Are You Saved By Grace or Faith Alone

[Chad]

You go on believing your, what I know to be false gospel.

I've known sister fragrant grace for years and she does not teach false gospel. You're a new member here and you do not know her to make a foolish claim like you did.

Jesus has taught me and all I am supposed to do is tell people what he has taught me.

Your attitude is prideful. You think others are not taught too that you need to make this statement? Are you not entitled to be corrected by others or only you can correct? Do you think you can be a preacher at the pulpit with this attitude and the sheep will listen carefully?

You are wrong, but I don’t care.

Bad attitude. Lose it or find another forum. No excuses.

 

[ph8th]

When people try and tell me that a scripture is saying something that it does not say, then I know they are wrong, and ignore them.


John says that a Child of God does not sin. That is scripture, and I don’t need to tell people what John meant.


(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”


If I am misunderstanding what John said then the Holy Spirit will tell me.

1 John 1:7-10 (NASB)

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[Spockrates]

@RJ & @Spockrates

Please change your tone, both of you. Respect the community, the OP and don't waste arguing. If you can't hold your tongue and express patience as Paul & Christ taught, don't say anything at all and do not participate in this thread. You're both acting rudely towards one another. Step back, think about it and take a break.

This is supposed to be a place to study the Word, not argue. If one doesn't have a teachable spirit, then the Holy Spirit will deal with that person.

Will do. Thank you, Chad.

 

[Johnlove]

1 John 1:7-10 (NASB)

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Read the scripture below, because you obviously don’t understand first John’s letter.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liarand his word has no place in our lives.”

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless?

Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[amadeus2]

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

And when is it that a person comes to know God so well as this? The 12 original apostles were with Jesus almost continuously for more than 3 years and they still did not know God so well. Peter, who was anointed with words to speak up on that day of Pentecost some 2000 years ago, nevertheless messed up more than once after that. Are we better than Peter? Do we know God as well as Paul?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly..." I Cor 13:12

That's Paul and all of us who have not yet overcome as Jesus overcame. We are not yet seeing God face to face although our vision may be clearer than when we first believed.

 

[RJ]

"For now we see through a glass, darkly..." I Cor 13:12
That's Paul and all of us who have not yet overcome as Jesus overcame. We are not yet seeing God face to face although our vision may be clearer than when we first believed.

One of my favorite Chapters of 1 Corinthians: " and we will know as well as we are known"!

 

[RJ]

don't say anything at all and do not participate in this thread.

I have already done so regarding this thread with Socrates and I apologize to everyone!

 

[Johnlove]

And when is it that a person comes to know God so well as this? The 12 original apostles were with Jesus almost continuously for more than 3 years and they still did not know God so well. Peter, who was anointed with words to speak up on that day of Pentecost some 2000 years ago, nevertheless messed up more than once after that. Are we better than Peter? Do we know God as well as Paul?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly..." I Cor 13:12

That's Paul and all of us who have not yet overcome as Jesus overcame. We are not yet seeing God face to face although our vision may be clearer than when we first believed.

The following speaks to those who want to believe Spiritual Christian still sin.


Yes sinners are so desperate to believe that everyone sins, no matter if he or she are being led by Jesus/Holy Spirit that they will even make an assumption that Peter and Paul still sinned after receiving the Holy Spirit.

To be consistent with scripture, and believe Paul, and Peter sinned after receiving the Holy Spirit, people would need to believe Paul and Perter were not yet Children of God.



(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God”


People’s assumption that the people Peter picked to eat lunch with was a deliberate rebellion against Jesus Christ his Lord and God, is done even though it makes the bible contradict its self.


(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”


(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”


(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”


Paul tells us no one can judge a spiritual man.


(1 Corinthians 2:15) “A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men.”


Romans seven has Paul telling us that before one has been given the Holy Spirit to teach and give one the grace to be righteous, it was next to impossible.


If this is not true, then Paul had to have been given the revelation on how God made it possible for us to live without sin, between the time it took to write Romans seven, and Romans eight.


