If the church is “Raptured” in this generation, what are the people left still, in the “Institutionalized church”, called?

[Brother-Paul]

I think the earth atmosphere is considered the earth.

Greeting Dave

God created the earth, that is our planet. He created everything on it.

Psalm 104:24 (NIV2011)
How many are your works, LORD! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures.

From earth to the edge of the atmosphere is the first heaven, the second heaven is what we call outer space, the third heaven is God's abode and is above the first two heavens.

FIRST HEAVEN - earth to edge of the atmosphere
Genesis 1:20-22 (NIV2011)
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.”

SECOND HEAVEN - this is outer space where we see the stars etc
Genesis 15:4-5 (NIV2011)
4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.”
5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Deuteronomy 4:19 (NIV2011)
19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

Psalm 8:3-4 (NIV2011)
3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?

THIRD HEAVEN - God's abode
Ephesians 1:20-21 (NIV2011)
20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NIV2011)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

God calls our planet earth, He calls the people on the earth the world.

1 Corinthians 10:26 (NIV2011)
for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”

Of those on the earth there are the saved souls and lost souls.

The lost souls belonging to sin, the world and the devil

The saved souls belong to Christ, no longer belonging to sin, the world and the devil.

Blessings

 

[Samson2020]

Good good thanks for the share @Sue D. ,,,,,,,,,

we know that the Lord comes back and at the end of tribulation with all the saints that have died for his second coming, to me the saints that have died seem to naturally fit the description of the "dead in Christ" meaning those in heaven get there glorified bodies first when they come back with Jesus,, and while in the air they call up all those "left" after the tribulation to receive there glorified bodies, then altogether they will descend on to earth to start the 1000 year rule................

.and the question to pre-trib people.... does the Lord have three comings?? because the bible is clear he only has a second coming, I think the earth atmosphere is considered the earth.

just speculating because there is no way anyone can say with 100% certainty that they know when the rapture is, they have to take words like dead in Christ,,, second coming and give them different meanings maybe,, to make pre-trib work, . for Me I am going to do my best to prepare myself with the Lords help of course............

either way if we do go through tribulation I think it is clear we will be spared from the wrath of God, but it will still be a very difficult time, look at all the apostles they died for Jesus, we are told over and over in the bible that we must loose are life to gain life,,,,,,,,,

this life is all about testing and maturing in Christ, . going through the tribulation to prove ourselves worthy, should excite us in a way should it not??

Add Daniel 11:32-36 to the above and the opening of the 5th seal in Revelation 6:9-11 to complete the picture and understand why.

 

[Brother-Paul]

we know that the Lord comes back and at the end of tribulation with all the saints that have died for his second coming, to me the saints that have died seem to naturally fit the description of the "dead in Christ" meaning those in heaven get there glorified bodies first when they come back with Jesus,, and while in the air they call up all those "left" after the tribulation to receive there glorified bodies, then altogether they will descend on to earth to start the 1000 year rule

Greetings Dave

This is an interesting conversation about the Rapture, may I ask something here regarding the comments above.

I agree the 'dead in Christ' are the born again believers who have died in this life. The question would be who is in heaven? God, Jesus, Angels, some martyrs.

The dead in Christ sleep in the grave until Christ's return, immediately after the tribulation, we assume this is the tribulation period, which includes the tribulation and the great tribulation. The Full 7 years.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV)
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The questions I have are

When do we get our Glorified body? When we meet our Lord in the air, at His coming in Glory. Either from the grave if we are asleep or from the earth if we are alive, the dead in Christ first.

Do we then come with Him to the Mount of Olives and witness Him defeat the devil and Jerusalem split in two with a mighty earthquake?

 

[B-A-C]

You have to recieve Jesus in your heart . Accept him in your heart . Love God with all your heart

To you it's about loving God. Ok... if that's true.

John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Do you love Jesus? If so, that's great.

John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

Are you doing the things Jesus says someone who loves Him would do?

