Christians and the Tribulation

[KingJ]

There has been a lot of debate about when the rapture is here on TalkJesus over the years. This is kind of related, but not necessarily.
Even if you believe in a "pre-trib" rapture, the fact remains there will be Christians that come out of the great tribulation. So maybe they got saved during the tribulation?
Either way, the Bible says at least some Christians will go through at least part of the tribulation.

There is absolutely no scripture that says Christians saved by faith in Jesus will go through the tribulation.

The only way to become a Christian / clothed in white / receive a crown during the tribulation is A. Mentioned in Rev 2:10 and B. Rev 20:4, Rejecting the mark of the beast and somehow escaping Rev 2:10.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

It is this verse that also proves a pre-trib rapture. It makes no sense that one justified by faith now also needs to be justified by torment and martyrdom.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and races of people and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Rev 7:11; And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12; saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It says here that people from every nation and race of people will come out of the great tribulation.

Yes, tribulation saints, justified by Rev 2:10 and rejecting the mark of the beast.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matt 24 does not refer to the tribulation until verse 15. We will endure suffering up to the point the antichrist reveals himself in the temple. It seems that verse 15 ushers in the tribulation as we read in verse 16-28 the following: then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.

Why are the "elect" still here, it seems at least some of the elect will go through the tribulation.
Mark say the same thing.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

The elect are those who stand for Jesus in the tribulation. IE Rev 2:10 saints and others.

The days are shortened. It is cut at 3,5 years. The point at which the seventh seal is opened and the seven trumpets sound. For those who resist the mark of the beast but do not die, they rejoice when they see God reigning plagues on the wicked.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

This passage explains exactly what I am trying to communicate. The yellow you have highlighted explains the two types of elect from the tribulation.

Some Christians will be beheaded during the tribulation by the beast, "because of their testimony of Jesus".
For most Christians I have spoken to over the years, the rapture seems to be an all or none type of thing. Either everyone gets raptured, or no one does, but there is a third option I have also heard.
For example the church of Smyrna...

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

This church will face tribulation for at least "10 days" ( whether that is figurative, or literal remains unknown ). But yet the church of Philadelphia is told...
Rev 3:10; 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

So which is it? All get tested, none get tested, or some get tested and some don't?

It will be a mix. If we consider Jews in WW2, it was 38% of all Jews. Per Matt 24:21 it could be a worse ratio then that.

Daniel says...

Dan 12:10; "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
Dan 12:11; "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

During the time of the abomination of desolation, "Many will be ... purified and refined". Surely this is speaking of believing Christians. I don't believe non-believers can be purified.

Sure, those who do not receive the mark of the beast per the scripture you quoted in Rev 20:4. They are purified and refined. These are not pre-trib saints. They are tribulation saints.

Daniel also says...

Dan 7:21; "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them

The beast is fighting with the saints and "overpowering" them. Is this a physical death, a spiritual death. This also is unknown. John says the same thing in Revelation.

It could be both spiritual and physical. We know that armies will assemble against Israel. Many, many Jews will be tribulation saints.

Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and race of people and tongue and nation was given to him.

Why are the saints still here when the beast takes over? Maybe these are those who get saved during the tribulation, but even so, they are there.

There is more... but this is a pretty good start. Who are the Christians who go through the tribulation?

No Christians go through the tribulation. But people become Christians in it. Enduring as Matt 24:21 says ''For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now and never to be equaled again.''

 

[B-A-C]

So bad that He will keep His faithful ones out of it, as He said in Rev. 3:10.

Why do people who quote this verse always exclude...

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

 

[Charlie24]

Just because we will be here then, doesn't mean we have to face the plagues. For example...

Rev 9:3; Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5; And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

If you have the seal of God on you, you're protected from God's plagues. Although the beast will get some Christians.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The plain and simple fact is, some Christians will face the tribulation. They may not go through the "wrath" of it, but they will be there.
Otherwise how do you explain the people in Rev 7:14;

Noah and his family went "through" the flood. They didn't wrath the "wrath" of it, but they went through it.

That is another theory of speculation, I don't agree with it, but no one can prove that theory incorrect.

 

[KingJ]

I've heard many pre-tib believers say, the churches will be really crowded right after the rapture. This will be greatest time of revival in history. Perhaps this may be true, but I don't
really see this in the Bible, in fact, it mostly says just the opposite.

Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 9:20; The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Rev 9:21; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Rev 16:9; Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

It would seem that the vast majority of unbelievers, will remain unsaved during the tribulation. I'm not saying no one will be saved during this time, I just don't see it being a huge revival.

Dan 12:10; "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
Rev 22:11; "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

I agree. I don't expect many tribulation saints either. But, 'not many' percentage wise could still be 100 million? I would think that is a large number of people.

 

[B-A-C]

These are not pre-trib saints. They are tribulation saints.

Divide them into two groups if you like, the fact is, they were there, they went through it. Maybe it's only some of them, fine... I can go with that. But the fact remains.. it IS some of them.

 

[Charlie24]

Why do people who quote this verse always exclude...

