B-A-C
Loyal
Even if this was true, how do you account for all the dozens of verses of people coming back to life, even those destined for the lake of fire to be tormented forever.
Can God Die ?
- Thread starter AntonGoldnagel
- Start date
Even if this was true, how do you account for all the dozens of verses of people coming back to life, even those destined for the lake of fire to be tormented forever.
B-A-C
Loyal
B-A-C
Loyal
While I tend to agree with your point here, this is still a possibility that this happened.
Mark 9:2 Six days later, Jesus *took with Him Peter and James and John, and *brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them;
Mark 9:3 and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
Mark 9:4 Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus.
Mark 9:5 Peter *said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
Where were Moses and Elijah for the several hundred years before this?
Luke 9:28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray.
Luke 9:29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming.
Luke 9:30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah,
Luke 9:31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luke 9:32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him.
Luke 9:33 And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah"—not realizing what he was saying.
Did Jesus "jerk them" from their clouds and harps in heaven?
If not for the fact these postings following each other, and were directed to different individuals, I might have ignored them altogether!
You may not realize it, but at times you can be rather entertaining.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
Rhema
Active
KJ, I already dealt with that issue here: LINK. But perhaps you may have missed it.
-------------------------
My problem with the English word "eternal" is that it doesn't adequately convey the meaning of Greek word used.
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of G166 (eternal) damnation:
(Mark 3:29 KJV)I provide a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G166 (αἰώνιος) aiōnios
A. 2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual,
Basically, aiōnios tries to describe decisions or conditions that cannot be rescinded, meaning they are "Permanent." (No "Biden" pardons allowed here.) The English word "Eternal" tends to carry the implication that a person is alive and conscious, whereas "Permanent" does not. We can then look at the word "damnation."
And once more I provide a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G2920 (κρίσις) krisis
A.separating, distinguishing,
2. decision, judgement
So Jesus is speaking of a person who receives a Permanent Decision with regards to the condition of their inheritance of Eternal (Permanent) Life. If one does not receive permanent life, one receives permanent death.
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation permanent judgement.
(Mark 3:28-29 KJV+)Given that the opposite of Life is Death, and that the Dead know nothing, I rather think that the teachings of Jesus make it quite clear that those who do not receive Permanent Life are, in a word, obliterated. At some point, they will no longer exist. This is Permanent Death.
I know "Obliterationism" is not a popular Catholic or even Evangelical view, but despite your scorn, it's the one most accurate according to actual scripture. (You are, though, quite welcome to present scripture that might suggest otherwise. I would welcome that.)
The thing about conscious living torment in Hell (forever) is that religious folk find it extremely useful to use FEAR as a recruiting tool and are quite reluctant to give it up. Should we use the FEAR of hell to cudgel people into conversion? Or do we preach the Good News that it is the goodness of God that leadeth to repentance?
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
(Romans 2:4 KJV)I've heard enough Fire and Brimstone sermons to know that this is not the Way of the Gospel. (Blood curdling sermons, even, from a former New Jersey State Trooper.) It's all fear mongering and should have no place in the Kingdom.
The other thing about conscious living torment in Hell is that, well... living things aren't DEAD. So we wind up with a doctrine that presents dead people as alive.
(How mixed up is that?)With regards to your accusation of bias, I've given you links to an actual lexicon so that you learn what the actual Greek words mean, so you can reject your own bias that you learned from your church tradition.
But this whole idea of dead people actually being alive in torment forever is ridiculous. Dead people aren't alive. They're dead.
Now THAT has got to be the most mixed up rational that you've ever posted. How does "free will" have anything to do with the dead being actually dead instead of being alive in torment forever ?? And you've done this on more than one occasion, trying to link people with Calvinism so you can reject them out of hand. Maybe you could be so kind and clarify this rather twisted statement.
Exactly, so how is keeping someone alive in torment forever even remotely good? (Regardless of the level of torment.)
Major problems arise when people create theological doctrines based upon English words. You read "eternal" and think "forever" while anyone reading Greek two thousand years ago would read "permanent."
God's Peace,
Rhema
(I saw what you wrote earlier. The question is did you edit your post or another?
)
Rhema
Active
Like I said, no good has ever come from that book.
Rhema
(And the irony was on purpose. Glad somebody was listening.
)
Rhema
Active
That's a valid example. However, I have heard from many church traditions that a demon was the source of Endor's power and pretended to be Samuel. If Samuel had been dwelling with God, how could the Witch have power over God enough to pull Samuel back?
Understood. My belief is that the text does not provide sufficient information for one to make a decision one way or another.
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods (ELOHIM) ascending out of the earth.
(1 Samuel 28:13 KJV)The OT Jewish perspective (which the Sadducees believed) is that when a person dies, the body returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God whereupon it is subsumed. There is no being alive after death, until a Resurrection occurs. The idea of an underworld or place where dead people are alive (called Hades) was adopted from Greek philosophy into Judaism, whereupon we get the term Hellenistic Jews. Plato presented the view that YOU = Body+Soul+Spirit. The Mosaic view was YOU=Soul=Body+Spirit.
But Peter DID !!!! Peter asked that question to Jesus:
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
(John 21:20-23 KJV)And now you know why it should be called the Gospel according to Lazarus, instead of John.
