Christians and the Tribulation

[Charlie24]

Resurrection is real. Jesus rose from the dead and appeared before the disciples in flesh and blood, walked and talked with them and ate with them.

We will one day rise and be transformed to glorified bodies in the same way.

Figurative language is needed when talking about Jesus' return because it's an event that is beyond our experience, and we don't have the literal words to describe it or explain it properly. Like caterpillars, if they could talk, would struggle to find words to speak about flying.

But my faith rests on the resurrection being a real, physical event for all of us who trust in Jesus.

The reason I asked, you started your post with "The image is Jesus returning..."

That would lead one to believe you are saying Paul was speaking figuratively.

In other words, what he's saying is not a literal resurrection the way he describes it.

 

[Charlie24]

The reason I asked, you started your post with "The image is Jesus returning..."

That would lead one to believe you are saying Paul was speaking figuratively.

In other words, what he's saying is not a literal resurrection the way he describes it.

But I see what you're saying. I wanted to make sure because we disagree on so many things.

 

[KingJ]

"The idea of a rapture as it is currently defined is not found in historic Christianity, and is a relatively recent doctrine originating from the 1830s."

Rapture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Notice anything else that came from the 1800's? (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists, Christian Science...)

Yeah, don't let anyone mislead you.

Rhema

@Rhema I have copy pasted your post in the other thread here. Let's discuss here.

Please answer the following and grasp that the rapture is a Rom 14:5 type disagreement. No need to get aggressive and rude.

1. Explain to me with scripture why you don't believe in the rapture. You don't have to overkill.
2. Do you believe Paul did not expect Jesus to return?
3. Did the early Jews who converted to Christianity not expect Jesus to return and rescue them?
4. What is a Christian and how do you become one? (This is a very important fact that is relevant, I will explain after you answer).

 

[Butch5]

How strong is the biblical evidence for a unique event, "The Great Tribulation", that stands above and beyond the tribulations experienced by believers in every age since Jesus ascended to heaven?

I would submit this passage for consideration. The words, not since the beginning of the world, nor shall be, seem to convey a very specific time. Also, the words, "those days" again seem to imply a very specific time period.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. (Mat 23:21-22 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

There is absolutely no scripture that says Christians saved by faith in Jesus will go through the tribulation.

The only way to become a Christian / clothed in white / receive a crown during the tribulation is A. Mentioned in Rev 2:10 and B. Rev 20:4, Rejecting the mark of the beast and somehow escaping Rev 2:10.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

It is this verse that also proves a pre-trib rapture. It makes no sense that one justified by faith now also needs to be justified by torment and martyrdom.



Yes, tribulation saints, justified by Rev 2:10 and rejecting the mark of the beast.



Matt 24 does not refer to the tribulation until verse 15. We will endure suffering up to the point the antichrist reveals himself in the temple. It seems that verse 15 ushers in the tribulation as we read in verse 16-28 the following: then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.



The elect are those who stand for Jesus in the tribulation. IE Rev 2:10 saints and others.

The days are shortened. It is cut at 3,5 years. The point at which the seventh seal is opened and the seven trumpets sound. For those who resist the mark of the beast but do not die, they rejoice when they see God reigning plagues on the wicked.



This passage explains exactly what I am trying to communicate. The yellow you have highlighted explains the two types of elect from the tribulation.



It will be a mix. If we consider Jews in WW2, it was 38% of all Jews. Per Matt 24:21 it could be a worse ratio then that.



Sure, those who do not receive the mark of the beast per the scripture you quoted in Rev 20:4. They are purified and refined. These are not pre-trib saints. They are tribulation saints.



It could be both spiritual and physical. We know that armies will assemble against Israel. Many, many Jews will be tribulation saints.



No Christians go through the tribulation. But people become Christians in it. Enduring as Matt 24:21 says ''For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now and never to be equaled again.''

The antichrist makes his appearance at the middle of the Tribulation.

 

[B-A-C]

There is absolutely no scripture that says Christians saved by faith in Jesus will go through the tribulation.

Yes, tribulation saints, justified by Rev 2:10 and rejecting the mark of the beast.

There seems to be a conflict between these two statements. No saved Christians will go through the tribulation.
.. but yet there will be tribulation saints? Are the tribulation saints not saved Christians?

No Christians go through the tribulation. But people become Christians in it.

????? How do you not go through it, but yet be "in" it?

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

It says here, the timeframe is ... " a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world".
The very next sentence says, the days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, why are the elect still here?

