Christians and the Tribulation

[hopefulson]

I'm sceptical about double meaning of prophecy approaches to the old testament. It seems to me to be license to weave together different passages of the Bible to create any interpretation that suits the interpreter.

So: how do you know when there is a dual meaning in an old testament prophecy? What are the boundaries in interpretation that prevent the unwary from falling into error or false teaching?

Honest question.

I'm going to toss this out there not as an answer so much, but as an example of the true fact that God/Jesus Christ respects true differences of perspective and we can extrapolate or not that God does the same in OT circumstances. The example is in Luke 17: 20 - to 18 . The Pharisees question Jesus as to when He is going to restore the kingdom. Jesus tells the Pharisees of what they are in the deepest moral truth that they need to hear and that is that the kingdom of God is within them very close to them and not tied to events. Once He has spoken to the Pharisees and addressed their personal condition He then turns to His Own disciples and answers the original question in detail. Here there is an implication, a very strong inference of a future time referencing those who would find themselves in Israel. A time when they will in concern of their very survival, would be focused on His, The Messiah's arrival.

The implication is that God/Jesus Christ respects our limitation of perspective and deals with it graciously. We should also be on the lookout for the metaphorical patterns so close to the prophetic that it's hard not to draw an implication. Such as the Genesis reference to the parallel inference to the 7 year famine of Pharaoh's dream and the revelation of Joseph and the 7 years of tribulation and the revelation of Jesus Christ. Is this a relevant perception? I don't believe it needs to be but if you are a Jew in Israel in these end times as portrayed in Luke the reference takes on a deep meaning to a pleading heart like the ones Jesus describes in Luke 17. So what I'm trying to convey is The Lord respects the limitations that our perspective imposes on us. We ere and burden ourselves when we insist on reaching a conclusion and taking a stand before the ground to stand on has even arrived under our feet, but that does not mean that we should not open our eyes and look ahead as to where we are going.

 

[hopefulson]

I'm going to toss this out there not as an answer so much, but as an example of the true fact that God/Jesus Christ respects true differences of perspective and we can extrapolate or not that God does the same in OT circumstances. The example is in Luke 17: 20 - to 18 . The Pharisees question Jesus as to when He is going to restore the kingdom. Jesus tells the Pharisees of what they are in the deepest moral truth that they need to hear and that is that the kingdom of God is within them very close to them and not tied to events. Once He has spoken to the Pharisees and addressed their personal condition He then turns to His Own disciples and answers the original question in detail. Here there is an implication, a very strong inference of a future time referencing those who would find themselves in Israel. A time when they will in concern of their very survival, would be focused on His, The Messiah's arrival.

The implication is that God/Jesus Christ respects our limitation of perspective and deals with it graciously. We should also be on the lookout for the metaphorical patterns so close to the prophetic that it's hard not to draw an implication. Such as the Genesis reference to the parallel inference to the 7 year famine of Pharaoh's dream and the revelation of Joseph and the 7 years of tribulation and the revelation of Jesus Christ. Is this a relevant perception? I don't believe it needs to be but if you are a Jew in Israel in these end times as portrayed in Luke the reference takes on a deep meaning to a pleading heart like the ones Jesus describes in Luke 17. So what I'm trying to convey is The Lord respects the limitations that our perspective imposes on us. We ere and burden ourselves when we insist on reaching a conclusion and taking a stand before the ground to stand on has even arrived under our feet, but that does not mean that we should not open our eyes and look ahead as to where we are going.

Oh BTW if you want to explore OT and the ancient writings concerning prophecy the best author I have found with the most objective viewpoint is Ken Johnson. He is well worth googling if your interests lie in that direction.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm sceptical about double meaning of prophecy approaches to the old testament. It seems to me to be license to weave together different passages of the Bible to create any interpretation that suits the interpreter.

So: how do you know when there is a dual meaning in an old testament prophecy? What are the boundaries in interpretation that prevent the unwary from falling into error or false teaching?

Honest question.

Yes, an honest question that deserves an honest answer!

This discussion began with Daniel, how he combined the past and the future (our past and future) with what happens to Israel. There were wars with Egypt and Syria in the past and these same countries will have war in the future that leads up to the salvation of Israel. Daniel makes that clear in his 12th chapter.

Then we began to talk about Syria and Egypt at war, and I pointed out "the Assyrian" as the anti-christ in Isaiah 10. Let me give you another example of that in Isaiah 14.

Isaiah 14 begins with this,

Isa. 14:1-3
"For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,"

It should be overly obvious that Isaiah is here speaking of the future state of Israel. Israel is now ruling over their former oppressor's. They are at rest from all their troubles.