Again, understood. But there are sufficient reasons to consider the bosom of Abraham to be allegorical, and there are more than sufficient reasons to know that the book of Revelation shouldn't be in the canon. (It's not in ours.)
God bless,
Rhema
Rhema
Active
My apologies, I wasn't aware I was speaking with an expert on Modalism.
Modalists
The Monarchians properly so-called (Modalists) exaggerated the oneness of the Father and the Son so as to make them but one Person; thus the distinctions in the Holy Trinity are energies or modes, not Persons: God the Father appears on earth as Son; hence it seemed to their opponents that Monarchians made the Father suffer and die. In the West they were called Patripassians, whereas in the East they are usually called Sabellians
- From LINK to Newadvent.org
I don't make them but one person. As I said, the Father and Jesus are distinct and separate persons. Jesus being the double of the person of the Father, but with all his human experiences that the Father does not have.
Seriously? You need me to quote Luther's own words? (Amazing.)Now there's a subjective statement.
It's a fool's game to rely on English words. And you should know this by now.
I provide a LINK the Liddell Scott Lexicon for "destroy"
A. destroy utterly, kill
B. perish, die, cease to exist
(Your tanks have not ceased to exist.)
Rhema
B-A-C
Loyal
I'm glad we agree.
Neither have the people who come to back to life to face Eternal life or Eternal punishment.
Rhema
Active
Learning harp?
Well there were clouds....
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
(Mark 9:7-8 KJV)While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
(Luke 9:34 KJV)Rhema
And just for the sake of fun...
Who appeared in glory, and spake of his Exodus which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
(Luke 9:31 KJV)
Rhema
Active
I'm rather done with your cryptic one liners. Either explain or listen to the sound of the crickets.
Rhema
Curtis
Loyal
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal (G166) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (G166) life.”
It appears those who will be eternally punished will be punished the exact length of time as those who will have eternal life.
B-A-C
Loyal
There are two words used for eternal in the Bible, one is aion, which can be a period of time.
But the other word is aionios, which is not a defined period of time, It really is eternal, forever, non-ending.
This is the word used in these verses.
Mat_19:16, Mat_25:46, Mar_3:29, Mar_10:17, Mar_10:30, Luk_10:25, Luk_18:18, Joh_3:15, Joh_4:36, Joh_5:39, Joh_6:54, Joh_6:68, Joh_10:28, Joh_12:25, Joh_17:2-3 (2), Act_13:48, Rom_2:7, Rom_5:21, Rom_6:23, 2Co_4:17-18 (2), 2Co_5:1, 1Ti_6:12, 1Ti_6:19, 2Ti_2:10, Tit_1:2, Tit_3:7, Heb_5:9, Heb_6:2, Heb_9:12, Heb_9:14-15 (2), 1Pe_5:10, 1Jn_1:2, 1Jn_2:25, 1Jn_3:15, 1Jn_5:11, 1Jn_5:13, 1Jn_5:20, Jud_1:7, Jud_1:21
Including the example @Curtis used above.
But the other word is aionios, which is not a defined period of time, It really is eternal, forever, non-ending.
This is the word used in these verses.
Mat_19:16, Mat_25:46, Mar_3:29, Mar_10:17, Mar_10:30, Luk_10:25, Luk_18:18, Joh_3:15, Joh_4:36, Joh_5:39, Joh_6:54, Joh_6:68, Joh_10:28, Joh_12:25, Joh_17:2-3 (2), Act_13:48, Rom_2:7, Rom_5:21, Rom_6:23, 2Co_4:17-18 (2), 2Co_5:1, 1Ti_6:12, 1Ti_6:19, 2Ti_2:10, Tit_1:2, Tit_3:7, Heb_5:9, Heb_6:2, Heb_9:12, Heb_9:14-15 (2), 1Pe_5:10, 1Jn_1:2, 1Jn_2:25, 1Jn_3:15, 1Jn_5:11, 1Jn_5:13, 1Jn_5:20, Jud_1:7, Jud_1:21
Including the example @Curtis used above.
Rhema
Active
Bad translations create bad theology.
It's a fool's game to rely on English words. And you should know this by now.
KingJ
Loyal
Oh wow, I see you took a stab at it.
Allow me to clarify my ''mixed up irrational post'' for you.
You believe that those who reject Jesus LITERALLY DIE. Cease to exist. As such, your Christian message to the LOST is the following:
Accept Jesus OR DIE.
You then ask what that has to do with free will? What does the dead actually being dead have to do with free will? Are you being serious?
----------------------
Please properly read a post before replying and take a proper stab at the question asked of you.
You mention Calvinisim. No, I do not group annihilationists in the same group as them. 5 Point Calvinism is 10/10 evil. Annihilaitonists are 3/10 and the only 'good' thing about this belief is that it is an option that does not incriminate God as the most evil being to ever live as those who believe in eternal torture do.
Bummer. I left my shears out in the shed; I'll have to get them.....aah found them.
A little here a little there.
Much better.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
A little here a little there.
Much better.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
KingJ
Loyal
Curtis
Loyal
Yes, you can be spiritually dead and still be physically alive. (the unsaved world)
You can be physically dead and be spiritually alive. (Those who are with God now)
You can be physically dead and spiritually alive. (Those in hell awaiting the judgment)
Last edited:
B-A-C
Loyal
1Tim 5:6 But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Curtis
Loyal
I meant to say, "You can be physically dead and spiritually dead." (Those in hell awaiting the judgment)