong letter, again!

It's possible I don't understand Wesley. But assuming I do, it seems pretty unequivocal to me that he is saying that faith is the only condition upon which ones salvation is contingent. This statement assumes the grace of God though, which is the source of men's salvation, and does not negate grace by any means. From a mostly human perspective though, it is about faith. All who truly believe are justified, all who are without faith remain under the wrath of God.

We are saved by grace, through faith. Repentance is incredibly important, and a lack there of often demonstrates that one does not have faith. But as Wesley points out, repentance is not on the same level as faith.

All streams have a source. The stream does not feed into the source, but the source into the stream. If you can find me a stream that flows uphill, back to its original source, I can find you a man who has genuine repentance but lacks any amount of faith.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[Spockrates]

It's possible I don't understand Wesley. But assuming I do, it seems pretty unequivocal to me that he is saying that faith is the only condition upon which ones salvation is contingent. This statement assumes the grace of God though, which is the source of men's salvation, and does not negate grace by any means. From a mostly human perspective though, it is about faith. All who truly believe are justified, all who are without faith remain under the wrath of God.

We are saved by grace, through faith. Repentance is incredibly important, and a lack there of often demonstrates that one does not have faith. But as Wesley points out, repentance is not on the same level as faith.

All streams have a source. The stream does not feed into the source, but the source into the stream. If you can find me a stream that flows uphill, back to its original source, I can find you a man who has genuine repentance but lacks any amount of faith.

Blessings,

Travis

Thank you, Travis.

I hear what you are saying. And sorry for being slow to understand, but I'm still unsure what the wise Wesley believed about repentance. Please tell me: In regard to being saved from hell, did he say repentance is a cause of such, or merely an effect? Or if you don't know for certain, what's your own opinion?

 

[Travis]

Thank you, Travis.

I hear what you are saying. And sorry for being slow to understand, but I'm still unsure what the wise Wesley believed about repentance. Please tell me: In regard to being saved from hell, did he say repentance is a cause of such, or merely an effect? Or if you don't know for certain, what's your own opinion?

I'm not sure I 100% understand the question. But I think that repentance is definitely a necessary qualification for being justified. Our Lord started out his ministry on earth preaching "repent and believe". In a sense it is impossible to believe without repenting, because repentance signifies a change in ones mind or way of thinking. To go from a state of not believing, to believing indicates that you changed your mind. Repenting is a necessary part of the Christian faith, but it is not on the same level as faith.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of the Lord. But, repentance is contingent upon faith, and the result of faith, it is downstream of faith. You can have legitimate faith and lack a certain degree of repentance for a time. But you cannot have any true repentance, brought about by godly sorrow, without first having faith.

Travis

 

[Spockrates]

I'm not sure I 100% understand the question. But I think that repentance is definitely a necessary qualification for being justified. Our Lord started out his ministry on earth preaching "repent and believe". In a sense it is impossible to believe without repenting, because repentance signifies a change in ones mind or way of thinking. To go from a state of not believing, to believing indicates that you changed your mind. Repenting is a necessary part of the Christian faith, but it is not on the same level as faith.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of the Lord. But, repentance is contingent upon faith, and the result of faith, it is downstream of faith. You can have legitimate faith and lack a certain degree of repentance for a time. But you cannot have any true repentance, brought about by godly sorrow, without first having faith.

Travis

I hear, but it's still clear as mud. Again, I apologize for be slow to understand. Maybe your answer to this question will help. Please answer with only the word yes or no so it is clear as crystal:

Is it at all possible to have legitimate, saving faith with absolutely no repentance? Is it possible to have no repentance and yet still make it to heaven? A death-bed conversion, for example. Can one make it to heaven by fostering only moments before death a legitimate, saving faith, yet by having absolutely no repentance?

I know it is three questions, but they're each asking the same thing. A simple yes or no will let me know what you believe.

 

[Travis]

Is it at all possible to have legitimate faith with absolutely no repentance. Is it possible to have no repentance and yet still make it to heaven? A death-bed conversion, for example. Can one make it to heaven having moments before death legitimate faith, yet absolutely no repentance?

Define repentance.

 

[Dovegiven]

I am concerned about your "LOL" responses. Why the animosity? There's a more civil manner of dialogue befitting brethren in the Lord.

Lol,
Noah could have jumped out of the ark at any time and drowned himself in the waters. Why didn't he?
Noah's trust was not in the ark. Or another way of putting it, Noah's faith was not in the ark. Noah's faith was in Christ.

