Is God One or is He Three?

[Christ4Ever]

I do not have time to address everyone's replies at the moment but know in Christ I hope to get to them.
Hopefully, I'll be quicker than mailing a letter.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I am currently working in order of them being sent, as you reply to mine, the further behind one may get in getting a response. lol I am currently reviewing your extensive previous response to me, @Rhema. Perhaps, given your ability to understand my thoughts, this might suffice, and I may not need to reply? My dry sense of humor!

 

[Alter2Ego]

You have forgotten the following part that I mentioned previously in post #127 and reads as follows: Quote: "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:31-33 KJV

This being a legalistic society, everything being said in these exchanges must be seen through that lens. There was nothing untold, that a son would have the same authority and represent as the father in their society, when acting on his behalf, and so would be seen legally as the father himself were acting and just as binding. So, the anger of the hearers to Jesus, for they understood Him to mean "...makest thyself God." End Quote.

Christ4Ever:

So let me see if I understand your point. You believe the rebellious Jews had it right when they equated Jesus saying "I am God's son" to mean Jesus was saying "I am God," and therefore the rebellious Jews also believed God is a Trinity due to their "legalistic society." Is that what you're saying?

Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Godhead is found in Acts 17:29, Rom 1:20, and Col 2:9, According to the Liddell Scott Lexicon, the three Greek words rendered as such are
...
I'm sure there are other aspects to these, but I agree that the invention of the word Godhead turns Truth into Fables.

Rhema:

What many Trinitarians don't want to accept is that Trinitarian Bible translators purposely inserted fabrications in certain verses so that it would appear that the Bible supports the Trinity doctrine. But those attempts always fail when one pays attention to the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters.) The King James Version was translated into English by Trinitarians. So not surprisingly, it's one of the Bibles that has the word "Godhead" within it. Take, for example, the three scriptures that you listed above.

Acts 17:29
"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." (King James Version)

The context to Acts 17:29 (surrounding verse) tells us Jesus died.

"because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:31)



Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (King James Version

The context to Romans 1:20 tells us again that Jesus died. See below.

Romans 1:4​

"but who with power was declared God’s Son according to the spirit of holiness by means of resurrection from the dead—yes, Jesus Christ our Lord."


Colossians 2:9
"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;" (King James Version)

The context to Colossians 2:9 tells us once again that Jesus died, as noted below.

Colossians 2:12​

"For you were buried with him in his baptism, and by your relationship with him you were also raised up together through your faith in the powerful work of God, who raised him up from the dead."


Notice that in all three of scriptures where Godhead was inserted, the context tells us that Jesus died. Scripture at 1 Timothy 6:16 says God cannot die.

New Living Translation
"He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen."


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

I hope you not suggesting God is NOT Triune. It IS backed by the Bible.
I know the type that only believe what's in the Bible and it something isn't "word for word" it isn't true.
There are people who argue that only the Roman homosexuality of men to boys was "bad" but other kinds of it "are ok" b/c those aren't listed in the Bible.

God is Triune before any of existed and that is something that person can't understand.

MedicBravo:

The reason why "that is something that person can't understand" is because Trinity is a man-made invention that defies logic and is not supported by scripture. None of Jesus' first century disciples ever taught Trinity nor did any of them believed it. It took the pagans in the Roman Catholic Church to adapt Christendom's Trinity in the third century AD.

Christendom's Trinity did not become official "Christian" teaching until two pagan Roman Emperors intervened and settled the dispute among the Roman Bishops in the 4th Century AD, some 300 years AFTER Jesus Christ left the earthly scene and 300 years AFTER the last book of the Bible was written. The Roman Bishops were arguing as to whether Jesus (the Son) is of the same substance as Jehovah (the Father).

In 325 AD when Roman Emperor Constantine intervened and got the Bishops (the few who showed up) to sign a document saying that Jesus is of the same substance of Jehovah the Father, the holy spirit was not even part of the equation. There was no mention of the holy spirit at the 325 meeting. So at that time, Christendom had a 2-in-1 god. It was not until 381 AD--some 50 years later--that another Roman Emperor, Theodosius, another pagan who did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, intervened and made it official that the holy spirit was equal to Jehovah (the Father) and Jesus Christ (the Son).

Alter2Ego

 

[Rhema]

a son would have the same authority and represent as the father in their society, when acting on his behalf, and so would be seen legally as the father himself were acting and just as binding. So, the anger of the hearers to Jesus, for they understood Him to mean "...makest thyself God." End Quote.