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

"AFTER" the tribulation, the Son of Man ( Jesus ) will send forth his angels to gather the elect. It specifically says "after the tribulation". Why are the elect still here, especially if they were already raptured?
Are there two raptures? One before the tribulation and one after? Where is the Bible verse that says He will gather up the saint "before" the tribulation?

Let us move from Matthew over to Mark.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

same thing, the elect are still here during the tribulation.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

The elect do not get gathered up until "after that tribulation". There is no verse that says "before" that tribulation.

2Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

It says here, "with regard to the coming of our Lord" and His "gathering together to Him", that this will not happen unless the apostacy happens first.
It says this will not happen, until the beast is revealed, and he takes his place in the temple.
It specifically says here no Christians will be gathered together with Jesus, until beast takes his place in the temple.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

This says the "first" resurrection will be after the tribulation, perhaps even after the millennial reign has started. If this is the first one, how can anyone be resurrected before this time?

 

[B-A-C]

Direct scripture vs indirect reasoning.

If I own a car, and it's a red car, I could come right out and say "I own a red car". That's a direct statement.

Maybe I have 6 or 7 friends, they've all seen my car. They know what color it is. But they never come right out and say it.
They might say.. "it's not blue", or "it's not yellow", it's not black, or white, green or silver or orange or gray or brown or beige. You might be able to deduce from this information that the car is purple.
( when the car is really red ).

I've given two scriptures that directly say "after the tribulation" ... the Jesus will have His angels gather up the elect.
I've given another scripture that directly says, this won't happen until the beast is revealed.

Now, then there are some other seemingly related scriptures that says things like "you are not destined for wrath" and "you will not have to face the hour of testing".
and some people will take these to mean we don't go through the tribulation. But they are deducing this from other verses that are not Jesus himself speaking
directly about the rapture ( gather together ) of the saints.

Why not go with the direct scripture, rather than trying to deduce something else that may not directly be related.
"the hour of testing" may not have anything at all to do with the tribulation, you are guessing that it does,

 

[Butch5]

Direct scripture vs indirect reasoning.

If I own a car, and it's a red car, I could come right out and say "I own a red car". That's a direct statement.

Maybe I have 6 or 7 friends, they've all seen my car. They know what color it is. But they never come right out and say it.
They might say.. "it's not blue", or "it's not yellow", it's not black, or white, green or silver or orange or gray or brown or beige. You might be able to deduce from this information that the car is purple.
( when the car is really red ).

I've given two scriptures that directly say "after the tribulation" ... the Jesus will have His angels gather up the elect.
I've given another scripture that directly says, this won't happen until the beast is revealed.

Now, then there are some other seemingly related scriptures that says things like "you are not destined for wrath" and "you will not have to face the hour of testing".
and some people will take these to mean we don't go through the tribulation. But they are deducing this from other verses that are not Jesus himself speaking
directly about the rapture ( gather together ) of the saints.

Why not go with the direct scripture, rather than trying to deduce something else that may not directly be related.
"the hour of testing" may not have anything at all to do with the tribulation, you are guessing that it does,

Welcome to my world, my friend. It's frustrating, isn't it. When there is Scripture directly dealing with a subject and it is crystal clear, yet people take vague passages that can be understood differently and ignore the clear passages. It makes you want ot pull your hair out.

 

[KingJ]

There seems to be a conflict between these two statements. No saved Christians will go through the tribulation.
.. but yet there will be tribulation saints? Are the tribulation saints not saved Christians?

Hi BAC, happy to discuss with you .

I probably should have better clarified.

I believe 'Christian' is best defined as 'Christ follower'. I believe Christians living pre tribulation are Christians from Paul's teaching. Tribulation saints / Christians in the tribulation are Christians from John's teaching.

Note how Rev 2:10 does not require faith in Jesus like Paul teaches.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Your faith in the resurrection will be as effective as a woke gen Z private is in a warzone .

 

[KingJ]

The antichrist makes his appearance at the middle of the Tribulation.

I don't agree. Matt 24:15 says ''When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place.''

Then: Matt 24:16-17 becomes relevant

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

 

[KingJ]

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

It says here, the timeframe is ... " a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world".
The very next sentence says, the days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, why are the elect still here?

1. How can God shorten the prophecy of a seven year period? Seven years = seven years.

2. Matt 24:1-14 speaks to a pre-trib turmoil as the antichrist is revealed in verse 15.

As such, I take verse 16 as a verse that applies to pre trib. The only time God can shorten is the pre trib suffering. What happens in the tribulation is already set in stone.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

"AFTER" the tribulation, the Son of Man ( Jesus ) will send forth his angels to gather the elect. It specifically says "after the tribulation". Why are the elect still here, especially if they were already raptured?
Are there two raptures? One before the tribulation and one after? Where is the Bible verse that says He will gather up the saint "before" the tribulation?

