Christians and the Tribulation

[Hekuran]

We are yet to see the worst time this world has ever seen. The anti-christ will make sure of that when he comes.

The destruction of the temple in 70 AD did not effect the entire world as Christ said it would in Matt. 24:21.

If you're a Preterist then we are not going to see eye to eye on anything.

I'm not entirely sure what a preterist is. Jesus in Matthew 24 is speaking in the literary tradition of the Old Testament prophets, which is a style than often employs dramatic exaggeration to force a message home.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm not entirely sure what a preterist is. Jesus in Matthew 24 is speaking in the literary tradition of the Old Testament prophets, which is a style than often employs dramatic exaggeration to force a message home.

If you read Matt. 24:3 you will see that Christ is addressing their questions about the Second Coming and the end of the world.

 

[Hekuran]

If you read Matt. 24:3 you will see that Christ is addressing their questions about the Second Coming and the end of the world.

Completion of the age, not the end of the world. The greek word is aenos (age), not kosmos (world).

And the disciples could hardly be asking about Jesus' second coming before they had understood his death, resurrection and ascension to heaven.

 

[Charlie24]

Completion of the age, not the end of the world. The greek word is aenos (age), not kosmos (world).

And the disciples could hardly be asking about Jesus second coming before they had understood his death, resurrection and ascension to heaven.

I wasn't getting specific, just showing you what Matt. 24 is about.

Christ is addressing what will befall the Jews in Matt. 24.

The Jews are affected directly in Rev. 6-19 and the rest of the world indirectly.

If you don't understand this, then you're on the wrong trail.

The entire purpose of the Great Tribulation is to bring Israel to Christ.

Everything else that happens is working toward their salvation.

 

[Hekuran]

I wasn't getting specific, just showing you what Matt. 24 is about.

Christ is addressing what will befall the Jews in Matt. 24.

The Jews are affected directly in Rev. 6-19 and the rest of the world indirectly.

If you don't understand this, then you're on the wrong trail.

The entire purpose of the Great Tribulation is to bring Israel to Christ.

Everything else that happens is working toward their salvation.

I have quickly reread Revelation chapters six to nineteen. I don't see much in the text to suggest that it's specifically about the Jews. Where does this idea come from?

 

[Charlie24]

I have quickly reread Revelation chapters six to nineteen. I don't see much in the text to suggest that it's specifically about the Jews. Where does this idea come from?

Rom. 11:25-27
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

All of Israel is going to be saved in the future. They have been set on the back burner so to speak for around 2500 years. Their rebellion against God is the reason, and rejecting Christ didn't help them any.

The Gentile nations have reigned supreme all this time, but the times of the Gentiles will come to an end in the future, and Israel will take their place in this world that God intended for them to have.

The times of the Gentiles and the Church age go hand and hand, when one ends the other will end. When it comes to an end, God turns His focus on the salvation of Israel. The Church (almost all Gentiles) is taken out of here to be with the Lord, The Great Tribulation will bring Israel to their knees and they will see Christ at His Second Coming.

Zechariah said that 2/3's of Israel will be killed by the Gentile armies of the anti-christ and 1/3 will be saved. This is when all of Israel will be saved as Paul said. It's the battle of Armageddon recorded in Ezekiel 37-38.

Just as Israel has no hope left and are about to be finished off by the anti-christ, "every eye shall see Him" when He returns to save Israel from a sure inhalation, and destroys the anti-christ and his armies, and Israel will see it first hand.

 

[B-A-C]

The entire purpose of the Great Tribulation is to bring Israel to Christ.

Everything else that happens is working toward their salvation.

Why would God wait until then to save Israel? There will be a lot of Gentile Christians coming out of the tribulation.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and every race of people and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It says here that the people in white robes who come out of the tribulation come from every race, tribe, nation and language. Not just Jews.

Do you have one single scripture that specifically says the tribulation will ONLY be for the Jews?

 

[B-A-C]

Rom. 11:25-27

But none of those verses say it will happen during the tribulation. You added that part in yourself.

 

[Charlie24]

Why would God wait until then to save Israel? There will be a lot of Gentile Christians coming out of the tribulation.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and every race of people and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It says here that the people in white robes who come out of the tribulation come from every race, tribe, nation and language. Not just Jews.

Do you have one single scripture that specifically says the tribulation will ONLY be for the Jews?

Of course there will be Gentiles saved during the Great Tribulation, I never said anything contrary to that.

