Are Gentiles under Jewish Law?

[David777]

Hello all and sundry.

Romans 7

6 But now we have been delivered from the law,
having died to what we were held by, so that we
should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not
in the oldness of the letter.

Paul is talking to the Jews specifically in Romans!

 

[Coconut]

we have been delivered from the law

I had a strange thought....(I cannot tell if it came from Father or from me...for who can really know His mind?)

When a baby is born, the Father does`nt swaddle the afterbirth (placenta) and take it home instead of the baby....ewwwwww! :shock:




2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have disappeared, and—look!—all things have become new!

 

[jiggyfly]

So ummm...remind me...who are the real Jews again?

The term "Jew" in it's first use would be those born into the tribe Judah, then later applied to the kingdom of Judah while the seceding ten tribes retained the name or term Israel, then during their captivity it was extended to all of the people of the Hebrew language/nation. :wink:

 

[brakelite]

The term "Jew" in it's first use would be those born into the tribe Judah, then later applied to the kingdom of Judah while the seceding ten tribes retained the name or term Israel, then during their captivity it was extended to all of the people of the Hebrew language/nation. :wink:

So today then, does the "Jewish" law only apply to quote: all of the people of the Hebrew language/nation and no-one else?

 

[jiggyfly]

With the exception of Judaism/Israeli proselytes, yes.

 

[brakelite]

With the exception of Judaism/Israeli proselytes, yes.

So murder, lying, theft, idolatry etc is only unlawful for the Jew, but no-one else?

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

Mosaic law was given to the Jews by God.

Laws regarding idolatry do not exist in western countries.

Mosaic law was part of a covenant between God
and Israel, this covenant was not applicable
to those outside of Israel.

This is exactly what the Bible says brakelite.

You may be confusing the Mosaic law with civil law?

 

[jiggyfly]

So murder, lying, theft, idolatry etc is only unlawful for the Jew, but no-one else?

Is it unlawful for an Australian to commit murder? If so is it because they are bound to the Jewish law?

Do you adhere to the law of Moses (Jewish law)?

 

[brakelite]

Is it unlawful for an Australian to commit murder? If so is it because they are bound to the Jewish law?

Do you adhere to the law of Moses (Jewish law)?

Now you are beginning to see....there is no such thing therefore, as I said earlier, as a "Jewish" law. They are the laws of God, revealed to the Hebrew nation at Sinai, most of which apply universally to all peoples, nations, tongues.
There are parts of that law which did specifically apply to the Hebrew nation however, they were the civil laws, which clearly cannot be applicable to us today. That doesn't mean though that all the law is thus irrelevant.God's laws as it applies to the context of man's best interest to obey is eternal and applicable to everyone. Why would God abrogate laws that are in our best interest to obey? Were they not first given because God loves us and wants the best for us? That particularly includes the moral laws of the Ten Commandments, and the principles found in the health laws. The apostles taught adherence to both...examples from Paul include, (and I paraphrase) get a job and pay your own way instead of bludging or stealing from the church (2 Thess. 3:10)....don't throttle your cow nor eat your steak rare...(Acts 15:20)
...

 

[jiggyfly]

Now you are beginning to see....there is no such thing therefore, as I said earlier, as a "Jewish" law. They are the laws of God, revealed to the Hebrew nation at Sinai, most of which apply universally to all peoples, nations, tongues.
There are parts of that law which did specifically apply to the Hebrew nation however, they were the civil laws, which clearly cannot be applicable to us today. That doesn't mean though that all the law is thus irrelevant.God's laws as it applies to the context of man's best interest to obey is eternal and applicable to everyone. Why would God abrogate laws that are in our best interest to obey? Were they not first given because God loves us and wants the best for us? That particularly includes the moral laws of the Ten Commandments, and the principles found in the health laws. The apostles taught adherence to both...examples from Paul include, (and I paraphrase) get a job and pay your own way instead of bludging or stealing from the church (2 Thess. 3:10)....don't throttle your cow nor eat your steak rare...()
...

The scriptures make no such separation of the law.

The apostles did not teach adherence to the law of Moses. Where did they teach Christians to stone adulterers and murderers?

You are misunderstanding the scriptures and the new covenant. Your trying to mix parts of the old covenant with Israel into the new covenant.

For the record this is what Paul taught.

1 Now, dear brothers and sisters —you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living?2 For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her.3 So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.5 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit
Romans 7:1-6 (NLT)

 

[B-A-C]

Somehow this thread kind of got twisted around.

First, once we are saved, we aren't penalized under the law anymore. Jesus paid the penalty for. This isn't even an argument. This thread was intended more so for the un-saved Gentiles.

So I will try to ask these questions again.
1. Can a non-Jewish person sin?

If the answer is "yes", what determines what sin is? (If it's not the OT law of the Bible, what is it?)

If the answer is "no", why do they need Jesus? (If you can't sin, why do you need to be saved?)

..on second thought, it might be better to ask the next questions once these have attempted to be resolved.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

All the peoples of the earth are under the covenant made after the flood.
Remember the rainbow,God does.
That covenant is still in force to the entire world.
That covenant given to man through Noah had no promise of eternal life and no threat of eternal torture.

