Free will discussion 452,637

[Samson2020]

You still haven't addressed all those verses about people going to the lake of fire and brimstone. You just steamroll along as if they don't exist.
In order for a doctrine to be valid, it has to agree with all other scripture.

Some would take the fact "the carnal mind cannot be subject to God" as a clue that the carnal man cannot be subject to God. Therefore they are not saved.

How can we be subject to God... if we can't be subject to God?

I can say the same to you in that the scripture I put forth says all are justified and will come to life because of what Jesus did. That is Gods law.
Hell as it is used today is to represent a place where an immortal soul will be tormented forever, only problem is a man does not have an immortal soul until he is
born of the spirit.
The words sheol and hades translated as hell mean nothing more nor less than the grave, gehenna the third word translated as hell is actually the garbage dump in the valley
of Hinnom where the trash from Jerusalem was burned. It is poetic spiritual language that promises to remove your trash, in the fire. representing the incineration of your fallen, cursed, Adamic nature.

"If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out............ to be cast into hell fire: where their worm (Satan) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire."
"Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work, and I have created the waster to destroy."

Destroy what? Your carnal mind through the salting of Holy Ghost fire which everyone will be a participant in. "For our God is a consuming fire."

Subjection to God can only begin when he decides to let you know that he is and has given you faith to believe. Otherwise your still under the original condemnation
spoken of in Romans 5:18 which was Gods doing because of Adams one act of disobedience. It is also Gods doing to justify all and eventually give life to all because
of Jesus' one act of righteousness. This and many other verses claim a total victory for all mankind in that they will attain unto spiritual life through Christ. But every man
in his own order, and only God knows the order.
Besides who ever said that all there is to be written has been written? The New testament is only 2000 yrs old, thats like 2 days to God. If he hid it in the Old testament like he did the New testament then it's there to see if you have the spiritual eyes to see it. Rev 3:18 comes to mind.

The second death is nothing less nor more than a regathering of all the false religions, and beastly governments, Satan, death, the grave(Hell) etc... that you see today in
this the first death for a second crop of sons unto the Father to glorify him further. The picture is painted with spiritual language and should not to be taken literally, but figuratively or you'll get the wrong understanding of whats being said.
The concept of hell as taught today did not even exist until around 553 AD when the Catholics made it heresy to believe or teach universal salvation at the 5th Ecumenical Council, which the writers Clement of Alexandria 150-215 a.d., Origen, martyred 254 a.d. for his writings (a true Christian would never kill another man for his wrong belief but would leave him for God to correct so who killed Origen?), and Gregory of Nyssa 335-395 a.d. all wrote extensively about salvation of all. But free justification and life for all men bought and paid for by the blood of Christ is not convenient to power and money hungry religious leaders. Thus universal salvation became heresy according to the Mother of all Harlots at the 5th Ecumenical Council and a slaughter ensued of all those who were teaching the truth.
Like Jesus said "...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

 

[Samson2020]

Romans 5:6; continues into Romans 6.

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

I believe you misunderstood my meaning. In saying we were or are ungodly, we were and most still are ungodly and he died for all of the ungodly which included everybody.
Never said that we would continue in sin knowingly. And thats what growing up into Christ is about.

 

[B-A-C]

I believe you misunderstood my meaning. In saying we were or are ungodly, we were and most still are ungodly and he died for all of the ungodly which included everybody.

And my point is... if you're still ungodly, His death won't help you.

All of us were born into sin. All of us were ungodly at some point in our lives. Some of us accepted Jesus. So He died for the ungodly in the sense that all were ungodly once.
But He didn't die for the ungodly in the sense that all (the ungodly) will be saved.

Never said that we would continue in sin knowingly. And thats what growing up into Christ is about.

So does that mean you are backing down off Universalism? Or do you believe everyone is "growing up in Christ" even if they don't know Him?

 

[B-A-C]

The concept of hell as taught today did not even exist until around 553 AD when the Catholics made it heresy to believe or teach universal salvation at the 5th Ecumenical Council,

I've heard all this before. But I don't believe that Gehenna (a word in the Bible) is the same thing as the Lake of Fire.
In fact Hell will eventually be thrown into the Lake of fire. (and everyone in it). This is the second death.

Being tested by fire, and getting a little bit singed, is a far cry from being thrown into the lake of fire where you are tormented forever and ever.

edit: the word Tartarus is also in the Bible.

 

[KittyLinda]

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (KJV: Revelation 22:17)

 

[Samson2020]

And my point is... if you're still ungodly, His death won't help you.

All of us were born into sin. All of us were ungodly at some point in our lives. Some of us accepted Jesus. So He died for the ungodly in the sense that all were ungodly once.
But He didn't die for the ungodly in the sense that all (the ungodly) will be saved.



So does that mean you are backing down off Universalism? Or do you believe everyone is "growing up in Christ" even if they don't know Him?

Never. But every man will grow up into Christ as the Father calls him to be a Son and has mercy on the sinner. Gods call as to when each is drug to Jesus.
Our problem is you cannot see past the first dispensation, I however can see 3. As long as you are stuck in the first as the only one then you will never get this.

