You can do nothing, BUT
- Thread starter Dave M
- Start date
Amen to that.
James 2:26
I happen to be studying the book of James these days. It seems to say that saving faith is evidenced by works. If someone thinks they believe and are saved yet there is no change in their sinful life, they should fearfully examine their faith.
Gothedral
Active
Aye, my social media algorithm is full of street preacher encounters featuring this inevitable situation.
Fast. Pray. Cast out devils. Heal the sick. Preach The Word.
Easy to read, easy to yoke?
KingJ
Loyal
Dave, I don't think it is wise for a mature Christian to word salvation like that.
Whilst it is true that in the context of 'salvation being grafted back into God's family' there is nothing we can do. Only the sacrifice of Jesus is worthy.
It is also true that unless we repent of our sins (Luke 5:32) and pass His judgment of heart and mind, (Jer 17:9-11), to be gifted with saving faith (Rom 10:9, 1 Cor 12:3) we do not and will never ever qualify for the free gift of salvation from the cross.
And then it is also true that if we do the above we qualify to be saved from the fire of Hades per Jesus in Luke 16. Just not qualify for reconciliation with God.
So, high level, we can save ourselves from hellfire but not from being out of God's presence.
When we teach only what you have, we leave the door open for heresy like Calvinism.
KingJ
Loyal
Sounds correct but its not entirely true. The best of us can be so full of mistakes.
As Paul says in Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
We are grieved by the things of the flesh that we do (thanks to the indwelling Holy Spirit). In an indirect way that proves our salvation.
Dave M
Loyal
Life transformation happens when a person receives the grace of God, look at Paul his life went from killing believers in Christ to being the number one evangelist for Christ.
you taking that verse out of context
KingJ
Loyal
Your statement was ''everything I do proves my salvation''. I quoted that verse to prove it wrong, not to imply there is zero change in us.
We can do many things that would make many think we are not saved. Of course Paul changed. He stopped all mortal sins. He repented regularly of his venial sins. He endured suffering without bitterness to God. No disagreement on a life transformation.
It seems to me that there are many things we need to do to earn our salvation, Matthew 7:24-29, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25, 31-46, Luke 18:24-25, Luke 19:1-10, in fact it seems to me that much of Christs Ministry was spent telling those that would follow him and call him Lord and Saviour what they needed to do to receive Salvation
And how can any of us "know" that we are saved when Christ talks of the "many " that will profess his name, cast out Devils and do many wondrous acts and he will say to them "I know you not", Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13: 23-30.
It seems to me that we walk a constant tightrope between Salvation and condemnation and that where we fall is highly dependent on our professed Faith, our "Talents", and what actions we do with them. Matthew 25:14-30.
Dave M
Loyal
that was the point, glad we agree on that
KingJ
Loyal
Salvation can be very blurry from our perspective. Many think they are saved and are not. As Paul clarifies many times. One of his most popular lines being 1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
But it is very important to understand that there is absolutely no blurr, zero, none from God's perspective. Only He can judge hearts and minds at depths of intent.
Jer 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Now if you sift through the entirety of scripture you do find a few key verses that serve as an 'acid test' of salvation. I will not beat around the bush. I will get straight to the most applicable verse.
The verse that proves our Christianity and shows that we are in fact saved is.
Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Now it is important to understand that the faith and belief required to call Jesus Lord is not from ourselves. A mustered up faith like some have in unicorns and grey aliens. Faith that Jesus is Lord is dealt to each of us in 'a measure' by the Holy Spirit. After we pass His judgement of our heart and mind.
God judges the depths of our hearts and minds for sincerity in either of the following:
A - Repentance of sin Psalm 51:17
B - Servitude James 1:27
C - Martyrdom Rev 2:10
If we pass, we are washed clean of our sins by the blood of Jesus 1 John 1:7-9 and grafted into the family of God Rom 11:11-24. Given faith to believe Rom 12:3 that Jesus was not merely a man, but Lord 1 Cor 12:3.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Rom 12:3 “For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.”
Sue J Love
Loyal
Dave, I like your concept here but, if I were you, I would expand "but everything I do proves my salvation" statement. I understand where you are headed with this, and I understand your intention, but not everything that we do proves our salvation. Everything we do in the power of God and by faith in the Lord Jesus in obedience to our Lord proves our salvation. For how we live, in obedience to our Lord, gives evidence to the fact that our salvation is of God and that it is not of the flesh. Or how we live, in general, proves whether or not our salvation is genuine, of God. Our actions speak louder than words. Or our actions prove whether or not our words are genuine. Just sharing something I think may be of help. Thank you for what you shared! I am in agreement with you. Sue
Curtis
Loyal
Jesus said.....
