Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

[RJ]

I would definitely say this was one of the primary points of the epistle. There were obviously those legalistic Jews who were combining the old system with the new and were getting immature believers to practice these rituals when they were free from them. However, I also believe the author is writing to those who are on the fence and urging them to believe before it is too late. Lastly, I believe the author was using an example of apostates to warn the first 2 groups of what not to become.

NO! Once you are "Born Of The Spirit", it is impossible to convert to Apostasy......this is what Paul is saying!!!

 

[RJ]

I was saved on January 14, 2001.

But a couple of months ago (May, that is), I realized I no longer believed anything I once did. I'm proud to say that I have no need of salvation, and so have renounced my faith. There's nothing to fear, guys. You too can lose your salvation! It's even easier than accepting a "free" gift.

If this is the case, you were never indwelt with the Spirit and saved in the first place. In Hebrews 6:4-6, Paul is talking about you!

Paul says if you reject the Spirit of God, you are to be pitied above all men! Please turn to the Lord and ask him to come into your life!

 

[kevinlb63]

a state of hopelessness

a state of hopelessness man you are wise!!! i will stick to gods word
and hope others can see that you dont realy care and make up your own doctrin.
so now you say the unforgivable sin is hopelessness........

 

[rojoloco]

Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied (preached) in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out demons, and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Yes, my reader, it is possible to work in the name of Christ, and even to preach in His name, and though the world knows us, and the Church knows us, yet to be unknown to the Lord! How necessary it is then to find out where we really are; to examine ourselves and see whether we be in the faith; to measure ourselves by the Word of God and see if we are being deceived by our subtle Enemy; to find out whether we are building our house upon the sand, or whether it is erected on the Rock which is Christ Jesus. rojoloco you think of your self as wise and prophesied ! false doctrin. that is on you.
i just said simon denyed christ. and he did .

This is where you still do not have an understanding of the preservation of the saints. You are either saved by Christ or deceived by Satan. However, once you are saved, you cannot be un-saved. Once you have received eternal life, you cannot transform it into temporary life. Simon did deny Christ and I showed you how that has no bearing on NT salvation whatsoever.

 

[rojoloco]

[/COLOR]

NO! Once you are "Born Of The Spirit", it is impossible to convert to Apostasy......this is what Paul is saying!!!

We both agree on this so there is no need to beat a dead horse. We both agree if you are truly saved, you can never lose your salvation. However, there are many instances of Scripture telling us to press on. For instance, Paul tells the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 9 to keep running the race in such a way that they might win. If they are truly saved, it is obvious they will win. However, it is still a gently word of encouragement to fight the good fight. In much the same way, the author of Hebrews is telling the true believers to fight the good fight. While they cannot fall into apostasy if they are truly saved, he is still warning them of the dangers of it and encouraging them to press onward. At the same time, he is encouraging those still on the fence (who have not fully accepted Christ as Lord) to not fall into that trap.

 

[rojoloco]

a state of hopelessness man you are wise!!! i will stick to gods word
and hope others can see that you dont realy care and make up your own doctrin.
so now you say the unforgivable sin is hopelessness........

Before salvation, we all cursed God and blasphemed the Spirit with our very nature. If the unforgivable sin was simply blaspheming the Spirit, none would ever be saved. By your doctrine, you are compelled to declare one sin is greater than another and that we are all false converts because our fallen nature condemned us with no hope of salvation. I do not think this is what you believe but the loose ends in your theological stance are binding you. It does not hold water, spoils the gospel, and burns like chaff.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

you missed the point it does not have any thing to do with the old or the new testiment ! it is the point that even simon peter who had touch and seen and loved jesus could deny him! and did deny him!!! 3 times

Actually, both of the events you refer to involving Simon Peter occurred in the Old Testament time period. Jesus' entire public ministry, death, and resurrection occurred during the Old Testament time period since the New Testament period doesn't start until the Spirit descended on the disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, which came more than a month after Jesus' resurrection.

SLE

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Actually, both of the events you refer to involving Simon Peter occurred in the Old Testament time period. Jesus' entire public ministry, death, and resurrection occurred during the Old Testament time period since the New Testament period doesn't start until the Spirit descended on the disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, which came more than a month after Jesus' resurrection.

SLE

Are you sure Ed? The thief on the cross? Jesus told him "Today you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus said "I am the way...." See? The thief turned to Jesus and was accepted even before Jesus died. Now what?

 

[rojoloco]

Are you sure Ed? The thief on the cross? Jesus told him "Today you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus said "I am the way...." See? The thief turned to Jesus and was accepted even before Jesus died. Now what?