Not sure where the "Beginning Quote" is, and sorry if I missed parts of the exchange, but I found the above passage interesting, because the concept of representation as stipulated does not make the son into the actual father. Nobody would even consider that a son would actually be the person he is "legally representing." But the Trinity makes Jesus into God, actually.

Blessings,
Rhema

 

[Curtis]

Rhema:

What many Trinitarians don't want to accept is that Trinitarian Bible translators purposely inserted fabrications in certain verses so that it would appear that the Bible supports the Trinity doctrine. But those attempts always fail when one pays attention to the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters.) The King James Version was translated into English by Trinitarians. So not surprisingly, it's one of the Bibles that has the word "Godhead" within it. Take, for example, the three scriptures that you listed above.

Acts 17:29
"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." (King James Version)

The context to Acts 17:29 (surrounding verse) tells us Jesus died.

"because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:31)



Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (King James Version

The context to Romans 1:20 tells us again that Jesus died. See below.

Romans 1:4​

"but who with power was declared God’s Son according to the spirit of holiness by means of resurrection from the dead—yes, Jesus Christ our Lord."


Colossians 2:9
"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;" (King James Version)

The context to Colossians 2:9 tells us once again that Jesus died, as noted below.

Colossians 2:12​

"For you were buried with him in his baptism, and by your relationship with him you were also raised up together through your faith in the powerful work of God, who raised him up from the dead."


Notice that in all three of scriptures where Godhead was inserted, the context tells us that Jesus died. Scripture at 1 Timothy 6:16 says God cannot die.

New Living Translation
"He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen."


Alter2Ego

God is a Spirit. ( John 4:24 ) A spirit can not die. I am sure you already know that I hope. What part of Jesus died? His body died but he did not die!
The death of Jesus Christ on the cross was the final sacrifice for man's sins, which is why Jesus said, "It is finished"

 

[Rhema]

The roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are understood as different manifestations of the same God. Thus, there is no hierarchy within the Godhead since God’s actions as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are functions of the same divine being. (If we try and change this statement in any way, we no longer believe in One God.)

And... we have Modalism expressed. Easily seen by the words, "roles" and "manifestations." I'm not saying that's wrong, but I keep seeing others (not necessarily you, F&L) expressing a modalist belief and calling it trinitarian.

Lets address the elephant in the room... Being = Person. Two persons, two beings.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Enos, the son of Seth, signifies the beginnings of humanity's renewed relationship with God after the fall.

Irrelevant to the point. (But thank you for the additional thoughts.)

C4E was asserting that the designation of Jesus as the Son of God was enough for one to designate Jesus as God. If so, then Adam is also part of the Godhead, being designated as "son of God" in Luke. This was to show that one of C4E's "proofs" fails.

In the New Covenant, Jesus' genealogy not only connects Him to the historical lineage of humanity but ...

Never said Jesus wasn't human. However, there are two contradicting genealogies for Jesus, one through Solomon for those demanding a lineage for a legitimacy to the throne (Jesus is King), and the other through Nathan, for those who demanded a lineage for a legitimacy to declare Jesus as High Priest.

Rhema

 

[Curtis]

So let me see if I understand your point. You believe the rebellious Jews had it right when they equated Jesus saying "I am God's son" to mean Jesus was saying "I am God,"

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus claimed he was the "IAM" of the Old Testament.

 

[Curtis]

John 9:39 Then Jesus told him, “I entered this world to render judgment—to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind.”
John 9:40 Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, “Are you saying we’re blind?”
John 9:41 “If you were blind, you wouldn’t be guilty,” Jesus replied. “But you remain guilty because you claim you can see.

 

[Rhema]

God did not change form but simply became visible and known is a theological interpretation of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. This view aligns with the understanding that God, in His eternal and unchanging nature, did not transform into something else but rather manifested Himself in a tangible way through Jesus.

Again, this is Modalist verbiage. (Although I'll allow that it might not be intended to be so...)

At this point I seem to have lost track of the players. Alt2E (being JW) is certainly non-Trinitarian in belief. C4E is certainly non-Trinitarian (having expressed "Hierarchy" in the Godhead, which is condemned in the pure Doctrine of the Trinity). F&L seems to support the Trinity, but readily uses Modalist (i.e. Sabellian) terminology.

So I'm confused here.

Unfortunately I'm not sure if I have the time to make a complete review of the thread. The Presbyterian and Reformed traditions directly state that those not believing the Doctrine of the Trinity (the real orthodox one - the actual doctrine - not one that is modified) shall wind up in hell. Then again, my Sabbatarian brothers believe everyone will go to hell if they don't attend church on Saturday.

Has this aspect been discussed yet? (The assertion that salvation requires belief in the Trinity?)