Scriptures don't say that. He heard God like Adam and Enoch did. Abraham heard God. The Jews heard God, but could only hope to meet the Messiah, having only been allowed to put faith in the righteousness of the Law. When Jesus was manifested to the world, our faith is entirely based on him. By faith in what God told Noah, in fear he made the ark to save his family. Hebrews 11:7 (KJV)
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Noah was accounted the same measure of righteousness as Abraham, but not the righteousness of God in Christ yet. Neither obtained the promise of the Spiri through Jesus.

I said

With Jesus not yet the way manifested to access the grace of God unto salvation,

You said

Jesus has always been the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Colossians 1 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

So where in the OT does it say anyone knew they are dealing with Jesus, God the Son? Yes, he was creator, one of the "US" who were present making man in his image and likeness. Nobody learned of his Sonship until NT times. Meanwhile, all relationships of man and God were very limited, based on hearing God speak, seeing him as a cloud or pillar of fire, burning bush, etc. and having the Holy Spirit come upon them for special purposes.

You said

Noah didn't decide when it was time to get on the Ark, the Lord told him when to get in:

Genesis 7 1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. ... 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

I had already written "He had to board it and stay there until God approved disembarking."

You said

Noah didn't even shut the door to the ark, to secure himself and his family:
Genesis 7 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Noah and family had been inside that boat during the construction of it. It wasn't their first time inside before month 2 Day 17. Once prepared for the animals, they went inside the day the door was shut. It was open all along since the door was constructed.

Noah obeyed God because he believed God, and what God had said to him. It's as simple as saying this, Noah had faith.
Heb 11 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Noah was not commended for his obedience. He certainly was obedient. But his obedience flowed forth only because of his faith. Faith comes first, and true living faith from God is unwavering, because it is a gift. Faith is what is important here.

The red highlight is something we can agree upon. God commended Noah, Daniel and Job in Ezekiel, who all like Abraham had pleasing faith but also did works of righteousness by obeying. Obeying commandments is not simply a matter of having faith, but working out your faith unto your final salvation at the end.

 

[Spockrates]

Define repentance.

Repentance, I suppose is either (1) a change of mind that is demonstrated by a change in behavior, or (2) a change of behavior that demonstrates a change of mind.

Since I am unsure whether the thought or the deed is repentance, I will be brave and choose thought. If you and I cannot defend her, then I shall abandon her as an imposter and say repentance must instead be behavior.

That being said, let me take a stand for her and please do your best to point out my error, if any: I say Wesley must be wrong. Repentance and faith are equally conditions of salvation. For one cannot believe Jesus saves without first changing her mind in thinking he does not! One cannot put faith in God's forgiveness without first changing her mind that she does not need to be forgiven!

Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, one might say. As you can't have heads without tails, you can't have faith without repentance.

Therefore there are at the very least two conditions for salvation, not one. So Wesley--although wise in a great many spiritual things--is showing a lack of wisdom about faith and repentance.

Do you think I speak wisely, or should I repent of such a foolish notion?

 

[Dovegiven]

I hear, but it's still clear as mud. Again, I apologize for be slow to understand. Maybe your answer to this question will help. Please answer with only the word yes or no so it is clear as crystal:

Is it at all possible to have legitimate, saving faith with absolutely no repentance? Is it possible to have no repentance and yet still make it to heaven? A death-bed conversion, for example. Can one make it to heaven by fostering only moments before death a legitimate, saving faith, yet by having absolutely no repentance?

I know it is three questions, but they're each asking the same thing. A simple yes or no will let me know what you believe.

Belief of the gospel must be from one's "heart" by faith. Repentance is a change of mind, taking on a new attitude against sin, resolving to conquer it. Neither of those, belief and repentance, is a work. Repentance isn't something you go do, like preaching the gospel. A person who merely believes but never says it only believes, will not be saved. Saying what you believe in the heart still isn't all of it.
Romans 10:9-13 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 3:19 (KJV) 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

[Spockrates]

Belief of the gospel must be from one's "heart" by faith. Repentance is a change of mind, taking on a new attitude against sin, resolving to conquer it. Neither of those, belief and repentance, is a work. Repentance isn't something you go do, like preaching the gospel. A person who merely believes but never says it only believes, will not be saved. Saying what you believe in the heart still isn't all of it.
Romans 10:9-13 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 3:19 (KJV) 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Thank you, Dovegiven. Acts 3 is particularly helpful. So am I correct that you disagree with Wesley, who said faith is the only condition one must meet to be saved? That is, would you say repentance is also a condition for being eternally forgiven by God?