In Romans eight Paul tells us how God made it possible for one to never sin again.


(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”


(Romans 8: 4-5) “This was so that the Law's requirements might be fully satisfied in us as we direct our lives not by our natural inclinations but by the Spirit.”

You are wrong about Paul and Peter sinning after becoming children of God.

 

[Johnlove]

All these people who use their understanding of the written Word that tells them Peter and Paul continued to sin after becoming children of God, to justify their continuing to sin.


I can just see it now. Those people telling God; but I read in scripture Peter and Paul sinned.


Then Jesus saying did you not read the rest of scripture?


(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”





God’s Word tells us that a Spiritual Christian will not sin. But those who need to feel righteous even though they sin, have to ignore what scripture tells them.




(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”



(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -------------“



(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”



(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”



(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already; the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

 

[amadeus2]

The following speaks to those who want to believe Spiritual Christian still sin.

What is a spiritual Christian? Does scripture use that phrase?

Yes sinners are so desperate to believe that everyone sins, no matter if he or she are being led by Jesus/Holy Spirit that they will even make an assumption that Peter and Paul still sinned after receiving the Holy Spirit.

I believe that there have been and are overcomers. Anyone who has believed must have overcome in part, but there likely remains some things to overcome.


Believers would not be believers if they were never led bythe Holy Spirit. However, after receiving the Holy Spirit we still must choose to listen and to follow that Spirit rather than other spirits every time there is a choice.

All of us need to hear the words of James calling us double minded for surely any believer who has not yet overcome everything in his own carnal world is double minded.

To be consistent with scripture, and believe Paul, and Peter sinned after receiving the Holy Spirit, people would need to believe Paul and Peter were not yet Children of God.

What is a child of God? When a baby is born to his natural mother, does he come out speaking the language of a mature adult? Does he walk and run without growing and learning?


Do we not have to eat and drink in order to grow? Who or what is the quickening Spirit? What is it that is quickened (brought to Life) within us?


"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6


Believe it or not a child is not born full-grownin the flesh or in the Spirit of God:


"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."Luke 2:52

(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God”

Exactly so!

People’s assumption that the people Peter picked to eat lunch with was a deliberate rebellion against Jesus Christ his Lord and God, is done even though it makes the bible contradict its self.

No assumption or presumption here. Don't put words my mouth for that I believe, would be presumption.


There is sin that is not unto death, is there not?

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work"


(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”


(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

Exactly so!

Paul tells us no one can judge a spiritual man.


(1 Corinthians 2:15) “A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men.”

Ok, who is that is judging anyone here?

Romans seven has Paul telling us that before one has been given the Holy Spirit to teach and give one the grace to be righteous, it was next to impossible.


If this is not true, then Paul had to have been given the revelation on how God made it possible for us to live without sin, between the time it took to write Romans seven, and Romans eight.


In Romans eight Paul tells us how God made it possible for one to never sin again.


(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

Yes, it is possible to live without sinning, but who is already there? Who but God is able to say?


Who is it that has the Holy Spirit in him now? Is the Holy Spirit the truth or that which brings a man to Life, which is Jesus?

(Romans 8: 4-5) “This was so that the Law's requirements might be fully satisfied in us as we direct our lives not by our natural inclinations but by the Spirit.”

Exactly so!

You are wrong about Paul and Peter sinning after becoming children of God.

Did I ever say that they had sinned? Since I did not, how is it that I am now wrong?

 

[Johnlove]

What is a spiritual Christian? Does scripture use that phrase?

Paul describes two different types of Christians in the following scripture. He first describes what has been from my experience, the majority of Christians. Infants in Christ.


Next he explains the infants in Christ are no yet spiritual. That will make the infants in Christ, Spiritual Christians if they became spiritual, is that not right?


(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people.

 

[RJ]

All these people who use their understanding of the written Word that tells them Peter and Paul continued to sin after becoming children of God, to justify their continuing to sin.