1. Can a non-Jewish person sin?

By design all sin unless sin has been done away with.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Sin means missing the mark,those without a mark have nothing to miss.But since we know that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God I would venture to say that every man must have had a mark that they missed.
Unbelief is sin because believing God is the mark.

If the answer is "yes", what determines what the sin is?

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
It seems it would vary from person to person depending on their beliefs.Theoretically a gentile could live a sinless existence but even one doubt would disqualify him.

If the answer is "no", why do they need Jesus?

Even if the answer was no they would not know the way to God.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Jesus came that we may have life and that we would have it more abundantly.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus Christ, it has nothing to do with going off someplace,it is for here and now.So does that mean eternal damnation is not knowing God and Jesus?

 

[B-A-C]

Sin means missing the mark,those without a mark have nothing to miss.But since we know that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God I would venture to say that every man must have had a mark that they missed.
Unbelief is sin because believing God is the mark.

Even if the answer was no they would not know the way to God. (Is Jesus God himself? This is under dispute by some on TJ).

It seems it would vary from person to person depending on their beliefs

Jesus came that we may have life and that we would have it more abundantly.

Interesting perspective.
"missing the mark".. hmmm.. what mark? What determines what the mark is? What determines what the target is? (I feel like I'm repeating the question with different words)

"They wouldn't know the way to God" - If I never sin, why do I need God?

Abundant life could be taken a number of ways, first maybe it means a fuller richer life. Plenty of non-believers live a full rich life.
Second maybe it means a longer (eternal) life. Can we have eternal life without Jesus?
(I again, I feel like I'm repeating the question...)

Do you really believe it is our beliefs that determine sin? Or God law?
Some people don't believe in sin at all. In fact the majority of the world doesn't believe the Bible at all.
So if I don't beleive in sin, is it still sin?
If I believe murder, rape, abortion, child molesting, wife beating aren't sin, that means it isn't sin? Really?
Man is what determines what sin is, not God?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

"missing the mark".. hmmm.. what mark? What determines what the mark is? What determines what the target is?

You just hit the questions I have come to,exactly.

But I know no one but Jesus has hit it or scripture could not say all have fallen short(there are some questions and exceptions like Melchizedek).

"They wouldn't know the way to God" - If I never sin, why do I need God?

If eternal life is about not being sent to hell for eternity then I understand the question.But eternal or timeless life is for the nowbecause it is Knowing God.Without God we are trapped in time and servants to our five senses and the logic that streams them together.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Knowing God is freedom from not only sin but sickness and eventually even death.

Abundant life could be taken a number of ways, first maybe it means a fuller richer life. Plenty of non-believers live a full rich life.
Second maybe it means a longer (eternal) life.

I think your right on both counts and you have them in the correct order.

Can we have eternal life without Jesus?
Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus Christ so thats like asking if I can have eternal life without eternal life.

 

[brakelite]

The scriptures make no such separation of the law.

They do indeed...the Ten Commandments were written on stone and stored inside the ark...denoting their permanence...the laws of Moses (so-called but they were in reality God's laws also) were written on paper or parchment or whatever and stored beside the ark...That is a separation if ever there was one.

The apostles did not teach adherence to the law of Moses. Where did they teach Christians to stone adulterers and murderers?

Depends on what you term 'the law of Moses'. Certainly the apostles taught obedience to the laws of God contained in the Ten Commandments...they also taught that converted Gentiles refrain from eating blood (like rare steak). Paul also taught that we ought to glorify God in our bodies because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit. Does alcohol, tobacco, drugs, unclean foods glorify God?

You are misunderstanding the scriptures and the new covenant. Your trying to mix parts of the old covenant with Israel into the new covenant.

For the record this is what Paul taught.

1 Now, dear brothers and sisters —you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living?2 For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her.3 So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.5 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit
Romans 7:1-6 (NLT)

No-where does Romans 7 state that the law died. Jesus said that so long as heaven and earth remain, so will the law. Romans 7 is simply teaching that the law no longer condemns those in Christ, because in Him we live and have faith and hope and redemption and forgiveness. However, if we should step outside of Christ through a deliberate and premeditated decision to turn away from Him and like the dog return to its vomit, the law is back in effect because we are no longer 'in Christ'.
By our refusal to repent of certain sins we reveal we are not in Him...His death and resurrection is of no avail...the law still has dominion...it still condemns. In no way does the death and resurrection of Christ free us from obedience to God's commandments. On the contrary, it empowers us to obey. That is precisely the purpose of Christ's coming. To save us from our sins. Not by dismantling the law, but by changing lives. We call it sanctification. I think you know this.
And some parts of the law can not apply to us today, as I said the civil laws which applied to a theocratic nation, and the ceremonial laws which were indeed exclusive to the Old Covenant.

Sorry BAC for this detour...short answer...yes, Gentiles can sin...the laws of God apply universally...they need a Saviour. I know this because I am a Gentile saved by grace because I was once a sinner.

 

[jari]

hi brakelite, i have couple questions for you please...