Someday the Lord will show you, maybe tomorrow maybe 2000 yrs from now but none the less you will come to see eventually.
As it is written:
"He gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time."

 

[Sue D.]

I'm just now finding this conversation. Samson2020 mentioned dispensationalism -- there being three and he feels that B.A.C can't see past the 1st dispensation. Maybe I'm not understanding 'dispensations' but the Old Testament dispensation was the Law -- New Testament is by 'grace'. What 3rd dispensation would there Be?

Born again believers are to be growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No one can be growing in Christ if they're not born again.

 

[Samson2020]

Hidden manna Sue.

To quote Glenn Campbell in True Grit " You couldn't see it if you saw it." Not meant to be derogatory but if you havn't earned the right to see it then he will not allow you
to understand.
Line upon line, precept upon precept.

 

[Sue D.]

Hidden manna Sue.

To quote Glenn Campbell in True Grit " You couldn't see it if you saw it." Not meant to be derogatory but if you havn't earned the right to see it then he will not allow you
to understand.
Line upon line, precept upon precept.

You realize, of course, that you sound rather arrogant. I'm very aware of Precepts studying. Was involved with that for several years.

 

[Samson2020]

Ephesians 1:10

NLT "And this is the plan: at the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ-everything in heaven and on earth."

NIV "To be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment-to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ."

CSB "As a plan for the right time-to bring everything together in Christ, both things in heaven and things on earth in him."

KJV " That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in him:"


1 Co 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive."
1 Co 15:23 "BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER: Christ the firstfruits; then they which are Christs at his coming."
1Co 15:24 "Then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power."
1 Co 15:25 "For he must reign, until he hath put all enemies under his feet."
1 Co 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Hos 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance
shall be hid from mine eyes."

Man was not made to just live, eat, sleep, reproduce, and die. He was made to experience good and evil, and with that knowledge be like God. Man cannot control
evil without being born again from the seed of God. Once this occurs there is a period of time where the new creation in man begins to war against the flesh which is
controlled by sinful nature (carnal mind, born with it by design). This carnal mind is the enemy of the new son and is to be destroyed by the spiritual son, by bringing all
of the members of the body under control of the mind of Christ when matured. It is and always was Gods intention to put everyone through this experience in order to have as many sons as humans that ever existed. God would have no satisfaction in eternal torture of persons that he created because of wounded pride, that would make him worse than any degenerate the world has ever seen. We love him because he first loved us. His love will bring repentance and a new spiritual birth to all the spirits of man and at that moment death will have been destroyed, in that no one can spiritually die ever again. Remember "EVERY MAN in his own order" God decides this timing just as he decided when Moses or youor Jesus or David would be born on the earth and accomplish whatever goal(s) he had set for them to accomplish, in the same way he will have ALL to come to the new spiritual life that Jesus acquired for ALL by his one act of righteousness.

Romans 5:18
NLT "Yes, Adams one sin brings condemnation for everyone, BUT Christs one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone."
NIV "Consequently just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for ALL people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for ALL people."
CSB "So then as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is justification leading to life for everyone."

The dispensations of times are hidden but I will show you one verse. Study it and maybe eventually you will see it.

Isaiah 59:21 "As for me, This is my covenant with them, saith the LORD, My Spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and forever."
Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the LORD God is upon me........
Luke 4:18 " The Spirit of the LORD is upon me..............

I think we see whom he was talking about. Now who are the seed? Are they not those whom have received the baptism and been translated into the kingdom?
The kings of the King.
Then who are the seeds seed? And how did they become the seed of the seed of Jesus Christ?
We who overcome are granted to sit in his throne just as he sat down in his Fathers throne. And what is he doing now? Dare to imagine and spiritually discern.
I will leave it at that.

 

[Samson2020]

You realize, of course, that you sound rather arrogant. I'm very aware of Precepts studying. Was involved with that for several years.

Thats not the way it was intended. I have no boasting in that I have been given this for without his help I would have never overcome in the first place.

Rev 2:12-17 the reward is the hidden manna and a new name.

 

[Sue D.]

Ephesians 1:10

NLT "And this is the plan: at the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ-everything in heaven and on earth."

NIV "To be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment-to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ."

CSB "As a plan for the right time-to bring everything together in Christ, both things in heaven and things on earth in him."

KJV " That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in him:"


1 Co 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive."
1 Co 15:23 "BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER: Christ the firstfruits; then they which are Christs at his coming."
1Co 15:24 "Then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power."
1 Co 15:25 "For he must reign, until he hath put all enemies under his feet."
1 Co 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Hos 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance
shall be hid from mine eyes."