 

[Travis]

Repentance, I suppose is either (1) a change of mind that is demonstrated by a change in behavior, or (2) a change of behavior that demonstrates a change of mind.

Since I am unsure whether the thought or the deed is repentance, I will be brave and choose thought. If you and I cannot defend her, then I shall abandon her as an imposter and say repentance must instead be behavior.

That being said, let me take a stand for her and please do your best to point out my error, if any: I say Wesley must be wrong. Repentance and faith are equally conditions of salvation. For one cannot believe Jesus saves without first changing her mind in thinking he does not! One cannot put faith in God's forgiveness without first changing her mind that she does not need to be forgiven!

Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, one might say. As you can't have heads without tails, you can't have faith without repentance.

Therefore there are at the very least two conditions for salvation, not one. So Wesley--although wise in a great many spiritual things--is showing a lack of wisdom about faith and repentance.

Do you think I speak wisely, or should I repent of such a foolish notion?

I'm not so sure Wesley would disagree with you.

There are different ways of speaking about the same thing, and sometimes people are in fact agreeing when they think they are disagreeing. Wesley is dead, so I can't ask him though.

I don't necessarily like this:

"Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, one might say. As you can't have heads without tails, you can't have faith without repentance."​

But I do like this:

"For one cannot believe Jesus saves without first changing her mind in thinking he does not! One cannot put faith in God's forgiveness without first changing her mind that she does not need to be forgiven!"​

Faith isn't much faith if you remain completely unregenerate and don't turn from your sin in the least bit. I wouldn't call that faith anyway.

I think it is quite satisfactory to say that justification and sanctification rest wholly in faith, true and living faith that comes only from the Father.

No one will enter the kingdom who has not had their spirit quickened by the Holy Spirit and had their heart of stone replaced with a heart of flesh. This is not a condition for salvation persay, but a mere fact. IMO.

If someone has a chance, a moment in time, where they have the opportunity to genuinely repent and be born again, and they do not, I would say it is because they have no faith.

I'm going to stop rambling now.

Thanks for the discourse Spockrates.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[Travis]

I am concerned about your "LOL" responses. Why the animosity? There's a more civil manner of dialogue befitting brethren in the Lord.

This does not surprise me. My laughter often drives religious people quite nuts. Expecially religious church ladies for some reason... haven't quite figured that one out. But I'm digressing... I'm not sure where the animosity is in my words? Unless you are bringing it to the table somehow. Sometimes we project onto others things that are actually in ourselves.

¯\(°_o)/¯

Travis

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Yes, the statement is ambiguous. It might instead mean, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household [if they also believe]."

He may have been speaking prophetically, or perhaps made a poor choice of words. Or maybe the person the historian Luke interviewed before writing Acts had an inaccurate recollection.

How would we fit this into the picture?
1 Timothy 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Maybe it is reffering to a temporal saving from death giving birth but someone somewhere has probably told a woman she had to have kids to go to heaven

But isn't there a difference between being saved by something and being saved through something else?

In the natural I can be saved by getting on or off a boat or a plane.
That seems to be the way you are using it,like saved from something rather than to something?


You mentioned saved from hell and also being eternally forgiven by God so I assume you see them as the same thing.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Eternal means no beginning and no end,always was always will be. and God is eternal does not change and lacks nothing.
Only a victim has a need to forgive and being eternal forgiveness it could not begin.

Hell does not appear to be eternal and gives up it's dead.so I'm not sure what you mean by eternal forgiveness.
By the way who do you figure was in the sea,would that be a place for sailors?
The judging comes from the book of life and Jesus said the disciples were already clean because of the word he had spoken.
Jesus also said the word he had spoken would be their judge.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Temporal returns to temporal and eternal returns to eternal.
I do not believe a soul is eternal because it can have a begining and seems to be able to change (repent).
I think that is why we are told to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh and the soul is not mentioned.

James 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Some versions say save his soul from death.
KJV
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Some use life instead of soul.
let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins.

The Jews were waiting for "the resurrection" when God would restore all things.

John 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Martha does not mention heaven or hell because the Jews were waiting for the restoration of all things.
John 5:25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
I feel that Jesus is telling us that the resurrection is in the future if you believe in that sort of thing(linear time).
But it seems that now is as good a time as any if you believe he is Lord of all including space-time.

It seems a little more complex than what is commonly taught.

