Can our salvation in Christ Jesus ever be jeopardised?
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lentz
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Well.there’s a lot of talk about Paul’s salvation. I remember reading when he said he was afraid that after his life was all said and done, he might be a castaway.
Greetings Brother,
Yes. The Apostle Paul's writings, if taken in slices, can have one thinking (believing?) that he almost had to earn salvation and perhaps even then was unworthy and/or could/might fail to attain to what others (those he ministered the Gospel to) were assured of, if they heeded his teaching and the Gospel entrusted unto him.
In what context did he refer to being a castaway?
Bless you ....><>
Yes. The Apostle Paul's writings, if taken in slices, can have one thinking (believing?) that he almost had to earn salvation and perhaps even then was unworthy and/or could/might fail to attain to what others (those he ministered the Gospel to) were assured of, if they heeded his teaching and the Gospel entrusted unto him.
In what context did he refer to being a castaway?
Bless you ....><>
lentz
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1st Cor. 9:27
If he didn’t practice what he preached he too would die lost and undone.
If Paul knew he could go astray and leave his own teachings,how can one believe in eternal security of the believer.
Evidently Paul didn’t believe in it.
B-A-C
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Posts 2 thru 11 were in response to post #1. ( the OP ) Post #1 doesn't mention Paul, and it fact it includes several verses from Matthew, John and Revelation are quoted here as
well as some verses from Pauls' writings as well.
The question of Paul's assurance of salvation didn't appear until post #33.
B-A-C
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I assume @lentz means this passage.
1Cor 9:26; Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
1Cor 9:27; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
I wonder why Paul would be concerned that he could be "disqualified"?
Greetings,
It appears the answer is, no?
From what?
Bless you ....><>
Yes, I am aware of that.
It appears the answer is, no?
From what?
Bless you ....><>
B-A-C
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Sometimes I wonder if you are being facetious on purpose
1Cor 9:24; Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
1Cor 9:25; Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
1Cor 9:26; Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
1Cor 9:27; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
Disqualified from the race, the boxing match, ... disqualified from receiving the "imperishable wreath". The only race that matters in this life.
Php 2:14; Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
Php 2:15; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
Php 2:16; holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
1Thes 3:4; For indeed when we were with you, we kept telling you in advance that we were going to suffer affliction; and so it came to pass, as you know.
1Thes 3:5; For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.
Whether you know it or not, ( I suspect you do ) we are in a war. The only war that matters in this life.
Eph 6:11; Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
Eph 6:12; For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
2Tim 2:3; Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Tim 2:4; No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.
2Tim 2:5; Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.
Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
It is possible to fall short of the grace of God if you want to.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
1Pet 1:6; In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
1Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
The only tests that matter in this life.
We are in a race; in a boxing match. in a war, and we are tested, over and over again.
1Pet 5:8; Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Satan doesn't need to devour non-Christians, they are already his. He is seeking believers to devour.
But you have to compete in this life, you have to wage spiritual warfare. You have to pass the tests, eventually you have to overcome.
Rev 2:7; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'
Rev 2:11; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Rev 2:17; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'
Rev 2:26; 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 3:12; 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
Rev 3:21; 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 21:7; "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
2Cor 13:5; Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
So I turn the question back to you. What do you think he might be concerned about being disqualified from?
Tested by fire
I recently started another thread "The fleece test". So why start yet another thread about testing? That first thread was about us testing God. I think @Brad Huber was right in saying we shouldn't go around testing God. But this thread is flipped... it's about God testing us. While perhaps we...
Sometimes I wonder if you are being facetious on purpose
I shall have to look that word up. Not one I remember using, ever. Honestly.
I have heard it plenty of times but never really looked into it. Is it something that can be said/directed in love or is it purely derogatory?
Thank you either way. I always am better after sharpening.
The question is/was genuine, if not for my benefit, then for others, including yourself, for clarification and proper understanding, rather than relying upon what we might otherwise be disposed or predisposed to.
Bless you ....><>
Greetings,
Could that be, the Apostle knew that the calling and ministry he was called to was not a vain matter, as some go about doing their stuff, appearing outwardly to be genuinely serving but only in truth serving their own ambition to do things (for good or bad intention) for the Lord, but never actually sent by Him?
In the context of what he wrote there, can you see that he was letting the readers know that they should press on despite opposition and remember, if tempted to do otherwise, that, as examples of the Way/Faith (name of Christ ambassadors) they give no place to any to slander the name of the Son of God?
Bless you ....><>
Could that be, the Apostle knew that the calling and ministry he was called to was not a vain matter, as some go about doing their stuff, appearing outwardly to be genuinely serving but only in truth serving their own ambition to do things (for good or bad intention) for the Lord, but never actually sent by Him?
In the context of what he wrote there, can you see that he was letting the readers know that they should press on despite opposition and remember, if tempted to do otherwise, that, as examples of the Way/Faith (name of Christ ambassadors) they give no place to any to slander the name of the Son of God?
Bless you ....><>
Glad you brought this up
I had been 'looking' for opportunity to do so. Perhaps another thread, one day?
An officer stripped of rank still serves, does he not? But why would one want to be? A good soldier will give himself as a servant and do all to uphold the name of his master.
Don't know about you but I have been reminded of that and am always thankful when I am. Was the Apostle, in any way, 'reminding' 'the troops -officers included' of much the same exhortation?
Exhortation was an important part of the office of those who were to be authorities for the Church. See 1Timothy 4:13 for an example.
Bless you ....><>
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ,
and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Peter 5:1
Greetings once more Brother,
You gave a verse from Hebrews
Was Abraham tested "over and over again"?
Bless you ....><>
You gave a verse from Hebrews
Was Abraham tested "over and over again"?
Bless you ....><>
Greetings, me again,
What ?
Eventually you have to overcome?
Trying to make that fit but I can only do so by compromise.
1Peter 5:9
Would overcoming be included in the perfecting?
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
1Peter 5:10
Bless you ....><>
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that begat loveth Him also that is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1John 5:1-5
What ?
Eventually you have to overcome?
Trying to make that fit but I can only do so by compromise.
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Peter 5:9
Would overcoming be included in the perfecting?
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
1Peter 5:10
Bless you ....><>
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that begat loveth Him also that is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1John 5:1-5
Greetings,
The version you use speaks for your post but please read the verse in the passage of the letter.
'... but you are not reprobates'
If we read the whole letter, we see better how the verse you quoted, is given. It doesn't take that long. Most would read a letter as a whole. Throughout the letter, the message is the same and to remove doubt about the Apostle's thoughts we read:
I rejoice therefore that I have confidence in you in all things.
2Corinthians 7:16
Bless you ....,><>
The version you use speaks for your post but please read the verse in the passage of the letter.
'... but you are not reprobates'
If we read the whole letter, we see better how the verse you quoted, is given. It doesn't take that long. Most would read a letter as a whole. Throughout the letter, the message is the same and to remove doubt about the Apostle's thoughts we read:
I rejoice therefore that I have confidence in you in all things.
2Corinthians 7:16
Bless you ....,><>
B-A-C
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It was certainly more than once.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb 11:9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
But even if it would have been only once, he still passed that test.
1Pet 5:9; But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.
1Pet 5:10; After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
It's true the testing isn't 24/7. But you should be resisting Satan during the testing. Assuming you did pass the "resistance" test, Yes God will remove the trial from you.
But I believe that until you do pass the test, you will tested again.. and again.
2Cor 13:1; This is the third time I am coming to you. EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.
2Cor 13:2; I have previously said when present the second time, and though now absent I say in advance to those who have sinned in the past and to all the rest as well, that if I come again I will not spare anyone,
2Cor 13:3; since you are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in me, and who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you.
2Cor 13:4; For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.
2Cor 13:5; Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
2Cor 13:6; But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
2Cor 13:7; Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved.
2Cor 13:8; For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth.
2Cor 13:9; For we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong; this we also pray for, that you will be made complete.
2Cor 13:10; For this reason I am writing these things while absent, so that when present I need not use severity, in accordance with the authority which the Lord gave me for building up and not for tearing down.
Those who keep sinning.. "I will not spare anyone" if I come again ( to Corinth )
He tells them to "do no wrong" and then tells them to "do what is right"
So that when he is "present I need not use severity".
What about the context of this disagrees with - examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith ??
Greetings,
When I read it, without your choice of emphasis, as with reading the whole letter, none of it.