Then Isaiah begins in vs 4 to speak of the King of Babylon, who is actually a reference to Satan himself. As he is describing the King of Babylon (Satan) Isaiah says this to confirm who the King of Babylon really is.

Isa. 14:12-13
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Are you noticing how Isaiah is going from the future state of Israel to the past of Satan's rebellion against God? There is a reason for it. Now Isaiah will go back to the future with Satan, Israel, Babylon, and the Assyrian/the anti-christ to the end of Satan's last hope in the anti-christ. It all connects together and is all about the events that bring Israel to Christ. This is near and dear in the heart of God.

The city of Babylon will be rebuilt, Saddam Hussein had started the reconstruction of the foundations of Babylon when he met his end. There are many references to Babylon in Revelation. It will be the headquarters of the anti-christ during his attempt to take over this world, by the power of Satan.

Isaiah. 14:22
"For I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the Lord."

This is in reference to the rebellion of Nimrod, when he built the Tower of Babel. Babylon is always associated with rebellion against God. It will be the center of rebellion against God in the future with the rise of the anti-christ as represented in Revelation.

Then Isaiah directly presents the Assyrian/anti-christ.

Isaiah 14:25
"The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders."

Notice "upon my mountains tread him down under foot." This is referring to the Battle of Armageddon that takes place on Mt. Megiddo in Israel when the anti-christ comes to destroy Israel but is cut down by the Second Coming of Christ to save Israel and 'all of Israel shall be saved" when they see Christ do this before their very eyes.

This goes back to vs. 1-3, the future state of Israel at rest with no more fear, having authority over the oppressors that once oppressed them.

 

[Hekuran]

The city of Babylon will be rebuilt, Saddam Hussein had started the reconstruction of the foundations of Babylon when he met his end. There are many references to Babylon in Revelation. It will be the headquarters of the anti-christ during his attempt to take over this world, by the power of Satan.

This is where I start to get queasy - when old testament prophecies are co-opted to make very specific predictions about current and future events.

"Babylon" is mentioned many times in Revelation. I think it's meaning there is two-fold, neither of the meanings is literal.

First, in Revelation, Babylon signifies everything that stands against God and his ways. Babylon is about violence, coercion, a lust for power, exploitation of the weak, crushing enemies, greed opression and destruction. It's a contrast to the ways of the saints, and the heavenly city Jerusalem, which stands for peace, patience, endurance, faithfulness. In the visions of Revelation, Babylon looks invincible, but - surprise! - the heavenly city overcomes it.

Second, as in 1 Peter 5:13, Babylon - the ***** that sits on seven hills - in Revelation is a common code for Rome.

It doesn't matter a twitch if the archeological site at Babylon is rebuilt into a city, nor that Rome is no longer an oppressive superpower. Still, there have been, and are, many Babylons seizing destructive power against God. The book of Revelation called the seven churches then, and us now, to endure persecution, hardship and suffering, knowing that by remaining faithful we take part in Christ's victory over evil.

 

[Charlie24]

This is where I start to get queasy - when old testament prophecies are co-opted to make very specific predictions about current and future events.

"Babylon" is mentioned many times in Revelation. I think it's meaning there is two-fold, neither of the meanings is literal.

First, in Revelation, Babylon signifies everything that stands against God and his ways. Babylon is about violence, coercion, a lust for power, exploitation of the weak, crushing enemies, greed opression and destruction. It's a contrast to the ways of the saints, and the heavenly city Jerusalem, which stands for peace, patience, endurance, faithfulness. In the visions of Revelation, Babylon looks invincible, but - surprise! - the heavenly city overcomes it.

Second, as in 1 Peter 5:13, Babylon - the ***** that sits on seven hills - in Revelation is a common code for Rome.

It doesn't matter a twitch if the archeological site at Babylon is rebuilt into a city, nor that Rome is no longer an oppressive superpower. Still, there have been, and are, many Babylons seizing destructive power against God. The book of Revelation called the seven churches then, and us now, to endure persecution, hardship and suffering, knowing that by remaining faithful we take part in Christ's victory over evil.

Babylon the ***** is false religion that is in direct opposition with God's salvation. The newly rebuilt city of Babylon will be the representative of that rebellion in that day.

Someone has said, the first organized rebellion on this earth against God began with the Tower of Babel, where the old city of Babylon was built, and the last organized rebellion on this earth against God will be from Babylon by the anti-christ.

 

[Brad Huber]

I'm sceptical about double meaning of prophecy approaches to the old testament. It seems to me to be license to weave together different passages of the Bible to create any interpretation that suits the interpreter.