In the same light, hearing the message about how to be saved would do me no good if God had no intention of saving me. Indeed, that's what many who advocate Reformed Theology believe.

That would depend on your definition of saved and that's what I'm trying to ask you.
Is it escape from eternal torture or escape from a defeated life?

Then there are those who have not chosen a side--people like you and me who do not yet know which group of combatants are on God's side, but are trying to decide! Am I correct in saying you and I have yet to enlist in the armed forces of a specific army of Christian soldiers

You have judged rightly.
I believe scripture is trying to show us how pointless it is trying to understand the eternal with temporal information.
Both sides have plenty of scripture to back them up and I was tossed to and fro because I can see the merits and detractors on both sides.
Obviously no one in this thread is slacking in study and diligence.
I do see alternatives to the two sides but until we can sync our definitions we will just go round and round.

 

[Travis]

How would we fit this into the picture?
1 Timothy 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Maybe it is reffering to a temporal saving from death giving birth but someone somewhere has probably told a woman she had to have kids to go to heaven

1 Tim. 2:15, She, They, and Salvation through Child Bearing | Saved through Child Bearing?

:thumbsup:

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

1 Tim. 2:15, She, They, and Salvation through Child Bearing | Saved through Child Bearing?

Thanks Travis,the article treats the subject fairly by offering a range of possible interpretation.
I think every instance of the term saved should be analyzed that carefully.
The author suggests that it could be in reference to local customs and that seems to be a valid point.
That may be the case but I wonder how much more scripture one could disregard because it is seems situational.
Some like mens hair length and women teaching are addressing situations that may no longer exist
Example scripture tells us that in the spirit there is neither male nor female.
So if we are spiritual then a woman can't preach because there is no such thing=problem solved.

So if there is no male or female then it may be saying one thing in the natural
while saying something completely different in the spirit.So I don't disregard things that don't seem
important anymore because there may be a hidden meaning(1 or more) that can be seen only when you reach a certain level of understanding.Woman has different meanings in different environments.If a woman can be a son then a man can be a woman in spirit by saving souls.

care to take a shot at this one?
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

does clean or holy mean saved?

 

[Travis]

care to take a shot at this one?
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

does clean or holy mean saved?

Sanctified, generally speaking, means to be set apart, or to be made separate. So in this sense, the unbelieving spouse is set apart from the rest of the unbelieving world, in a certain way of looking at things, and made to be holy of sorts, for the sake of the believers children.

But, verse 16 answers the question regarding whether this has anything to do with salvation or not:

1 Corinthians 7
16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?​

God can clean a pig up if needs be for the sake of his children. But, at the end of the day, that pig still loves to roll around in the mud and eat garbage. This type of sanctification being talked about here is just supericial, in a sense, and is not the same sanctification that believers take part in, though it is very similar. Methinks.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

1 Corinthians 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

Example:
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

I feel that is a masterkey scripture because it tells us definitions of spiritual things.
This was given by revelation and not logic.

Look at these two scripture using the masterkey taught to us by the spirit.
1 Timothy 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Since there is no male or female then what would a woman be in the spirit.
I'm thinking one with a womb or one who brings life or birth.

I can find other verses to see if I am close.

James 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Perhaps in the spirit a woman is one who brings back a sinner.
That would save the sinners soul but not necessarily the one who brings them back.

Mark 9:41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.

Most of us know that water and the word are equivocal through scripture and we know that Jesus washes his bride in the water of his word.
So those who minister the word(wash the bride) are giving birth as a spiritual woman and will not lose their reward.
This does not match 1 Timothy 2:15 exactly though because they gave the drink to believers.
I know they are believers because they gave it to them because of their name as followers.
In the spirit time is different and effect can precede cause(yes,I can back that up) so potential followers are followers if a follower judges them so.
Reading it in the flesh says I can get saved by giving a christian a cup of water.

I hope this makes spiritual sense because I know it does not make logical sense

 

[Spockrates]

I'm not so sure Wesley would disagree with you.

There are different ways of speaking about the same thing, and sometimes people are in fact agreeing when they think they are disagreeing. Wesley is dead, so I can't ask him though.

I don't necessarily like this:

"Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, one might say. As you can't have heads without tails, you can't have faith without repentance."​

It's something I heard a Reformed Theology apologist say. If you'd like, please explain why you don't like it.

