If the church is “Raptured” in this generation, what are the people left still, in the “Institutionalized church”, called?

[Sue D.]

@Dave M. -- during the 7 yr tribulation -- according to Rev. 7: 14 and following -- there are 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel who will be sealed vs 14 "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. " That is the group you are talking about being protected.

And then in Chapter 8 the 7th seal is opened. and there is silence in heaven for about half an hour." and after That are the series of seven angels with the seven trumpets and all the activities that happen.

 

[Dave M]

who will be sealed

2 Timothy 2:19
But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Revelation 9:4
They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[Dave M]

@Sue D.

no whear in the bible does it say we will not go through the tribulation, he promises us tribulation. I used to be a pre- trib beleiver, but the more I look into it,, I just dont see it. If you study the bible with out any outside influence to guide your thoughts it does not appear in the bible, to me anyways.

the age of grace extends into the tribulation, making those in who come to Christ in the tribulation still in the church

just my thoughts, I know anyone claiming to be 100% certain is only fooling themselves, because it is not 100% given in the bible, no matter what stance one takes there is speculation involved to come to a conclusion.

 

[Samson2020]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This verse was written in old testament times before the WAY was opened up to man so I would say that ALL spirits go back to God. The spirit of a man is dead in sin
and trespass if not born again. In going back to God I would suggest that it remains asleep until the time it is placed back in the body of the person it came out from.
The whole purpose of the earth and all that is in it is to have children of God that are like him. We must know and experience good and evil from all sides to be like
our Father, the reason for the tree in the first place. But when one is chosen to be born of the Spirit it is then that the spirit of the man becomes the new creation
which never existed before which is a spiritual son of God. Eventually through at least 2 death periods mankind will come into spiritual birth as all the spirits of men
must be made alive in order to destroy death. The kingdom of a God that is a spirit is a spiritual one, therefore all of his children must also be spiritual beings.

 

[Samson2020]

@Sue D.

no whear in the bible does it say we will not go through the tribulation, he promises us tribulation. I used to be a pre- trib beleiver, but the more I look into it,, I just dont see it. If you study the bible with out any outside influence to guide your thoughts it does not appear in the bible, to me anyways.

the age of grace extends into the tribulation, making those in who come to Christ in the tribulation still in the church

just my thoughts, I know anyone claiming to be 100% certain is only fooling themselves, because it is not 100% given in the bible, no matter what stance one takes there is speculation involved to come to a conclusion.

Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1290 days.
12:12 "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335th day.


1290 days is roughly 3&1/2 years which corresponds to the actual tribulation period. The 11th king rules for 7yrs but is only in tribulation mode for 3&1/2.

My question would be who is it in vs 12 that is blessed that waited and came to the 1335th day?

 

[Brother-Paul]

This verse was written in old testament times before the WAY was opened up to man so I would say that ALL spirits go back to God. The spirit of a man is dead in sin
and trespass if not born again. In going back to God I would suggest that it remains asleep until the time it is placed back in the body of the person it came out from.
The whole purpose of the earth and all that is in it is to have children of God that are like him. We must know and experience good and evil from all sides to be like
our Father, the reason for the tree in the first place. But when one is chosen to be born of the Spirit it is then that the spirit of the man becomes the new creation
which never existed before which is a spiritual son of God. Eventually through at least 2 death periods mankind will come into spiritual birth as all the spirits of men
must be made alive in order to destroy death. The kingdom of a God that is a spirit is a spiritual one, therefore all of his children must also be spiritual beings.

Brilliant brother, that is the scripture I needed to confirm what we were talking about.

Bless you

 

[Sue D.]

2 Timothy 2:19
But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Revelation 9:4
They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Talking about two different śeals -- 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel -- to go into the 7 yr of tribulation to evangelize the Jews who had been rejecting Jesus as their Promised Messiah.


And yes, all born again believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit immediately upon their salvation -- they will be gone during that 7 yrs.

 

[Brother-Paul]

2 Timothy 2:19
But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Greetings brother,

Regarding 2 Timothy 2:19
Verses 14-26 in 2 Timothy 2 is dealing with False Teachers in the ekklesia, the church.

Verse 19:
The verse is set out to show the insecurities of false teaching, compared to the stability of God's solid foundation, which is always sure, immovable, unchangeable.

The 'foundation' thus referring to the Church built on Christ, this may be referring to the ekklesia in Ephesians, or the ekklesia as a whole.

God has put 'his own seal on his church'. Some think this verse is referring to a seal on individual members of the ekklesia, the living stones, but it does seem to point towards the ekklesia as a body rather than individuals. I think.

The emphasis of the ekklesia as a whole seems to come from 'The Lord knows those who are is.'