This is actually a misunderstanding of what Paradise is. Many believe Paradise to be Heaven. However, this is not the case at all. First of all, we see that the thief would be with Jesus on that day. Second, we know Jesus was not in Heaven the day he died because John 20:17 (post resurrection) tells us he had not yet returned to the Father. This means both he and the thief were somewhere else during those 3 days.

To get a better understanding, you can read a sermon I wrote on the subject that I delivered last year.
Word of Knowledge: #26) Where Did He Go?

 

[El Hombre viejo]

This is actually a misunderstanding of what Paradise is. Many believe Paradise to be Heaven. However, this is not the case at all. First of all, we see that the thief would be with Jesus on that day. Second, we know Jesus was not in Heaven the day he died because John 20:17 (post resurrection) tells us he had not yet returned to the Father. This means both he and the thief were somewhere else during those 3 days.

To get a better understanding, you can read a sermon I wrote on the subject that I delivered last year.
Word of Knowledge: #26) Where Did He Go?

Paradise=
1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5) heaven

So it remains to be seen...Is what you say fact or merely church doctrines?

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Paradise=
1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5) heaven

So it remains to be seen...Is what you say fact or merely church doctrines?

Sorry Roj I mean the part about what paradise is...

 

[Tusk Barnes]

If this is the case, you were never indwelt with the Spirit and saved in the first place. In Hebrews 6:4-6, Paul is talking about you!

Paul says if you reject the Spirit of God, you are to be pitied above all men! Please turn to the Lord and ask him to come into your life!

Hi there. We haven't met, but you seem to think you know a lot about me. You do not. I have read the bible religiously once through, every year for the past nine years. I know exactly what Hebrews says. I know exactly what the rest of the bible says. It also declares multiple times that the earth is flat. It also states that when Jesus died, the dead buried outside Jerusalem rose from their graves and walked into the city three days later. None of this is true. So forgive me, but you're going to have to use some other reference to justify saying I was never born of the spirit. You can start by defining Spirit. Thanks

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Hi there. We haven't met, but you seem to think you know a lot about me. You do not. I have read the bible religiously once through, every year for the past nine years. I know exactly what Hebrews says. I know exactly what the rest of the bible says. It also declares multiple times that the earth is flat. It also states that when Jesus died, the dead buried outside Jerusalem rose from their graves and walked into the city three days later. None of this is true. So forgive me, but you're going to have to use some other reference to justify saying I was never born of the spirit. You can start by defining Spirit. Thanks

LOL Tusk the bible says the Earth is flat?! Where?:shock: Oops!! I reread. LOL

 

[rojoloco]

Paradise=
1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5) heaven

So it remains to be seen...Is what you say fact or merely church doctrines?

I fully agree with option #3 in that list (as you well know if you read my sermon). My stance is partially based on early Church doctrine but, more importantly, it is based on Scripture. What got me pondering the subject was the Apostle's Creed where it says Jesus descended into Hell. I noticed the newer revised Apostle's Creed has omitted this line. My research began with this "discovery." From there, it was an all out Scripture hunt. Based on both Scripture, logic, and lastly, the stance of the early Church, my conclusion is that of #3 in your list above. Again, I encourage you to read my sermon to really get an understanding of where I am coming from as well as why.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

I fully agree with option #3 in that list (as you well know if you read my sermon). My stance is partially based on early Church doctrine but, more importantly, it is based on Scripture. What got me pondering the subject was the Apostle's Creed where it says Jesus descended into Hell. I noticed the newer revised Apostle's Creed has omitted this line. My research began with this "discovery." From there, it was an all out Scripture hunt. Based on both Scripture, logic, and lastly, the stance of the early Church, my conclusion is that of #3 in your list above. Again, I encourage you to read my sermon to really get an understanding of where I am coming from as well as why.

I understand your stance on this and I won't contest it. I've always thought the same but this afternoon when I was meditating on it I kind of had a flash of something.... Not finished yet.

I remember the Apostle's Creed. Are you a Romanist or ex-Romanist then? I was raised in the Romanist church. Good folks for the most part.

 

[rojoloco]

Hi there. We haven't met, but you seem to think you know a lot about me. You do not. I have read the bible religiously once through, every year for the past nine years. I know exactly what Hebrews says. I know exactly what the rest of the bible says. It also declares multiple times that the earth is flat. It also states that when Jesus died, the dead buried outside Jerusalem rose from their graves and walked into the city three days later. None of this is true. So forgive me, but you're going to have to use some other reference to justify saying I was never born of the spirit. You can start by defining Spirit. Thanks

First off, knowing what the Bible says is not synonymous with salvation. The Pharisees also prided themselves on knowing the Scriptures from memory but we see how that turned out. That being said, you will notice my reply to you was not quite so straightforward as I have no way of knowing your status with God.