There will be multiplied millions of Gentiles saved at that time.

Read post #47 for a better understanding.

 

[Charlie24]

But none of those verses say it will happen during the tribulation. You added that part in yourself.

It happens at the Second Coming, the very end of the Great Tribulation. This is when Christ destroys the anti-christ, the false prophet and the their armies.

Rev. 19:19-20

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Zechariah actually records the very moment Israel see's "the one whom they have pierced." Israel will see Christ who was killed by their fore-fathers.

Zech. 12:9-11

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon."

Israel now knows that Christ is their Messiah and has been all along, the reason for the great mourning in the land.

 

[B-A-C]

the very moment Israel see's "the one whom they have pierced." Israel

Who pierced Jesus? The Jews or the Gentiles? ( Roman soldiers )

John 19:34; But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

Rev 1:7;
(AMPC) Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth shall gaze upon Him and beat their breasts and mourn and lament over Him. Even so [must it be]. Amen (so be it). [Dan_7:13; Zec_12:10]
(AMPC+) Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth shall gaze upon Him and beat their breasts and mourn and lament over Him. Even so [must it be]. Amen (so be it). [Dan_7:13; Zec_12:10]
(ASV) Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.
(BSB) Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.
(CSB) Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. So it is to be. Amen.
(ESV) Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen..
(Greek NT BYZ+) ιδουG3708 V-2AAM-2S ερχεταιG2064 V-PNI-3S μεταG3326 PREP τωνG3588 T-GPF νεφελωνG3507 N-GPF καιG2532 CONJ οψεταιG3708 V-FDI-3S αυτονG846 P-ASM παςG3956 A-NSM οφθαλμοςG3788 N-NSM καιG2532 CONJ οιτινεςG3748 R-NPM αυτονG846 P-ASM εξεκεντησανG1574 V-AAI-3P καιG2532 CONJ κοψονταιG2875 V-FDI-3P επG1909 PREP αυτονG846 P-ASM πασαιG3956 A-NPF αιG3588 T-NPF φυλαιG5443 N-NPF τηςG3588 T-GSF γηςG1093 N-GSF ναιG3483 PRT αμηνG281 HEB
(HCSB) Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, including those who pierced Him. And all the families of the earth will mourn over Him. This is certain. Amen.
(ISV) Look! He is coming in the clouds. Every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of him. So be it! Amen.
(KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
(MKJV) Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(NAS77) BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen.
(NAS95) BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
(NIrV) Look! He is coming with the clouds! Every eye will see him. Even those who pierced him will see him. All the nations of the earth will be sad because of him. This will really happen! Amen.
(NIV) "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.
(NKJV) Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(NLT) Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven. And everyone will see him—even those who pierced him. And all the nations of the world will mourn for him. Yes! Amen!
(RV) Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they which pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

The word some Bibles translates as "tribes" is...

φυλή
phulē
foo-lay'
From G5453 (compare G5444); an offshoot, that is, race or clan: - kindred, tribe.
Total KJV occurrences: 31

This could easily be translated as all the races on Earth will mourn.

 

[Charlie24]

Who pierced Jesus? The Jews or the Gentiles? ( Roman soldiers )

John 19:34; But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

You know as well as I that the Jews (the Sanhedrin/ the religious leaders) had Christ put to death.

Pilate carried out "reluctantly" what the Sanhedrin demanded.

They threatened Pilate by saying, "you are no friend of Caesar's."

 

[Charlie24]

It matters little to me who believes this or not, it's what I believe from Scripture.

None of this has anything to do with the salvation of any of us.

It has nothing to do with our relationship with Christ in this life to finish the race set before us, as Paul put it.

 

[Hekuran]

Rom. 11:25-27
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

All of Israel is going to be saved in the future. They have been set on the back burner so to speak for around 2500 years. Their rebellion against God is the reason, and rejecting Christ didn't help them any.

The Gentile nations have reigned supreme all this time, but the times of the Gentiles will come to an end in the future, and Israel will take their place in this world that God intended for them to have.

The times of the Gentiles and the Church age go hand and hand, when one ends the other will end. When it comes to an end, God turns His focus on the salvation of Israel. The Church (almost all Gentiles) is taken out of here to be with the Lord, The Great Tribulation will bring Israel to their knees and they will see Christ at His Second Coming.

Zechariah said that 2/3's of Israel will be killed by the Gentile armies of the anti-christ and 1/3 will be saved. This is when all of Israel will be saved as Paul said. It's the battle of Armageddon recorded in Ezekiel 37-38.

Just as Israel has no hope left and are about to be finished off by the anti-christ, "every eye shall see Him" when He returns to save Israel from a sure inhalation, and destroys the anti-christ and his armies, and Israel will see it first hand.

But nothing much in the text of Revelation?

 

[Charlie24]

But nothing much in the text of Revelation?

It's in there in types and symbols. The entire theme is Israel and false religion from Satan.

For example, "the woman clothed with the sun" in chapter 12:1 is Israel.

The man child of 12:5 is the 144, 000 Jews, the firstfruits of Israel to be saved at this time.

The great harlot of chapter 17 is false religion. The great red dragon of chapter 12 is Satan with his plot to murder.

So on and so on.

 

[Dave M]

I'm certainly not a preterist, but I am one of the many who believes the 7 Churches are timelines throughout the Church Age.

The Laodicea Church being the 7th and the apostate church in this present time.

No, it can't be proven a dead fact, but when all is put together I can see it no other way.

you know that works in America, but what about in other countries wear the church is on fire, like China from what I hear about the inder ground church. My theory is that the 7 churches represent the 7 profiles of all the church members


but just my thought on the subject, timeline to does not make sense to broad, but I see the majority of America for sure with a profile like Laodicea, but I doubt and speculate that China underground church is like that.

 

[Charlie24]

you know that works in America, but what about in other countries wear the church is on fire, like China from what I hear about the inder ground church. My theory is that the 7 churches represent the 7 profiles of all the church members


but just my thought on the subject, timeline to does not make sense to broad, but I see the majority of America for sure with a profile like Laodicea, but I doubt and speculate that China underground church is like that.

There are 3 divisions in the book of Revelation.

"The things which you have seen."

"'The things which are."

"The things which shall be hereafter."

It comes from Rev. 1:19 as Christ tells John what to write and why he's writing it.

Rev. 1:9
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

These are the categories that the book of Revelation fall under. It's the same with the letters to the Churches.

Immediately after John writes this, he begins his letters to the Churches. The past, the present, and the future.

 

[B-A-C]

"The things which you have seen."

Rev 1:1; The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Nothing in this book had happened yet, when John wrote it.

Rev 1:10; I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11; saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12; Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
Rev 1:13; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.
Rev 1:14; His head and His hair

John was having a vision, He was in the Spirit. That's what he was told to write down.

 

[Charlie24]

There are 3 divisions in the book of Revelation.

"The things which you have seen."

"'The things which are."

"The things which shall be hereafter."

It comes from Rev. 1:19 as Christ tells John what to write and why he's writing it.

Rev. 1:9
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

These are the categories that the book of Revelation fall under. It's the same with the letters to the Churches.

Immediately after John writes this, he begins his letters to the Churches. The past, the present, and the future.

I don't know if anyone has ever shown you this from Scripture, probably so, here it is again in that case.

The past, present, and future of what John is writing, dictated by Christ, is what John has seen, it's according to the time of his writing.

The first Church he writes to is Ephesus, this it the 1st century Church that John was a part of, it would be the past for what John has seen, being his an old man now writing the book of Revelation.

The second Church is Smyrna, this is called the martyr church, appr. AD 100- AD300.

The third is Pergamos, this is called the State Church, it laid the groundwork for the RCC, appr. AD 300-AD 500.

The fourth is Thyatira, this is the Papal Church, the beginning of the RCC, Catholicism, appr. AD 500-to the present day.

The fifth is Sardis, this is the Reformation Church, appr. AD 1500-to the present day. This is where the denominations pretty much began.

The sixth is Philadelphia, this is the missionary Church that spread throughout the world in the 1800's and continues to this day.

The seventh and final Church is Laodicea, this is the apostate Church, we don't know the exact time it began but we know from John's writing the church has completely apostatized. They are neither hot nor cold, but dead. This is the present Church we see, but the true Church is a remnant and gets no attention.

 

[Charlie24]

Rev 1:1; The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Nothing in this book had happened yet, when John wrote it.

Rev 1:10; I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11; saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12; Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
Rev 1:13; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.
Rev 1:14; His head and His hair

John was having a vision, He was in the Spirit. That's what he was told to write down.

Read my last post, the past for John, as I pointed out, was his part in the 1st century Church.