John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Are you doing the things Jesus says will let you abide in His love?

1Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Christ, and Christ abides in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Does Christ abide in me?

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Did these people who were doing things in Jesus's name accept Him into their hearts?
If not, why do you think that?

Matt 25:10; "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
Matt 25:11; "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
Matt 25:12; "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'

Do you think the five foolish virgins didn't accept Jesus into their hearts?
If not, where did they get the oil?

 

[Dave M]

The question would be who is in heaven?

Brother Paul thanks for the thoughtful replies, it is appreciated.

To my understanding our spirits are in heaven with Christ when we die, our earthy bodies are asleep in the ground when we depart from them at our death. Is this something we agree on??

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23
I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed

When do we get our Glorified body?

short answer

according to 1 corinthians 15-52 we get changed meaning glorified bodies at the last trumpet.

My thinking is we get them when we are changed in a twinkle of and eye if we are alive when Christ return, but not before he gives those who return with him there glorified bodies, the souls in heaven, and that seems to take place right after tribulation..

1 Corinthians 15:52……..In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV)
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


. What do you think Brother Paul??

I do not know the answer to your last question, but I think once we are with the lord we will always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings brother,

Brother Paul thanks for the thoughtful replies, it is appreciated.

To my understanding our spirits are in heaven with Christ when we die, our earthy bodies are asleep in the ground when we depart from them at our death. Is this something we agree on??

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23
I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed

Yes my friend, we are in agreement, that is my understanding also.

short answer

according to 1 corinthians 15-52 we get changed meaning glorified bodies at the last trumpet.

My thinking is we get them when we are changed in a twinkle of and eye if we are alive when Christ return, but not before he gives those who return with him there glorified bodies, the souls in heaven, and that seems to take place right after tribulation..

1 Corinthians 15:52……..In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV)
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What do you think Brother Paul??

I do not know the answer to your last question, but I think once we are with the lord we will always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

I think we are singing off the same hymn sheet to this point my friend.


Regarding the creation of man, some believe we are three items flesh, spirit and soul, I am not sure, what are your thoughts Dave, meanwhile I will share with you what I believe from The Word.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So according to Gen 2:7 man is a living soul made from dust and the breath of life. These two items are therefore one.


But there is also the spirit of man.

Job 32:8 (KJV)
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This tells us body back to the dust of the ground and man's spirit back to God who gave it. The spirit of man (lost soul) or The Spirit of God (saved soul)

1 Corinthians 2:11 (KJV)
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This last verse tells us that, our body, with whole spirit and soul, which is the spirit of God, having been sanctified, is that of the saved soul, it has be 'preserved blameless' unto Christ's coming in Glory. That is powerful and reassuring Words from God brother.

So when we die our body/soul goes back to the dust of the earth, our spirit (saved soul) goes to be with God in Heaven, until Christ returns in Glory and we meet with Him in the air, being made complete, body, spirit, soul, preserved blameless and Glorified, we are made new in Christ to be with Christ, we practice righteousness now, to become righteousness with Him... forever.

Dave or anyone else, correct me if I am wrong, but this is how I understand scripture on this topic, at this time.

Peace and Love

 

[Dave M]

Greetings brother,



Yes my friend, we are in agreement, that is my understanding also.




I think we are singing off the same hymn sheet to this point my friend.


Regarding the creation of man, some believe we are three items flesh, spirit and soul, I am not sure, what are your thoughts Dave, meanwhile I will share with you what I believe from The Word.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So according to Gen 2:7 man is a living soul made from dust and the breath of life. These two items are therefore one.


But there is also the spirit of man.

Job 32:8 (KJV)
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This tells us body back to the dust of the ground and man's spirit back to God who gave it. The spirit of man (lost soul) or The Spirit of God (saved soul)

1 Corinthians 2:11 (KJV)
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This last verse tells us that, our body, with whole spirit and soul, which is the spirit of God, having been sanctified, is that of the saved soul, it has be 'preserved blameless' unto Christ's coming in Glory. That is powerful and reassuring Words from God brother.