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Rev. 2:10 is addressed to the Church of Smyrna, it represents the Martyr Church, from appr. AD 100-AD 300.

This takes place before the Great Tribulation and is referring to the persecution of Rome against the Church.

Each of the 7 Churches represents a period of time in Church History from beginning to end of the Church Age.

 

[Hekuran]

There is absolutely no scripture that says Christians saved by faith in Jesus will go through the tribulation.

Bold claim. John considered himself and his audience as partakers in the tribulation

Revelation 1:9

 

[Charlie24]

Bold claim. John considered himself and his audience as partakers in the tribulation

Revelation 1:9

John is referring to being exiled to Patmos for his faith. This has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation that comes upon the whole world in the future.

There is a vast difference in the tribulations of this life for Christ and the Great Tribulation yet to come.

 

[Hekuran]

Each of the 7 Churches represents a period of time in Church History from beginning to end of the Church Age.

There's not a scrap of evidence for this in the text.

 

[Hekuran]

John is referring to being exiled to Patmos for his faith. This has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation that comes upon the whole world in the future.

There is a vast difference in the tribulations of this life for Christ and the Great Tribulation yet to come.

Well I asked for the biblical case for this capital letter Great Tribulation. From my reading, it is flimsy. Tribulation, has been the normal experience of most Christians through the ages.

 

[Charlie24]

There's not a scrap of evidence for this in the text.

Wow, you mean the Scripture is not clear on everything for us to agree?

Doctrines are built on conclusions to written Scripture. It's not always crystal clear but requires research, lots of it.

 

[Charlie24]

Well I asked for the biblical case for this capital letter Great Tribulation. From my reading, it is flimsy. Tribulation, has been the normal experience of most Christians through the ages.

You do know the Great Tribulation is a 7 year period that takes place in Revelation?

It comes from the words of Christ in Matt. 24:21,

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

I capitalize it to set it apart from the tribulations of this life.

 

[B-A-C]

You do know the Great Tribulation is a 7 year period that takes place in Revelation?

We do have a few preterists on here, who believe that all or most of the events in Revelation happened in 70ad.
I am not one of them, but I know who most of them are.
We have a few others who believe the events for the seven churches in Asia have already happened as well.
But you can't really prove that's a different timeline.

 

[Hekuran]

You do know the Great Tribulation is a 7 year period that takes place in Revelation?

It comes from the words of Christ in Matt. 24:21,

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

I capitalize it to set it apart from the tribulations of this life.

The tribulation in Matthew 24 describes the destruction of the temple and judgement on Jerusalem - within a generation of Jesus' prophecy. Revelation was probably written a couple of decades after 70ad.

 

[KingJ]

We do have a few preterists on here, who believe that all or most of the events in Revelation happened in 70ad.
I am not one of them, but I know who most of them are.
We have a few others who believe the events for the seven churches in Asia have already happened as well.
But you can't really prove that's a different timeline.

I take a futurist view and agree with this post What is the abomination of desolation? | GotQuestions.org.

The abomination of desolation mentioned in Matt 24:15 is the antichrist.

 

[KingJ]

Bold claim. John considered himself and his audience as partakers in the tribulation

Revelation 1:9

To me that is a very ambiguous and generic statement. All Christians suffer and take part in a tribulation. This is Christianity 101.

John did certainly not experience what Matt 24:21 states.

 

[KingJ]

Divide them into two groups if you like, the fact is, they were there, they went through it. Maybe it's only some of them, fine... I can go with that. But the fact remains.. it IS some of them.

Yes sure. But these are likely either A. bad Christians (anti-OSAS) or b. fake Christians (OSAS) that were not ready for the rapture and escaped Rev 2:10.

 

[Hekuran]

To me that is a very ambiguous and generic statement. All Christians suffer and take part in a tribulation. This is Christianity 101.

John did certainly not experience what Matt 24:21 states.

Matthew 24 is Jesus' response to the Disciples question about the destruction of the temple

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The temple was destroyed in 70ad in the middle of the seven year Jewish-Roman war from 66 to 73ad. Jesus prophecy was fulfilled within a generation, just as he said.

 

[Charlie24]

We do have a few preterists on here, who believe that all or most of the events in Revelation happened in 70ad.
I am not one of them, but I know who most of them are.
We have a few others who believe the events for the seven churches in Asia have already happened as well.
But you can't really prove that's a different timeline.

I'm certainly not a preterist, but I am one of the many who believes the 7 Churches are timelines throughout the Church Age.

The Laodicea Church being the 7th and the apostate church in this present time.

No, it can't be proven a dead fact, but when all is put together I can see it no other way.

 

[Charlie24]

The tribulation in Matthew 24 describes the destruction of the temple and judgement on Jerusalem - within a generation of Jesus' prophecy. Revelation was probably written a couple of decades after 70ad.

We are yet to see the worst time this world has ever seen. The anti-christ will make sure of that when he comes.

The destruction of the temple in 70 AD did not effect the entire world as Christ said it would in Matt. 24:21.

If you're a Preterist then we are not going to see eye to eye on anything.