I think it behoove you to take a hard look at Roman 7 and see where Paul admittedly struggle with sin. And, through the grace of God and the finished work of Jesus, Paul stated the answer to struggling with sin in Romans 8:1 .

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -------------“

This is a hypothetical inference. I think the key here is " deliberate" ! You can't find anything in scripture that says a true "Born Again" Christian, one with Christ in them, will ever deliberately or willfully sin. Repentant yes but deliberately, no!

 

[Johnlove]

What is a child of God? When a baby is born to his natural mother, does he come out speaking the language of a mature adult? Does he walk and run without growing and learning?

A Child of God is a person who after he or she has been given the Holy Spirit, listen and obeys the Holy Spirit tells him or her.


By obeying through the grace the Holy Spirit give him or her, they then are living all of God’s Commandments, and that mean they no longer sin.


(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”

 

[Johnlove]

This is a hypothetical inference. I think the key here is " deliberate" ! You can't find anything in scripture that says a true "Born Again" Christian, one with Christ in them, will ever deliberately or willfully sin. Repentant yes but deliberately, no!

I am not sure just what you are saying.


John say a Child of God can’t sin. He does not say deliberately sin.


But I believe that the people who he was writing to knew that he meant would not commit a sin leading to death.


Yet that is just an assumption on my part. I know personally that God has made sure that I no longer sin, and that mean any wrongdoing.


(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”


Notice John tells us that in God there is no sin. He tells us that if one sins he or she has never seen Jesus nor knows Jesus.


I have seen Jesus, and I know him.


Scripture gives us an example of Christians who must have been given the knowledge of the truth, and deliberately sinned.


(Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira


It seems that God did not take away a Child of God’s free will. But it seems in John’s mind that he could not visualize anyone who had been given the knowledge of the truth, deliberately committing a sin.

 

[RJ]

(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”

No, I think you have miss understood this verse and possibly miss-sated it! The overwhelming majority of translations don't says no child of god sins. Here is what many say:

• don't commit sin
• don't deliberately sin
• don't continue to sin
• don't practice sinning
• etc.

The accurate translation is not, no sin but don't willfully sin after receiving the Holy Spirit!

 

[ph8th]

Proverbs 26:4-14 (NASB)
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.

 

[Johnlove]

No, I think you have miss understood this verse and possibly miss-sated it! The overwhelming majority of translations don't says no child of god sins. Here is what many say:

• don't commit sin
• don't deliberately sin
• don't continue to sin
• don't practice sinning
• etc.

The accurate translation is not, no sin but don't willfully sin after receiving the Holy Spirit!

Yes people who still sin and want to feel righteous need to do something, and changing the wording of scripture is just one of the ways they have found to do that.


Remember a sinner is of the devil, and the devil will do most anything to keep people sinning.


(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because is of the devil. The devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”


How do your versions of the bible get around the following scripture?


(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”



(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”


Did Jesus just not make it a practice to sin?

 

[RJ]

I have seen Jesus, and I know him.

Literally seeing him is impossible.
I actually started the original thread on this initial discussion and it is straying a bit here.
You apparently have your mind made up on this current flow about sin and you have that right, so I will politely remove myself from discussion with you and move on. God Bless you and your future knowledge and spiritual growth!

 

[Johnlove]

Literally seeing him is impossible.
I actually started the original thread on this initial discussion and it is straying a bit here.
You apparently have your mind made up on this current flow about sin and you have that right, so I will politely remove myself from discussion with you and move on. God Bless you and your future knowledge and spiritual growth!

Paul saw Jesus’


(1 Corinthians 9:1) “I, personally, am free: I am an apostle and I have seen Jesus our Lord.”


Jesus said he would show himself to those who loved him.


(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”

 

[norapture]

Paul saw Jesus’


(1 Corinthians 9:1) “I, personally, am free: I am an apostle and I have seen Jesus our Lord.”


Jesus said he would show himself to those who loved him.


(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”

Hey Johnlove may I ask , what translation of bible do you use?