However, if we should step outside of Christ through a deliberate and premeditated decision to turn away from Him and like the dog return to its vomit, the law is back in effect because we are no longer 'in Christ'.
By our refusal to repent of certain sins we reveal we are not in Him...His death and resurrection is of no avail...the law still has dominion...it still condemns. In no way does the death and resurrection of Christ free us from obedience to God's commandments.

can you back these underlined statements with scripture?

isnt it God's grace that we are in christ at the first place? i doupt anyone can put them self in christ by obedience. especially because salvation is of grace and not of works.

if Christ died for sins, why certain sins would forbid grace from us? and where you get the list of those sins?

does not God's grace give us forgiveness on knowing God's will and carrying it out as well?
if God's commandments can be efficently carried out in spirit and sins are forgiven then not knowing God's will must be also forgiven. as our capability to carry out commandments depends on many things like our godliness. But if we are saved by grace and not how godly we are then why would God judge us of not being good servants?
i believe its fully grace we are saved regardless of our response or effort. if that's so then keeping God's commandments cant be determining factor of our salvation.

God bless.

 

[brakelite]

hi brakelite, i have couple questions for you please...



can you back these underlined statements with scripture?

isnt it God's grace that we are in christ at the first place? i doupt anyone can put them self in christ by obedience. especially because salvation is of grace and not of works.

if Christ died for sins, why certain sins would forbid grace from us? and where you get the list of those sins?

does not God's grace give us forgiveness on knowing God's will and carrying it out as well?
if God's commandments can be efficently carried out in spirit and sins are forgiven then not knowing God's will must be also forgiven. as our capability to carry out commandments depends on many things like our godliness. But if we are saved by grace and not how godly we are then why would God judge us of not being good servants?
i believe its fully grace we are saved regardless of our response or effort. if that's so then keeping God's commandments cant be determining factor of our salvation.

God bless.

Let's cut to the chase. What you are suggesting, and several others also, is that a Christian can sin with impunity. The laws of God have no jurisdiction so to speak, for the Christian they are null and void. God's grace is sufficient to cover even deliberate premeditated murder, regardless of the killers willingness to repent or not. Please tell me this is not so, but it sure sounds like, because for years now I have been constantly non-plussed at the determination by so many professed Christians to find any reason to avoid obedience, even to claiming that the laws of God are no longer valid. I wonder some times what it is so many are afraid of? What is it about the commandments of God that are so objectionable to so many? My only conclusion is that there is something they are doing wrong which they cherish, and in attempting to justify it they claim "no law, therefore no sin!".
Yeah, I know. It's been said before that if someone kills someone they couldn't have been a Christian in the first place. Tell me Jari, since becoming a Christian, have you ever been unreasonably angry with anyone? (Matt. 5:21,22) I know I have, and was convicted immediately afterwards prompting me to repent smartly. By the way, I personally know several people who are praying-church going- Bible reading Jesus professing 'Christians' who are living in adulterous relationships or they have never formerly married the one they are living with. Can they continue to do so with impunity? Does the law have no say in ordering their lives? Are they so free they can continue in their illicit relationships (or are they illicit???) without fear of condemantion because they claim to be "in Christ"????? Is obedience to God's commandments just a simple non-essential option having no effect on our ultimate destiny???

You said quote: our capability to carry out commandments depends on many things like our godliness. I would suggest that our godliness is dependant upon our obedience. And our obedience is dependant upon just one thing. Our abiding in the vine. Our attachment to Jesus. Period. Obedience is a fruit of our growing in Him.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

And please Jari, what you say here:" i doupt anyone can put them self in christ by obedience. especially because salvation is of grace and not of works."......no-one is suggesting otherwise.

Obedience sure can't get you to heaven, but disobedience sure can get you to hell.

 

[jari]

Yes brakelite bible says law is not in effect against us.

but there are other factors the we should cherish. like the bible says "....building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost," - jude 1:20

you can look your spiritual life in another perspective than of the laws. what purpose does the law serve anyway? can it make one spiritual, no it cannot.

And we should resist sin, atleast not give into sins just because we are saved by grace. but of course this happens knowing theres no condemnation. but we have grace.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

i dont think this verse is talking about simply obeying God's written commandments. its more like obeying God in submission to Godly living and relationship with Him.

Obedience sure can't get you to heaven, but disobedience sure can get you to hell.

very self contradicting statement. as obedience is opposide of disobedience.

 

[philosopher]

Sorry BAC for this detour...short answer...yes, Gentiles can sin...the laws of God apply universally...they need a Saviour. I know this because I am a Gentile saved by grace because I was once a sinner.

You still are a sinner, we all are. Just because you may have ceased from the more obvious pre-meditated sins, doesn't mean that you have now perfected your flesh.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. - 1 John 1:8

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. - Isaiah 64:6

 

[B-A-C]

.
You just hit the questions I have come to,exactly.

Sorry BAC for this detour...short answer...yes, Gentiles can sin...the laws of God apply universally...they need a Saviour. I know this because I am a Gentile saved by grace because I was once a sinner.

Thanks, we are getting closer
We agree on the "can we sin part", But I still believe it's God's Word and God's Law that determine what sin is, not us.
Otherwise no two of us would ever agree on what sin is.