This is a different seal to what you appear to be saying, it does not refer to sealing of the 144,000.

Blessings

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Dave M. -- during the 7 yr tribulation -- according to Rev. 7: 14 and following -- there are 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel who will be sealed vs 14 "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. " That is the group you are talking about being protected.

And then in Chapter 8 the 7th seal is opened. and there is silence in heaven for about half an hour." and after That are the series of seven angels with the seven trumpets and all the activities that happen.

Greetings

Who are the 144,000?

We know they will come from...

Revelation 7:4-8 (NKJV)
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed.
One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

So immediately we are right in saying they are Jews. But which Jews?

The traditional Jews or the Messianic Jews?

I believe it could be either, or some from each, I am not at this time aware of a scripture to confirm otherwise, each group are Jews, if their line is from any of the twelve tribes either could be the remnant.

There are currently around 350,000 Messianic Jews at present, there are around 9 million traditional Jews in Israel at this time, they include Jews of all types of backgrounds, they are not all Messianic or Traditional Jews, there are as in the Christian faith, many worldly Jews.

The 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe, which will be sealed, could therefore, I think, come from Messianic or Traditional Jews of a line back to one of the 12 tribes.

Comments welcome

 

[Sue D.]

All that I've ever understood is that the Jews, as a people group, rejected Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. Therefore, salvation was extended to the Gentile world. Which is where we are today.

Just looking at Rev.7:3 - 4 again. "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." vs 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

vs 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes , with palm branches in their hands.
"salvation beongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" and vs 14 "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation...."

My thought is that That group of 144,000 were / are Messianic Jews who are protected / sealed / from harm - in whatever form that would come from- specifically to evangelize non-accepting Jews -- giving them a second chance to accept Christ. And they are the Only group of people given a 2nd chance.

And, another thought -- I've not paid much attention to that passage because I'm not in that group of people. I'm a Gentile who Has accepted Christ.

If I were a Jew reading this Scripture -- I would definitely give it more thought.

And, I Also just remembered -- years ago there had been / maybe still is / a group called Jews for Jesus. So -- theoretically someone Could say that that group is part Of the 144,000 and therefore we were already in the 7 yrs. tribulation.
In theory only.

It's a good thing that God knows what's going on -- cause I certainly don't. Except that I'm a believer living through some weird times in history. And, looking Back -- there have been Many very hard times for Christians to exist through. Many Died very hard deaths and still Do.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greeting Sue

It could be the Messianic Jews, we can't be certain, scripture doesn't tell us clearly enough, but they should be considered I believe.

If I were a Jew reading this Scripture -- I would definitely give it more thought

But we are not Jews Sue, and at present the Jews have the same thoughts about Messianic Jews as they do Christian's.

All that I've ever understood is that the Jews, as a people group, rejected Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. Therefore, salvation was extended to the Gentile world. Which is where we are today

That is because that is what we are taught, and we are pointed to the scripture that says this.

But in the early church years including RCC years, there was a hate, that the Jews had 'killed' Jesus, although some had all were labelled as Jesus killers.

It's a good thing that God knows what's going on -- cause I certainly don't. Except that I'm a believer living through some weird times in history

It sure is good that God is in control Sue.

Bless you

 

[Bill]

To you it's about loving God. Ok... if that's true.

John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Do you love Jesus? If so, that's great.

John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

Are you doing the things Jesus says someone who loves Him would do?

John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Are you doing the things Jesus says will let you abide in His love?

1Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Christ, and Christ abides in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Does Christ abide in me?

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Did these people who were doing things in Jesus's name accept Him into their hearts?
If not, why do you think that?

Matt 25:10; "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
Matt 25:11; "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
Matt 25:12; "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'

Do you think the five foolish virgins didn't accept Jesus into their hearts?
If not, where did they get the oil?

God lives in my heart and i live in His heart .

The problem you will have with my answer is that you believe , once a person is saved ( accapts Jesus as Lord. That there will never be rejected by God .

You see everything is in play . Not only Accepting God , but what are you going to do with that acceptance now .

Maybe when you were first a Christian you were excited about everything , except , you did not fan into a flame your faith.. Being filled with the Spirit , is not a guarantee you are saved . We can learn this lesson from Judas . While being with the Apostles he cast out demons and healed people . And later Satan entered him and rejected Jesus. Judas Iscariots name was written in Heaven , but he rejected it and God rejected him.

You see Accepting Jesus is not an end all . Paul tells us to strive for heaven. To accomplice the race. To do this means to work for the goal. You can not reach the goal by standing still . ( look at me , i accepted Jesus as Lord . Now i will do nothing but wait .)