So: how do you know when there is a dual meaning in an old testament prophecy? What are the boundaries in interpretation that prevent the unwary from falling into error or false teaching?

Honest question.

God is the God of yesterday, today, and tommorrow. You cant see things the way He does. The past, present and future is all one to Him. Of course there can be multiple points of reference to a scriptural occurrence. Man learns so little from history and repeats it very often, practically circular in our behaviors. Look at the history of Israel falling away, returning, falling away, returning, etc. We are much the same. Like the doctrine of the trinity, you dont have to understand it to know its true.

 

[Hekuran]

Babylon the ***** is false religion that is in direct opposition with God's salvation. The newly rebuilt city of Babylon will be the representative of that rebellion in that day.

Someone has said, the first organized rebellion on this earth against God began with the Tower of Babel, where the old city of Babylon was built, and the last organized rebellion on this earth against God will be from Babylon by the anti-christ.

Nothing in the new testament about Babylon being rebuilt.

 

[Hekuran]

God is the God of yesterday, today, and tommorrow. You cant see things the way He does. The past, present and future is all one to Him. Of course there can be multiple points of reference to a scriptural occurrence. Man learns so little from history and repeats it very often, practically circular in our behaviors. Look at the history of Israel falling away, returning, falling away, returning, etc. We are much the same. Like the doctrine of the trinity, you dont have to understand it to know its true.

Yes, human nature hasn't changed, and nor has God. I have no problem with anyone reading the Bible and a newspaper together and prayerfully taking note of the echoes and common themes.

But reading the whole of the old and new testaments as if they are an elaborate set of clues to unlock the specific political movements of our own day, I think ends up with just a shallow and misleading reading of the Bible.

 

[Charlie24]

Nothing in the new testament about Babylon being rebuilt.

For those who reject the literal interpretation of Scripture until it becomes obvious it isn't literal, there is no rebuilt Babylon.

For those who do believe in a literal interpretation, we can plainly see the fall of the new city of Babylon in Revelation 18.

 

[Eddie Deepfield]

Can I propose that you select from there a passage you actually agree with and want to discuss.

i read the article = very interesting and repudiates everything i have been taught by Pentecostal Assemblies of God - seems i should have remained in the Roman Catholic Church of my early childhood.

Professor N. T. Wright would outrank most Pastors and Reverends in Christendom for scholarship and research into the NT.​

He is directly rebutting the "Left Behind" series of books which are more or less the Christian fundamentalists position.

Read it with meaning .


" The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre.

Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture” in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.”

This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.


This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes:


“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).


What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?


It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth.

The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.


The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels.

But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven” is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.


The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22).

When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).


Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and

Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless.

This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.


First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.


Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.


Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.


Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.


Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it?

And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world?

We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon?

Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation?""

 

[Charlie24]

i read the article = very interesting and repudiates everything i have been taught by Pentecostal Assemblies of God - seems i should have remained in the Roman Catholic Church of my early childhood.

Professor N. T. Wright would outrank most Pastors and Reverends in Christendom for scholarship and research into the NT.​

He is directly rebutting the "Left Behind" series of books which are more or less the Christian fundamentalists position.

Read it with meaning .


" The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre.

Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture” in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.”

This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.


This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes:


“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).


What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?


It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth.

The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.


The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels.

But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven” is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.


The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22).

When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).


Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and

Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless.

This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.


First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.


Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.


Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.


Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.


Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it?

And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world?

We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon?

Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation?""

There have been many terrible things to happen on this earth, things we don't want to talk about or even think about.

The Scripture tells us that the worst is yet to come, the worst time this world has ever seen or ever will see.

It all takes place in a 7 year period, and no one can escape it.

Cars crashing on the freeways and kids coming home with no parents will be the least of problems on this earth compared to what is on the way.

 

[Hekuran]

i read the article = very interesting and repudiates everything i have been taught by Pentecostal Assemblies of God - seems i should have remained in the Roman Catholic Church of my early childhood.

Professor N. T. Wright would outrank most Pastors and Reverends in Christendom for scholarship and research into the NT.​

He is directly rebutting the "Left Behind" series of books which are more or less the Christian fundamentalists position.

Read it with meaning .


" The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre.

Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture” in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.”

This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.


This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes:


“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).


What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?


It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth.

The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.


The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels.

But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven” is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.


The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22).

When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).


Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and

Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless.

This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.


First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.


Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.


Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.


Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.


Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it?

And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world?

We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon?

Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation?""