Now, on to the points you brought up. Nowhere does the Bible say the Earth is flat. In fact, many times, it indicates that it is a sphere which is amazing being that most people at that time DID think it was flat. The Bible also indicates that the Earth revolves around the sun which was unheard of at that point in time. Your claim that it teaches a flat Earth is most often a weak attempt to disprove the Bible by those who don't really know what it does teach.

Your next claim is quite awkward. You just got on to RJ for making a claim that you say he can not know for fact yet here you are making one yourself. You say the dead never rose and entered the city. Were you there? Even if you want to take away the divinity of Scripture, one must still give it a minimal respect as being a historic document that has yet to be proven wrong.

 

[rojoloco]

I understand your stance on this and I won't contest it. I've always thought the same but this afternoon when I was meditating on it I kind of had a flash of something.... Not finished yet.

I remember the Apostle's Creed. Are you a Romanist or ex-Romanist then? I was raised in the Romanist church. Good folks for the most part.

Actually, my wife used to be Lutheran before converting to Southern Baptist and they read the Apostle's Creed as part of their liturgy. We were visiting her family and had gone to her old church. I had never taken much notice of the Creed so I looked it up when I got home. That was where I noticed 2 different versions; the original and the modern revised version.

I have never been Catholic though. I am assuming this is what you mean by Romanist, correct? Romans Catholics can be very good people (as can anybody) but I have major beef with much of the doctrine that comes out of the RC Church. Then again, maybe you are referring to something else.

I am interested in hearing about this "flash" you describe though. I know many people take issue with my stance while many others agree with it. I believe it to be the only stance supported by Scripture to be honest.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Actually, my wife used to be Lutheran before converting to Southern Baptist and they read the Apostle's Creed as part of their liturgy. We were visiting her family and had gone to her old church. I had never taken much notice of the Creed so I looked it up when I got home. That was where I noticed 2 different versions; the original and the modern revised version.

I have never been Catholic though. I am assuming this is what you mean by Romanist, correct? Romans Catholics can be very good people (as can anybody) but I have major beef with much of the doctrine that comes out of the RC Church. Then again, maybe you are referring to something else.

I am interested in hearing about this "flash" you describe though. I know many people take issue with my stance while many others agree with it. I believe it to be the only stance supported by Scripture to be honest.

Roj I really don't like to 'take issue' with things which will not affect anyones salvation And this in one of those.

The other "flash" I learned a long time ago....never teach or share something that you are just learning.... It could involve too much backtracking or can lead others into problems. I'll tell ya when I've got it all. I hope you understand?
I too dislike the Roman Catholic religion. Its predatory.

 

[rojoloco]

Roj I really don't like to 'take issue' with things which will not affect anyones salvation And this in one of those.

The other "flash" I learned a long time ago....never teach or share something that you are just learning.... It could involve too much backtracking or can lead others into problems. I'll tell ya when I've got it all. I hope you understand?
I too dislike the Roman Catholic religion. Its predatory.

I can totally respect your decision to wait. While I agree it is best to never teach something you are just learning, I have found that casual discussion can sometimes lead to accelerated learning and can actually prevent back tracking at a later point. Of course, this is not always so. Again, I can respect your decision to hold off. Looking forward to hearing the finished "product."

I agree that Roman Catholicism is predatory. History has shown a tendency to absorb false teachings instead of rejecting them. This has only led to a "universal" church that flows forth false doctrine from within instead of battling that which already exists in the world.

 

[RJ]

Hi there. We haven't met, but you seem to think you know a lot about me. You do not. I have read the bible religiously once through, every year for the past nine years. I know exactly what Hebrews says. I know exactly what the rest of the bible says. It also declares multiple times that the earth is flat. It also states that when Jesus died, the dead buried outside Jerusalem rose from their graves and walked into the city three days later. None of this is true. So forgive me, but you're going to have to use some other reference to justify saying I was never born of the spirit. You can start by defining Spirit. Thanks

No problem, I will let the Bible define Spirit but first, since it is true that we have never met could you please:
1.Share with me how you know the Bible perfectly because I have never known anyone like that, except maybe God!
2. Could you show the multiple verses that show that the earth is flat?
3. Where does the Bible say it is false about the buried dead not being resurrected?
4. And, since we never met, where exactly did I say that you were not born of the Spirit?

Also, just to make sure we are on the same page, this is a Talk Jesus Forum and not a Anti-Jesus Talk Forum:wink: