Christians and the Tribulation

[B-A-C]

There has been a lot of debate about when the rapture is here on TalkJesus over the years. This is kind of related, but not necessarily.
Even if you believe in a "pre-trib" rapture, the fact remains there will be Christians that come out of the great tribulation. So maybe they got saved during the tribulation?
Either way, the Bible says at least some Christians will go through at least part of the tribulation.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and races of people and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Rev 7:11; And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12; saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It says here that people from every nation and race of people will come out of the great tribulation.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Why are the "elect" still here, it seems at least some of the elect will go through the tribulation.
Mark say the same thing.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Some Christians will be beheaded during the tribulation by the beast, "because of their testimony of Jesus".
For most Christians I have spoken to over the years, the rapture seems to be an all or none type of thing. Either everyone gets raptured, or no one does, but there is a third option I have also heard.
For example the church of Smyrna...

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

This church will face tribulation for at least "10 days" ( whether that is figurative, or literal remains unknown ). But yet the church of Philadelphia is told...
Rev 3:10; 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

So which is it? All get tested, none get tested, or some get tested and some don't?
Daniel says...

Dan 12:10; "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
Dan 12:11; "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

During the time of the abomination of desolation, "Many will be ... purified and refined". Surely this is speaking of believing Christians. I don't believe non-believers can be purified.

Daniel also says...

Dan 7:21; "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them

The beast is fighting with the saints and "overpowering" them. Is this a physical death, a spiritual death. This also is unknown. John says the same thing in Revelation.

Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and race of people and tongue and nation was given to him.

Why are the saints still here when the beast takes over? Maybe these are those who get saved during the tribulation, but even so, they are there.

There is more... but this is a pretty good start. Who are the Christians who go through the tribulation?

 

[B-A-C]

I've heard many pre-tib believers say, the churches will be really crowded right after the rapture. This will be greatest time of revival in history. Perhaps this may be true, but I don't
really see this in the Bible, in fact, it mostly says just the opposite.

Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 9:20; The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Rev 9:21; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Rev 16:9; Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

It would seem that the vast majority of unbelievers, will remain unsaved during the tribulation. I'm not saying no one will be saved during this time, I just don't see it being a huge revival.

Dan 12:10; "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
Rev 22:11; "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

 

[Brad Huber]

If God wanted to keep us from any trials and tribulations, He would have done so already to those many persecuted and killed in the early church. Does anyone think they are better than the apostles who all but one were killed for their faith?

 

[Hekuran]

If God wanted to keep us from any trials and tribulations, He would have done so already to those many persecuted and killed in the early church. Does anyone think they are better than the apostles who all but one were killed for their faith?

Yes. And John, the writer of Revelation, thought of the tributation as a present event, not just a future one. In Revelation 1:9 he describes himself as a fellow partaker in the tribulation. I'm convinced he wrote to the churches of his day to prepare and strengthen them for the beheadings, martydom, persecution that they were enduring.

Great tribulations have happened at many times and many places since then.

 

[Dave M]

looking forward to reading this wanted to book mark it

 

[Charlie24]

If God wanted to keep us from any trials and tribulations, He would have done so already to those many persecuted and killed in the early church. Does anyone think they are better than the apostles who all but one were killed for their faith?

Those of us who are in Christ may very well face persecution to the death before the Great tribulation comes. It is already taking place in parts of the world. None of us are immune to that persecution.

But none of us who are in Christ will face the Great Tribulation, that is a time of God's wrath on sin, and we know there is no condemnation in those who are in Christ, in the sight of God.

His wrath is poured out on the unsaved. There will be many who will be saved during that time, but they will most likely be persecuted to the death for it by the anti-christ.

 

[Charlie24]

I've heard many pre-tib believers say, the churches will be really crowded right after the rapture. This will be greatest time of revival in history. Perhaps this may be true, but I don't
really see this in the Bible, in fact, it mostly says just the opposite.

Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 9:20; The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Rev 9:21; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Rev 16:9; Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

It would seem that the vast majority of unbelievers, will remain unsaved during the tribulation. I'm not saying no one will be saved during this time, I just don't see it being a huge revival.

Dan 12:10; "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
Rev 22:11; "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

If we use the example of the parable of the 10 virgins, half of them were left behind.

There are over 2 billion professing Christians in the world today. If half of them are left behind at the rapture, that's over 1 billion people.

Millions, probably tens of millions of these will fill the churches or at least take a serious look at why they were left behind.

From this crowd will come the majority of those saved during the Great Tribulation, along with "all of Israel."

 

[Dave M]

that is a time of God's wrath on sin,

---

When does God wrath start compared to the devils wrath?

 

[Charlie24]

---

When does God wrath start compared to the devils wrath?

Wrath should be defined here, but according to Scripture the wrath of Satan greatly intensifies when he is kicked out of heaven to earth.

Satan will be a participant of God's wrath at that time, along with those who are unsaved.

 

[Brad Huber]

Those of us who are in Christ may very well face persecution to the death before the Great tribulation comes. It is already taking place in parts of the world. None of us are immune to that persecution.

But none of us who are in Christ will face the Great Tribulation, that is a time of God's wrath on sin, and we know there is no condemnation in those who are in Christ, in the sight of God.

His wrath is poured out on the unsaved. There will be many who will be saved during that time, but they will most likely be persecuted to the death for it by the anti-christ.

You will face it, if you take up your cross. But if you lay it down, well... I dont like to speculate.

 

[Charlie24]

You will face it, if you take up your cross. But if you lay it down, well... I dont like to speculate.

What happens between now and the Tribulation of Revelation, I don't know. Could be death for my faith, don't know.

But I do know if I'm alive at that time I will not face the wrath of God on this world.

If you want to maybe God can arrange it for you, but not for me.

 

[Hekuran]

How strong is the biblical evidence for a unique event, "The Great Tribulation", that stands above and beyond the tribulations experienced by believers in every age since Jesus ascended to heaven?

 

[Charlie24]

How strong is the biblical evidence for a unique event, "The Great Tribulation", that stands above and beyond the tribulations experienced by believers in every age since Jesus ascended to heaven?

Christ tells the Church,

Rev. 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Paul tells the Thessalonian Church, we (the saved) are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes. 5:9
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

At the opening of the sixth seal the wrath of God is announced on this earth.

Rev. 6:17
"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Those who are in Christ are in this world but not of this world. His wrath is on the sins of man and Satan, not on the righteous in His sight. We who are in Christ have no sin, it has been washed away by the Blood of the Lamb.

 

[Charlie24]

Christ tells the Church,

Rev. 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Paul tells the Thessalonian Church, we (the saved) are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes. 5:9
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

At the opening of the sixth seal the wrath of God is announced on this earth.

Rev. 6:17
"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Those who are in Christ are in this world but not of this world. His wrath is on the sins of man and Satan, not on the righteous in His sight. We who are in Christ have no sin, it has been washed away by the Blood of the Lamb.

How does the Lord keep the saved from the wrath of God and of Christ?

1 Thes. 4:13-18
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It's important to know that the resurrection of the just and the rapture are one in the same. This is when all who are saved from the beginning of time (Adam and Eve) till that day of the rapture/resurrection are snatched out of the graves and receive their glorified bodies.

Those who are still alive are changed in an instant, being given their glorified bodies and all will meet the Lord in the air. Why meet Him in the air?

They are taken from this earth and the wrath of God that is about to take place. They are literally snatched off this earth, "caught up."

 

[Brad Huber]

What happens between now and the Tribulation of Revelation, I don't know. Could be death for my faith, don't know.

But I do know if I'm alive at that time I will not face the wrath of God on this world.

If you want to maybe God can arrange it for you, but not for me.