Rapture theology, as far as I can see, comes from a misinterpretation of two important Bible passages. The first is in Matthew 24

“...As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Jesus is here talking about judgement on Jerusalem and the Temple, which he says will be as swift and devastating as the flood waters in Noah's time. It's not about some people suddenly being transported to heaven, leaving airplanes without pilots etc.

The second is 1 Thessalonians 4, which Tom Wright has written about with more clarity, authority and insight than I have.

And then the misinterpretation of these passages leaks into many people's understanding of many other parts of scripture, just as one red sock turns a whole load of white washing pink.

Read the New Testament with new eyes, and you'll see that future hope is always described in expectation of Jesus' return. Jesus' return means two things: Judgement on the world, in which all evil is dealt with and justice restored and all things reconciled to Jesus; and the resurrection of our bodies alongside the redemption of all creation.

This is far, far richer, more wondrous, robust, and worthy of praise than the escapism of left behind type rapture. Every reason to persevere and remain faithful through the severest times of tribulation. Praise God!

 

[B-A-C]

Rapture theology, as far as I can see, comes from a misinterpretation of two important Bible passages. The first is in Matthew 24

Perhaps the timing of it... pre, mid, post, or preterist view. I agree the timing is the big debate here. Is it one event or multiple events. Those things can be debated.

But no matter when it is, no matter if it already happened, no matter if it includes all Christians or only Jews..... the Bible says it will happen, period. That cannot be debated.

Rapture simply mean "caught up" or "gather together". It's really that simple.

Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

1Thes 4:17 ; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

So maybe you believe it already happened, maybe you believe it will happen at the second coming, maybe you believe it will only happen for the Jews. Maybe you believe people won't go to heaven, they will just be gathered together on the Earth.
But make no mistake, the Bible says it WILL happen. It is not a mistranslation. It is not a mistake.

 

[Hekuran]

Perhaps the timing of it... pre, mid, post, or preterist view. I agree the timing is the big debate here. Is it one event or multiple events. Those things can be debated.

But no matter when it is, no matter if it already happened, no matter if it includes all Christians or only Jews..... the Bible says it will happen, period. That cannot be debated.

Rapture simply mean "caught up" or "gather together". It's really that simple.

Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

1Thes 4:17 ; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

So maybe you believe it already happened, maybe you believe it will happen at the second coming, maybe you believe it will only happen for the Jews. Maybe you believe people won't go to heaven, they will just be gathered together on the Earth.
But make no mistake, the Bible says it WILL happen. It is not a mistranslation. It is not a mistake.

,
When I say rapture theology, I mean the idea that there will be an event in which people are suddenly transported from earth to heaven, with others left behind. I find no evidence for this in Scripture, and believe it is wholly wrong, misleading and counter to good discipleship.

 

[Eddie Deepfield]

,
When I say rapture theology, I mean the idea that there will be an event in which people are suddenly transported from earth to heaven, with others left behind. I find no evidence for this in Scripture, and believe it is wholly wrong, misleading and counter to good discipleship.

My recent research has now found out during the course of this OP, that i may have been unwittingly deceived by my Church.

Who taught about the rapture and its taking place mid-trib.

I must admit i always thought it a bit far fetched that living people would just rise up into the sky like lighter than air balloons. And now i find out that most main stream denominations do not accept rapture theology.

Only American fundamentalists do.

 

[B-A-C]

I must admit i always thought it a bit far fetched that living people would just rise up into the sky like lighter than air balloons

... and yet.

2Kings 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

Gen 5:24; Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Acts 1:9; And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10; And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
Acts 1:11; They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Do you think the laws of gravity and physics are greater than God?

 

[Curtis]

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Hekuran]

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The image is of Jesus returning in glory, the dead rise from the grave and together we rise to receive him and join the victory parade.

With all things reconciled to Christ we reign with him on earth forever.

 

[Charlie24]

The image is of Jesus returning in glory, the dead rise from the grave and together we rise to receive him and join the victory parade.

With all things reconciled to Christ we reign with him on earth forever.

Are you saying that Paul was using figurative language when explaining the resurrection?

 

[Hekuran]

Are you saying that Paul was using figurative language when explaining the resurrection?

Resurrection is real. Jesus rose from the dead and appeared before the disciples in flesh and blood, walked and talked with them and ate with them.

We will one day rise and be transformed to glorified bodies in the same way.

Figurative language is needed when talking about Jesus' return because it's an event that is beyond our experience, and we don't have the literal words to describe it or explain it properly. Like caterpillars, if they could talk, would struggle to find words to speak about flying.

But my faith rests on the resurrection being a real, physical event for all of us who trust in Jesus.