Man was not made to just live, eat, sleep, reproduce, and die. He was made to experience good and evil, and with that knowledge be like God. Man cannot control
evil without being born again from the seed of God. Once this occurs there is a period of time where the new creation in man begins to war against the flesh which is
controlled by sinful nature (carnal mind, born with it by design). This carnal mind is the enemy of the new son and is to be destroyed by the spiritual son, by bringing all
of the members of the body under control of the mind of Christ when matured. It is and always was Gods intention to put everyone through this experience in order to have as many sons as humans that ever existed. God would have no satisfaction in eternal torture of persons that he created because of wounded pride, that would make him worse than any degenerate the world has ever seen. We love him because he first loved us. His love will bring repentance and a new spiritual birth to all the spirits of man and at that moment death will have been destroyed, in that no one can spiritually die ever again. Remember "EVERY MAN in his own order" God decides this timing just as he decided when Moses or youor Jesus or David would be born on the earth and accomplish whatever goal(s) he had set for them to accomplish, in the same way he will have ALL to come to the new spiritual life that Jesus acquired for ALL by his one act of righteousness.

Romans 5:18
NLT "Yes, Adams one sin brings condemnation for everyone, BUT Christs one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone."
NIV "Consequently just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for ALL people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for ALL people."
CSB "So then as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is justification leading to life for everyone."

The dispensations of times are hidden but I will show you one verse. Study it and maybe eventually you will see it.

Isaiah 59:21 "As for me, This is my covenant with them, saith the LORD, My Spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and forever."
Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the LORD God is upon me........
Luke 4:18 " The Spirit of the LORD is upon me..............

I think we see whom he was talking about. Now who are the seed? Are they not those whom have received the baptism and been translated into the kingdom?
The kings of the King.
Then who are the seeds seed? And how did they become the seed of the seed of Jesus Christ?
We who overcome are granted to sit in his throne just as he sat down in his Fathers throne. And what is he doing now? Dare to imagine and spiritually discern.
I will leave it at that.

One of your first assumptions is Not correct -- Adam and Eve were Not meant to know both good and evil. They Became aware OF that because they disobeyed God. God told them to Not eat of the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. Satan tempted them to eat Anyway -- they ate of that and because of their disobedience they all of a sudden their eyes were opened and they knew both good and evil. They believed satan's lie rather than Trust God's Word. They were created to be in a continual state of innocence. Mankind was never meant to be like God and never will be like God.

And man kind will Never be able to control evil -- not even after being born again. God is the Only One in control of everything. His Sovereignty.

To quote Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me. To preach good tidings to the poor: He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the opening of the prison to those who are bound."

And Luke 4:18 " The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me. Because He has anointed Me To preach the Gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; "

"have received the baptism and been translated into the kingdom?" Are you referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit -- meaning what happens immediately upon salvation? The Holy Spirit comes to indwell each believer. So an immersion / baptizing/ Does take place when the Holy Spirit comes to indwell each believer. It's an automatic thing that takes place. But baptism by immersion After salvation is a public acknowledgement of the decision that has already been made by the individual. And baptism by immersion is meant to be a public event. Either with the entire church body seeing it or a group of believers at a lake or some body of water. Now -- there Are situations in which a person Can't be baptized right away or sometimes Never. So it's Not a part Of salvation.

No one becomes a King like the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

And I will leave it at that.

 

[Samson2020]

Matthew 10:25 "It is enough that the disciple be as his master, and the servant as his lord."

 

[Born Again 2004]

I believe Jesus knew about the character of Judas when he accepted him, but someone had to do the job and betray Jesus, I have yet to come to an understanding about the betrayal of Jesus or the need for it, I pray that the Lord will open my eyes to understand. As for the universalists and the antimonianists, whoever they are, I am content to believe in the written word, and that speaks about sheep and goats, also my own experience is similar to Paul's 'what a wretched man I am, who will rescue me from this body of death' I don't understand why God chooses who he does. With my track record, I am amazed that he would choose me.

Jesus himself admitted that he does only as God leads. I have always felt the answer to Judas was fairly simple
The betrayal was prophesy and Jesus must have died to fulfill the ultimate one!

 

[Sue D.]

The preceding verse reads " A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. "

And the rest of Matthew 10:25 "It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household.
vs 26 "Therefore do not fer them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known."

 

[Sue D.]

My post # 75 was meant to go along with #72 and 73. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Samson2020]

" A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. "

Never said he was.

I quoted this

"It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher and a servant like his master.

Referring that the disciple should be as Jesus. After all when we see him it will be because we will be like him and nothing shall be impossible unto us.

 

[Sue D.]

We are hear on earth now -- being a disciple is being His follower. And believers should be reaching out to others with the Gospel unto salvation. That does not make us like Jesus. When 'we' born again believers Do see Christ -- He will be Divine in nature -- we won't be. We will be born again mortals -- well -- we will put on immortality because eternity continues Forever. Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- deity -- no one ever attains status of Deity. No one becomes a 'little God'

 

[PloughBoy]

Never said he was.

I quoted this

Referring that the disciple should be as Jesus. After all when we see him it will be because we will be like him and nothing shall be impossible unto us.

Good luck, getting that across "That one, will get you lockup and put in a"Straight Jacket"

 

[bychristalone]

Pretty simple.

John 1:12-13 ~ But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:63-65 ~ It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."