So when we die our body/soul goes back to the dust of the earth, our spirit (saved soul) goes to be with God in Heaven, until Christ returns in Glory and we meet with Him in the air, being made complete, body, spirit, soul, preserved blameless and Glorified, we are made new in Christ to be with Christ, we practice righteousness now, to become righteousness with Him... forever.

Dave or anyone else, correct me if I am wrong, but this is how I understand scripture on this topic, at this time.

Peace and Love

most excellent Brother

 

[Dave M]

Add Daniel 11:32-36 to the above and the opening of the 5th seal in Revelation 6:9-11 to complete the picture and understand why.

this is a good catch @Samson2020


all through scripture we are being told to deny ourselfs, take up our cross, loose are life to find it, this is so we are refined and purified, might be so we are strong enough to endure what the tribulation has in-store for us also. Are we 100% sold out for Jesus Christ, are we ready to walk the talk and die for Christ?? is it a honor and a joy of excitement to think of such a thing?? or does it bring fear??

Daniel 11:32–36



32 He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action. 33 hAnd the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder. 34 When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery, 35 and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, ipurified, and jmade white, until kthe time of the end, kfor it still awaits the appointed time.
36 “And the king shall ldo as he wills. mHe shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, nand shall speak astonishing things against othe God of gods. pHe shall prosper qtill the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

 

[Dave M]

@Brother-Paul

what say you on this?
When do we get our Glorified body?

 

[Brother-Paul]

most excellent Brother

Please Dave, where has that come from, I am an humble servant like you.

 

[Sue D.]

We get our glorified bodies either when the rapture takes place and we're still alive -- or when we die and are immediately with Jesus.

 

[Brother-Paul]

We get our glorified bodies either when the rapture takes place and we're still alive -- or when we die and are immediately with Jesus.

Greetings Sue please confirm scripture to confirm your comments. It is the latter I am more concerned with.

Bless you.

 

[Samson2020]

Greetings Sue please confirm scripture to confirm your comments. It is the latter I am more concerned with.

Bless you.

Matthew 24:29-31 should coincide with the change spoken of in 1 Co 15:52 "At the last trump.....we shall be changed.

is it a honor and a joy of excitement to think of such a thing?? or does it bring fear??

It should be a joy as it was for Jesus as those who are left alive will be workers with the Lord in bringing the last remnants of the first harvest.

 

[Sue D.]

@Samson2020 -- Matthew 24 isn't necessarily talking about After the 7 yr tribulation period. Because there has / have Always been times of tribulation. However -- it Is probably talking about the rapture taking place.
vs 36 - 42 of that same chapter -- definitely the rapture.

And, yes, those two passage coincide. The corruptable putting on incorruption.

 

[Samson2020]

@Samson2020 -- Matthew 24 isn't necessarily talking about After the 7 yr tribulation period. Because there has / have Always been times of tribulation. However -- it Is probably talking about the rapture taking place.
vs 36 - 42 of that same chapter -- definitely the rapture.

And, yes, those two passage coincide. The corruptable putting on incorruption.

Verse 21 of Matthew 24 settles it for me that it is the last and greatest tribulation on the earth.

21-"For then shall be great tribulation, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD to this time, NO NOR EVER SHALL BE."
Then in 29 he says IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS........ Seems pretty clear.
Don't really understand why you want so badly for there to be an escape from earthly travail? It is those who have lost there life that gain it, and honestly I don't see this
happening until you and I are both gone. I'm not exactly a spring chicken myself.