This is the second coming of Jesus. The end of the tribulation. The elect are the tribulations saints / Christians from John's teaching. Those who rejected the mark of the beast.

Let us move from Matthew over to Mark.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

same thing, the elect are still here during the tribulation.

See my first explanation above.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

The elect do not get gathered up until "after that tribulation". There is no verse that says "before" that tribulation.

Separate topic to the rapture.

2Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

It says here, "with regard to the coming of our Lord" and His "gathering together to Him", that this will not happen unless the apostacy happens first.
It says this will not happen, until the beast is revealed, and he takes his place in the temple.
It specifically says here no Christians will be gathered together with Jesus, until beast takes his place in the temple.

No offence but this is a cherry pick.

You need to add to this verses 6-8. Every verse needs to be properly read as you are doing with 1-4.
2 Thess 2:6-8:

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So, when you read verses 1-8 you see that unless the Holy Spirit is removed, the antichrist and devil cannot have their way. It is because of this passage of scripture that I believe the time between rapture and start of the tribulation will be very close.

Remember the tribulation is a date known by all angels and demons. It is not an unknown date. Nobody knows the exact time of the rapture. But what we do know, is that God will shorten those days. To better understand that, we need to look at how long it took to build Noah's ark. It took between 50 to 120 years. Imagine that. God says ''I hate the sins of the people on earth and will destroy them'', 120 years later it starts raining.

God wants to maximize His return of people in heaven, so He will ensure that the devil is held back and can only go ''extremish'' evil very close to the start of the tribulation. We can expect evil humans, demons and the devil to be giving us and all good people a hard time before the tribulation. But the antichrist and the ''great tribulation'' only starts when we and the Holy Spirit are gone.

God will never leave nor forsake us Heb 13:5. He that restrains will never leave without us. Imagine that. How will that discussion in heaven go with God over a cup of tea? ''Hi God, please explain why you completely and utterly abandoned me with the enemy''.

God cannot help those people who are not ready for the rapture. You have quoted the parable of the ten virgins before. It is true with regards to the rapture.

 

[Butch5]

I don't agree. Matt 24:15 says ''When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place.''

Then: Matt 24:16-17 becomes relevant

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

What does this show?

 

[Rhema]

(Mat 23:21-22 KJV)

Not wanting to be a nudge, Butch, but... it's chapter 24. I know you know this, but the (can we even now say "peanut gallery"?) ... quiet readers might get confused.

 

[B-A-C]

I believe 'Christian' is best defined as 'Christ follower'. I believe Christians living pre tribulation are Christians from Paul's teaching. Tribulation saints / Christians in the tribulation are Christians from John's teaching.

Note how Rev 2:10 does not require faith in Jesus like Paul teaches.

???? There is a way to God without believing in Jesus? ????

 

[Rhema]

What does this show?

I believe he is conflating the antichrist with the abomination of desolation.

It's been very hard to follow both his context and his definitional framework.
(They are not well explained.)

 

[Rhema]

???? There is a way to God without believing in Jesus? ????

I believe he is separating the "Saved-by-a-Faith-that-is-unseen" (what he calls Paul's Christians?), with others who are (somehow) saved when things are no longer unseen during the time period of Revelation (those he call's John-Christians).

It's been very hard to follow both his context and his definitional framework.
(They are not well explained.)

 

[Butch5]

Not wanting to be a nudge, Butch, but... it's chapter 24. I know you know this, but the (can we even now say "peanut gallery"?) ... quiet readers might get confused.

Yeah, the software usually adds it. For some reason it's not currently. I don't know why. I'm doing this on my phone too, which doesn't help.

 

[KingJ]

???? There is a way to God without believing in Jesus? ????

I explain in post 270, what part is confusing?

Does Rev 2:10 state believing in Jesus? Yes or No?

 

[Rhema]

In the tribulation sure. Rev 2:10.

It says nothing about faith in Jesus.

If I recall correctly, you believe history to be separated into distinct church "dispensations" that follow one after the other.

BUT, Rev 2:10 is within the letter to the Church in Smyrna. Then follows Pergamos; Thyatira; Sardis; and Philadelphia before one even gets to Laodicea. If you place your "end-times John Believers" after Laodicea, an instruction to those in Smyrna can hardly apply.

So I'm sure you can see why many are confused here.

Rhema