But I do like this:

"For one cannot believe Jesus saves without first changing her mind in thinking he does not! One cannot put faith in God's forgiveness without first changing her mind that she does not need to be forgiven!"​

Faith isn't much faith if you remain completely unregenerate and don't turn from your sin in the least bit. I wouldn't call that faith anyway.

I think it is quite satisfactory to say that justification and sanctification rest wholly in faith, true and living faith that comes only from the Father.

No one will enter the kingdom who has not had their spirit quickened by the Holy Spirit and had their heart of stone replaced with a heart of flesh. This is not a condition for salvation persay, but a mere fact. IMO.

If someone has a chance, a moment in time, where they have the opportunity to genuinely repent and be born again, and they do not, I would say it is because they have no faith.

I'm going to stop rambling now.

Thanks for the discourse Spockrates.

Blessings,

Travis

OK, so what you said just helped me imagine something I'd never considered before. If you have time, please let me know what you think: Perhaps faith is trust that what one believes is real an true. So to be saved I might:

1. Trust not only God is real, and
2. Trust not only Christ died for my sins, but
3. Also trust what I must do in response to him

So in this scenario (whether it is imaginary or real, I do not yet know), the kind of faith that saves is the kind that believes not only in who Christ is and what he has done, but also what I must do, and the least that I must do is repent.

If this be true, then we are putting faith in Christ AND repentance. Hence, we are in fact saved by grace through faith alone!

What do you think? Might I be onto something?

 

[Spockrates]

How would we fit this into the picture?
1 Timothy 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Maybe it is reffering to a temporal saving from death giving birth but someone somewhere has probably told a woman she had to have kids to go to heaven

Yes, the word saved seems to be used in a temporal sense in some passages and in an eternal sense in others. The context can help discern the correct sense, but context does not give us a 100% guarantee.

In the natural I can be saved by getting on or off a boat or a plane.
That seems to be the way you are using it,like saved from something rather than to something?

Perhaps. I guess I'd say the word by refers to the thing by which we are saved and the through refers to the thing we must do.

So to say we are saved by grace means grace is what does the saving. For God saves us, and the grace is his. But to say we are saved through faith might mean we are not saved by faith. Grace does the saving. Faith is what we must do to receive such saving.

So then, think of a drowning man. A Good Samaritan throws him a life preserver. He grabs onto it to stay afloat. Who did the saving?

Wait! What? You know? I think both the one throwing the life preserver and the one grabbing hold of it did the saving. So now I'm at a loss to say what the difference might be. I think maybe both are necessary. What do you think?

You mentioned saved from hell and also being eternally forgiven by God so I assume you see them as the same thing.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Eternal means no beginning and no end,always was always will be. and God is eternal does not change and lacks nothing.
Only a victim has a need to forgive and being eternal forgiveness it could not begin.

Hell does not appear to be eternal and gives up it's dead.so I'm not sure what you mean by eternal forgiveness.

Like the word saved, eternal has more than one meaning. Eternal can mean (1) no beginning and no end, or it can mean (2) a beginning with no end. For God, I suppose he might forgive me in the sense of (1), since he is omniscient and knew what I would do before I existed. For me, I suppose I must experience his firgiveness in the sense of (2), since I had a beginning.

By the way who do you figure was in the sea,would that be a place for sailors?
The judging comes from the book of life and Jesus said the disciples were already clean because of the word he had spoken.
Jesus also said the word he had spoken would be their judge.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Temporal returns to temporal and eternal returns to eternal.
I do not believe a soul is eternal because it can have a begining and seems to be able to change (repent).
I think that is why we are told to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh and the soul is not mentioned.

James 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Some versions say save his soul from death.
KJV
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Some use life instead of soul.
let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins.

The Jews were waiting for "the resurrection" when God would restore all things.

John 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Martha does not mention heaven or hell because the Jews were waiting for the restoration of all things.
John 5:25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
I feel that Jesus is telling us that the resurrection is in the future if you believe in that sort of thing(linear time).
But it seems that now is as good a time as any if you believe he is Lord of all including space-time.

It seems a little more complex than what is commonly taught.

That would depend on your definition of saved and that's what I'm trying to ask you.
Is it escape from eternal torture or escape from a defeated life?

You have judged rightly.
I believe scripture is trying to show us how pointless it is trying to understand the eternal with temporal information.
Both sides have plenty of scripture to back them up and I was tossed to and fro because I can see the merits and detractors on both sides.
Obviously no one in this thread is slacking in study and diligence.
I do see alternatives to the two sides but until we can sync our definitions we will just go round and round.

True, that!