IMO the third king of the ten took power in 2019 the term limit on the kingship is 5 years so if nothing interrupted this chain there would be 39 years til the 11th king
who has 3&1/2 good years in power then the change into the 3&1/2 yr tribulation period. That adds up by my math to be 46 yrs from now. We are told that no one but
the Father knows the hour nor the day but once these things become somewhat apparent there is a timeline set up that gives a bit of an indication where we are.
Like I said earlier if the time line is not interrupted or the term limit changed for the kings or say one dies before the end of the term then the math holds up. If anything
happens then it doesn't, maybe a bit sooner or a bit later i.e. 2 terms for one of them etc....
This issue has been one that would seem to divide the children, but if one held to going through the tribulation period they would be more ready to lay down their
life as opposed to looking for an escape route that isn't going to come. If one holds to a pre or mid trib rapturing away and it doesn't happen, what happens to their
faith? We speak of being ready but for what? Escaping, or dying as a martyr in the service of the King? Always good to be ready no matter what you believe as many
are martyred in other countries and some even here in the US that we rarely hear about.
There was a woman preacher in SW Oklahoma years ago that was killed and hung upside down on a cross inside the church she preached at, the details you'll have to
read for yourself as they are too explicit to put on here. Carol Daniels Anadarko murdered in 2009. google it. It's a bit gruesome.

The words of Paul fit here as at any time any one of us could be slated for the same sacrifice as we the sheep are accounted for the slaughter. And Romans 12:1
"...........present your bodies a living sacrifice.............which is your reasonable service."

Perfect love casts out all fear. Is love perfected in all of us to this outcome? Can we truly drink of the same cup that Jesus drank?

 

[Sue D.]

There have Always been trials and tribulations in this world. Certainly in the days of Nero. And the Nazi concentration camps.

People have been dying as martyrs for centuries.

Why should born again believers have to live through the wrath of God that's meant for unrepentant Jews?

It's Not escapism. It's God's choosing the time for His Children to be taken out of this mess by His Son, Jesus Christ coming in the air for us.

What are 'we' supposed to be ready For? Jesus Coming back for His Bride / the Church.

 

[Dave M]

Why should born again believers have to live through the wrath of God that's meant for unrepentant Jews?

Hey Sue

The born again will not go through the wrath, if we do go through the tribulation, we will be protected from the wrath, is my understanding. There are lots of scripture that says a believer will not face the wrath, as long as we are in obedience. My thought is just as during the days of pass over he protected his people, so he will during the days of tribulation, does not mean it will be easy.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

 

[Dave M]

It also seems to say in revelations exactly what is the Wrath of God, this is only for the people who receive the mark, it says in scripture.

Revelation 16:1-21
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.” So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea. The third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood. And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say, “Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was, for you brought these judgments. .

 

[Samson2020]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This tells us body back to the dust of the ground and man's spirit back to God who gave it. The spirit of man (lost soul) or The Spirit of God (saved soul)

I would suggest that born again vs not is more appropriate at this time. But the real visual I get here is that in either case the spirit goes back to God.
So when the judgement comes and the body is resurrected and the spirit is given back to the man who had it, where is there any mercy in an eternal
torment of the spirit that was with God twice and now in the body of a man that isn't immortal to stay in an everlasting hell fire? For without the spirit the
body is dead.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I would suggest that born again vs not is more appropriate at this time. But the real visual I get here is that in either case the spirit goes back to God.
So when the judgement comes and the body is resurrected and the spirit is given back to the man who had it, where is there any mercy in an eternal
torment of the spirit that was with God twice and now in the body of a man that isn't immortal to stay in an everlasting hell fire? For without the spirit the
body is dead.

My thoughts are the same as yours for the first sentence brother, but then I considered the following

Saved soul dies - flesh body goes back to the dust of the earth, Spirit of God which dwelt in the saved soul goes back to God,

UnSaved soul - flesh body goes back to the dust of the earth, but the spirit of man is an unclean spirit, that would suggest the spirit doesn't go back to God. We know the devil only temps, it is the man that sins, hence his/her spirit is unclean. Heaven is Holy, there is no sin, there is nothing unclean, so I think this questions whether the spirit of man would go to heaven when he dies.

Interesting, what are your thoughts?