Its not God's wrath you will be facing, just like it was not God's wrath that Jesus faced on the cross. Satan's hatred of all things good put Him there, not realizing his mistake in doing so. Thats the wrath that will be greater than all time so far completed. As his days grow shorter, his wrath will grow, and many christians will fall to his wrath. Ones that were so sure they would be raptured out and not face any wrath. Oblivious to the danger, just like what God calls the bulk of us, His sheep.

 

[Hekuran]

Christ tells the Church,

Rev. 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Paul tells the Thessalonian Church, we (the saved) are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes. 5:9
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

At the opening of the sixth seal the wrath of God is announced on this earth.

Rev. 6:17
"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Those who are in Christ are in this world but not of this world. His wrath is on the sins of man and Satan, not on the righteous in His sight. We who are in Christ have no sin, it has been washed away by the Blood of the Lamb.

Not appointed to wrath, but tribulation is the normal experience of those who follow Jesus.

See for example 1 Peter 4:12-19

 

[B-A-C]

Paul tells the Thessalonian Church, we (the saved) are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes. 5:9
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Just because we will be here then, doesn't mean we have to face the plagues. For example...

Rev 9:3; Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5; And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

If you have the seal of God on you, you're protected from God's plagues. Although the beast will get some Christians.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The plain and simple fact is, some Christians will face the tribulation. They may not go through the "wrath" of it, but they will be there.
Otherwise how do you explain the people in Rev 7:14;

Noah and his family went "through" the flood. They didn't wrath the "wrath" of it, but they went through it.

 

[B-A-C]

When does God wrath start compared to the devils wrath?

This is a very good question. I think a lot of people don't know.

If we take the seven trumpets, the seven seals, the seven bowls, etc... usually right before every one of these happens, one of God's angels blows a trumpet,

Rev 8:2; And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
Rev 8:6; And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.
Rev 8:13; Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"
Rev 9:14; one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

It says here these are the angels that stand before God, these are God's angels. God's angels are the one's sounding trumpets that release the plagues. It isn't Satan or the beast.

Jesus Himself is the one who breaks the seals

Rev 6:1; Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."
Rev 6:2; I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
Rev 6:3; When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come."
Rev 6:4; And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
Rev 6:5; When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come." I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:6; And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine."
Rev 6:7; When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come."
Rev 6:8; I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9; When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11; And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Rev 6:12; I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;

Jesus breaking the seals is what causes the next round of plagues.

Rev 16:1; Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."

This isn't the wrath of Satan and the beast here. This is the wrath of God...

I believe Christians on the Earth during this time will be protected from God's wrath.

Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

But does that mean Christians don't have anything to worry about? Satan will still be fighting and killing.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 12:17; So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The beast will be fighting Christians. Saints. How can he fight them if they are all already raptured up?

Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

So it's possible we will be caught in the crossfire between the two sides, but God's side won't be aiming at us.

 

[Charlie24]

Its not God's wrath you will be facing, just like it was not God's wrath that Jesus faced on the cross. Satan's hatred of all things good put Him there, not realizing his mistake in doing so. Thats the wrath that will be greater than all time so far completed. As his days grow shorter, his wrath will grow, and many christians will fall to his wrath. Ones that were so sure they would be raptured out and not face any wrath. Oblivious to the danger, just like what God calls the bulk of us, His sheep.

Everyone I have ever met who were against the rapture as explained by the fundamentalist's, has stood their ground.

That's ok, I agree to disagree! At least you know now that the rapture teaching didn't come out of thin air.

There's much more to it putting all the pieces together but if you disagree with what I've so far given, then the rest is a waste of time for you and me.

 

[Charlie24]

Not appointed to wrath, but tribulation is the normal experience of those who follow Jesus.

See for example 1 Peter 4:12-19

Christ explained that the tribulation period was the worst time the world will ever see.

So bad that He will keep His faithful ones out of it, as He said in Rev. 3:10.

I do agree the worst that could happen is death for ones faith, and some of us may experience that before the Tribulation.

And I also agree that through much tribulation do we enter into the Kingdom of God.

But not the tribulation that this world will experience for those 7 years in the future.