Burying your head in sand will get you nothing, As Paul says , your faith will be a gong clanging in the wind

 

[Bill]

Bill if one of those nice mormons came to your house would you welcome him into your house??

I am not afraid of Sharing Jesus with Anyone , even to my own death . . This body is only the Temple of the Holy Spirit . Being with the Trinity is prefered.

Where is my house , it is whereever the Father sends me

 

[Bill]

For Plough Boy . I just want to say i feel the Christians will always call themselves Christians . To denywho we are is to deny God.

 

[B-A-C]

The problem you will have with my answer is that you believe , once a person is saved ( accapts Jesus as Lord. That there will never be rejected by God .

Have you ever got me pegged wrong.

 

[PloughBoy]

Since it seems lately everyone is all over the broad concerning this thread and all over the place concerning what each one has unrolled their own personal "end times" scroll. I looked , I observed, I paid attention, I even put my-self in the place of a new convert, a older unlearn believer in Christ and what the Bible describe as " A GOD-Fearers". Would they be confused? Yes they would be. Now, maybe I could place some order here concerning a straight line that will give a more insight to the thread for closure, that they may have a train of thought.

If the church is “Rapture” in this generation, what are the people left still, in the “Institutionalize church”, are called?

A. From Adam to the beginning of Moses: what were the people of God called? __________________.

B. From the giving of the Law of Moses to "John the Baptist" what were the people of God called?_____________.

C. From the Baptism of "John the Baptist" to the beginning of the Ministry of Jesus, what were the people of God called?__________________________.

D. From the beginning of "Ministry of Jesus" to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, what were the people of God called?____________________.

E. From the coming of the "Holy Spirit" [day of Penetecost] that is recorded in the Book of "The Acts of the Apostles" to the conversion of Apostle Paul , what were the people of God called? _______________________.

F. To be more "precise", from the "Day of Penetecost" until the event that we call "The Rapture" what is this "body of believers" name? ____________________.

G. After "This Rapture" Occurs [following the pattern of "Pre-Tribulation"] those who are saved during this 7 years of suffering, what is this group of people of God called coming out of this turmoil?______________________.

H. After the "The Great Tribulation" [7 years] to the end of the thousand year reign [those who are saved during that event] what are they called._______________.

Take notice: these are not trick questions, they are simple. And plain. Through out our years of reading the Bible, God has shown us and called each group by a certain name, over and over again and again through out "Holy Scripture"! And there is a reason why there are different event [groups] coming out of different time periods. But we all of different events of era are the people of God. I had to say that last part for the "Skeptics".

 

[PloughBoy]

For Plough Boy . I just want to say i feel the Christians will always call themselves Christians . To denywho we are is to deny God.

I understand what you are saying.

 

[Bill]

Have you ever got me pegged wrong.

Well you are right . I made the assumption. Based on common thinking here in Talk Jesus .

And this is something i find interesting . Here at Talk Jesus , when i talk about faith alone brings us to Jesus . But faith and love takes you to the Father and Heaven . Here at Talk Jesus , some will disagree till the cows come home .

But i say the same thing to Preachers of many faiths, and they all agree with me.

So i know the thinking here is mostly singular with some exceptions

 

[Brother-Paul]

You see everything is in play . Not only Accepting God , but what are you going to do with that acceptance now .

You see Accepting Jesus is not an end all . Paul tells us to strive for heaven. To accomplice the race. To do this means to work for the goal.

Although we cannot earn or work for our salvation it is true that there are rewards to be had.

There are 5 heavenly crowns any believer can receive in heaven, they are each clearly quoted in scripture for us.

Blessings

 

[Bill]

I understand what you are saying.

I know how many feel about the pre trib rapture . But im a stick in the mud there . The explinations i here for it doesnt stand water as far as im concerned . God was never one to " run away " ftom adversity . Meaning Jesus . Infact it is in Jesus nature to stand up to it , deify it.

So what makes us think any differently with what is coming .

Lot was told to leave Sodom . Well lets think about this . Not like he has a ton of money saved in a bank and can go to the motel 6 . God says hurry up and leave . No time to gather your things . Go go go . So now he has to start all over . Ya God rescued him from certan death . But he has to start over .

Lets look at Moses . They take the wealth of Egypt with them . So what . Because God leads them in the wilderness for 40 years . In there lifetime they never spent a dime of Egypts wealth . Kinda like going from the frying pan into the fire .

And the Apostles , they left thier lives of fishermen etc to all die as martyrs except John.

So where is the example of everyone going from hardship to a day at the beach at in scripture

( hey , we are not including a day on the banks of the nile after escaping Egypt . Lol )