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
No person of the Trinity acts independently of the others. What would that say about all born-again believers?
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
No person of the Trinity acts independently of the others. What would that say about all born-again believers?
Much of this issue gets cleared up when you realize that that the final protest on the day of judgement by the false workers, is their own false argument, that: "I did some things".
Now there are people such as baalam who had power given to them (by God?), but (probably) never used it properly and i do not expect to find in heaven
Twistie
Loyal
Its cause its not i or me who can do anything that is right or what many call good except the Lord has given the power to one..we are simply vessels..but i do find it awesome when i can do what is Rightousness cause it shows me that He does dwell in me n through Him i can be Nice to people lol .but naw..imma mess..
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
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I dont think its as much "Blurry" as uncertain, i dont believe that any of us can truly "know" that we are saved. And thats an important distinction to recognise, for if anyone believes themselves saved then they are not only saying that they can see into Gods mind but also their assurance of Salvation may foster an attitude of complacency and even contempt for those they consider condemned, as in the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, Luke 18:9-14, we should always adopt an attitude of humility and poverty of Spirit in our Christian lives, Matthew 5:3 ,5, to do any different is to fall into self righteousness and possibly even arrogance in our dealings with others.
Indeed many do believe themselves saved but are not, as Christ himself depicted in Matthew 7:22-23 and Matthew 25:31-46.
Thats so true, while we can indeed judge actions, only God can judge the person themselves, for he alone knows ALL the facts and his Judgement is Perfect and Eternal.
Christ also speaks of whats required for Salvation on many occasions which ive listed in my previous post, to love God with ALL your heart, Soul and mind and your Neighbour as yourself, Matthew 22: 36-40, to follow Christs teachings, Luke 6:46-49, to show Compassion for those in need, Matthew 25:31-46 and to not possess riches Mark 10:23-25.
You believe that there is a difference between calling Christ "Lord", and the calling you make after receiving the Holy Spirit, the problem is Christ said that many will call him Lord, but he will say i know you not, Matthew 7:21-23 and many will call him Lord but not do the things he teaches Luke 6:46, and in the Sheep and the Goats, Matthew 25:31-46 many who call Christ "lord" will be condemned to Hell for their lack of Compassion. Presumably they all, or most of them, believed they were in receipt of the Holy Spirit and were saved, but in fact weren't. So how do we know just when we have received the Holy Spirit, and are not one of the many that believe they have but in fact havent.
And thats the central point isnt it, none of us know just what that "pass" mark is, none of us know when we will be "washed clean of our sins by the blood of Jesus", so we must endeavour every day to follow Christs teachings to the best of our ability knowing all the time just what wretched sinners we are and how we are ever in need of Gods, Mercy, forgiveness and Grace.
From my experience over many years i have encountered a lot of complacency and self righteousness when it comes to Salvation, with many Christians seemingly assured of their own Salvation. But i believe the opposite to be true, for all the reasons ive given, and that ALL of us are walking a tightrope daily between Salvation and Damnation and that the only assurance we have is that we must try to give our ALL, our Mind, Body and Soul in the service of Christ and leave the final decision as to our Salvation or otherwise to God alone.
But surely every one of us will only do "some things", for none of us are perfect and ALL are in need of Gods Mercy and Forgiveness.
The question is why will "many" who call Christ "lord" and do many acts in his name be condemned, ?and if they are condemned then how do any of us "know" that we are in fact "saved"?.
I have never taken my Salvation as assured, in fact the opposite, i see myself as a wretched sinner who deserves condemnation, but who, through the Love of Christ and his teachings tries my best to do what my professed "Lord and Saviour" calls me to do, and "Saved" or "Condemned", that decision is not mine but Gods alone. My reason for being should be to try to bring the Light of Christs Love into a Dark and Suffering World, Matthew 5:14-16, and leave the rest to him
For as Christ said, "To whom much is given, much will be required", Luke 12 47:48 and as Christ depicted in the Parable of the Talents, Matthew 25:14-30.
But to be condemned when they profess Christ as their "Lord", prophesy in his name, cast out Devils in his name and in his name have done MANY good works, to me it doesnt seem like a Tarot card reader who "was accurate a few times" but someone who did a lot in their profession of faith and their acts to prove that faith, so what do you believe they were lacking?, and what assurance have any of us that we are not included in the "many" that Christ will say to, "I knew you not"?.