Thank you for sharing the tests.
Bless you ....><>
When I read it, without your choice of emphasis, as with reading the whole letter, none of it.
Thank you for sharing the tests.
Bless you ....><>
PS @B-A-C
Brother, I am happy to continue dialogue with you but I also do wish to remind us both that I did write that I didn't want to 'stomp on yours and Chris's @complete garden' - my paraphrase.
I feel somewhat rude towards Chris and yourself.
My initial 'butting in' was to suggest that you could kindly help Chris by sharing one or two verses, etc. (That show the Apostle Paul having assurance of his salvation)
I am happy, as said/written, to continue with you, so long as you can put up with me, so please don't misinterpret me.... I felt pressed to remind you and us that which I have already explained in this post.
Bless you and yours ....><>
PS @complete
forgive me please if I have upset you. I get a little carried away, sometimes.
I suppose it is a communal garden but I think you appreciate my sentiment ....><>
Brother, I am happy to continue dialogue with you but I also do wish to remind us both that I did write that I didn't want to 'stomp on yours and Chris's @complete garden' - my paraphrase.
I feel somewhat rude towards Chris and yourself.
My initial 'butting in' was to suggest that you could kindly help Chris by sharing one or two verses, etc. (That show the Apostle Paul having assurance of his salvation)
I am happy, as said/written, to continue with you, so long as you can put up with me, so please don't misinterpret me.... I felt pressed to remind you and us that which I have already explained in this post.
Bless you and yours ....><>
PS @complete
forgive me please if I have upset you. I get a little carried away, sometimes.
I suppose it is a communal garden but I think you appreciate my sentiment ....><>
B-A-C
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It's certainly not a problem for me. The more the merrier. I know sometimes threads are started to proclaim a point. Usually the people that start those threads would be happy to post a message or two, and then
have the thread closed immediately afterwards. I have wished for the same on occasion myself. Other times threads are started for the sake of discussion, people are invited to join in.
My personal opinion, is that this is an open chat forum. Unless someone really crosses a line, they are pretty much welcome to join in any conversation.
Most of the forum areas I have never posted in, there are really four that I frequent. It seems I have posted more messages in the Bible Discussion forum than all the others put together.
I try to ( not always successfully ) divide my opinions into two categories. The teachings that matter, and the teachings that don't. Of course those two lists would likely be different for everyone, so I can only
go by "my list". Things that don't matter that much, at least I don't believe your salvation depends on them... speaking in tongues, baptism, pre-trib vs post-trib rapture, immediate ascension vs souls sleep,
some of these make for interesting conversation, but your salvation doesn't depend of them.
Then on the other hand, the deity of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus, sanctification and obedience, these things matter, your salvation DOES depend on them. OSAS is a special case.
To this day, I don't understand the need to say "Warning* Warning* - you can't fall off the cliff no matter how hard you try". Why does anyone need to be warned about something that you believe can't happen.
If on the other hand, you can lose your salvation, well then people need to be aware, people need to be warned.
Which is a more dangerous doctrine, that you might fall off the cliff, even if you really can't. or that you can't fall off the cliff even if you really can?
I don't think you can blatantly start a Calvinistic tread and not expect a few Arminians to respond. I've tried to do the opposite a few times, but so far I have been unsuccessful in keeping those who oppose
my views to keep from arguing with me
( I am half-kidding here ) it's wishful thinking sometimes, but I don't really expect it.For the most part I try to stay out of the "how many angels can fit on the head on a pin", or "how hot is hell", or "how many hours was Jesus in the tomb". None of these have anything to do with the
price of eggs in China, so I don't see a lot of point in spending time on things that don't matter.
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Dear Br. Bear,
You have always been a delight. You could not offend me. I love your gentleness and kindly supervision. You are not rude. You seek to adorn the gospel of your Saviour, and therefore are a cause of thanksgiving and praise to Him who called you out of darkness into light. What a joy it is to be in His presence and share the love and grace that He imparts.
Praise His Holy Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hello @B-A-C,
You seek to impress upon your reader that these verses apply to those who have received salvation by faith. For they cannot, 'fall away', from that which they never had. Your verses are taken from the gospels, and from the epistles of Peter and Paul.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