Just wondering,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus claimed he was the "IAM" of the Old Testament.

I rather need to address this. But I realize when the "I AM" argument is made, a person has dug in his heels."

In the next chapter, the blind man also says I AM. (John 9:9) Does that make him God too? Please note that lying scribes have added in the word "he" to most all English translations.

The colloquial phrase "ego eimi" is quite often used without a clarifying ending. Hence the addition of "he." Common usages are "I'm here (now)" "it's me" or even "Hey there!" or "YO!"

The English translation "Before Abraham was, I am" is made by Trinitarians, and slanted to present a Trinitarian view on purpose. (Go figure that Trinitarians would make a proof text for their doctrine of the Trinity.)

Allowing for word order, the phrase, υμιν πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι can readily be translated as "Abraham was before, I am here (now)." This is where Jesus dismisses the claims of the Jews to be saved because of their lineage to Abraham, and where Jesus declares that salvation is now through the teachings given to him by his Father in heaven.

(Merely making a comment.)
Rhema

 

[Curtis]

In the next chapter, the blind man also says I AM. (John 9:9) Does that make him God too?

That is just plain ignorance. That man was not saying in any way he existed before Abraham.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema:

What many Trinitarians don't want to accept is that Trinitarian Bible translators purposely inserted fabrications in certain verses so that it would appear that the Bible supports the Trinity doctrine.

Ah... just saw this right after I made the exact same argument above.

That said, I strongly suggest that one uses the Kingdom Interlinear instead of the NWT.

The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Curtis]

I rather need to address this. But I realize when the "I AM" argument is made, a person has dug in his heels."

In the next chapter, the blind man also says I AM. (John 9:9) Does that make him God too? Please note that lying scribes have added in the word "he" to most all English translations.

The colloquial phrase "ego eimi" is quite often used without a clarifying ending. Hence the addition of "he." Common usages are "I'm here (now)" "it's me" or even "Hey there!" or "YO!"

The English translation "Before Abraham was, I am" is made by Trinitarians, and slanted to present a Trinitarian view on purpose. (Go figure that Trinitarians would make a proof text for their doctrine of the Trinity.)

Allowing for word order, the phrase, υμιν πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι can readily be translated as "Abraham was before, I am here (now)." This is where Jesus dismisses the claims of the Jews to be saved because of their lineage to Abraham, and where Jesus declares that salvation is now through the teachings given to him by his Father in heaven.

(Merely making a comment.)
Rhema

I do not use logical analytical analyses to understand God's word. The Holy Spirit does not use or teach using the wisdom of this world to give understanding.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Rhema]

That is just plain ignorance. That man was not saying in any way he existed before Abraham.

EXACTLY.... and neither was Jesus.

If that was the point Jesus was trying to make, he would have clearly said, "I lived before Abraham" or "I was alive even before Abraham," or "I existed before Abraham" but he didn't. He didn't say that. The Greek phrase ego eimi is never used anywhere in the Greek corpus to convey that meaning, SO ..., why would Jesus say something to the Jews, (or anyone for that matter) where one needs to twist the language in order to understand what is meant ??

Lies come from twisting the language, and translators and scribes lie.

"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NKJV)​

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I do not use logical analytical analyses to understand God's word.

Yes, I agree with you that your understanding of God's message is not logical or analytical.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Alter2Ego]

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Curtis:

The verse at Hebrews 1:8 is with reference to Jehovah the Father. You are ignoring the rest of the verses (the context) and cherry-picking words that appear to support your belief. For example, at Hebrews 1:6, you bolded the words ""let all the angels of God worship him" and ignored the red flag that should have alerted you that you are reading from a Trinitarian Bible translation. Notice the context (surrounding words) at Hebrews 1:6. There, it says:

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

Jesus was begotten.


DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN":
" brought into existence by or as if by a parent)"

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Since Jesus is a created being aka begotten -- meaning he has not always existed with Jehovah the Father, that raises a red flag about the portion of the same verse that says he should be worshipped. Notice the same verse from other Bible translations.


Young's Literal Translation
"and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'"


Literal Emphasis Translation
"And again, when He brings in His first-born into the inhabited earth, He says, “And let all the angels of God do reverence to Him.”"


Douay-Rheims Bible
"And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him."

Hebrews 1:6​

"But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”



Only Jehovah should be worshipped. Jesus said that himself when Satan was tempting him.


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Then Yeshua said to him, “Depart Satan, for it is written: 'You shall worship THE LORD JEHOVAH your God and him alone shall you serve.' “ (Matthew 4:10)


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Worshiping only Jehovah, the Father, and excluding Jesus, God's Son, from worship raises important theological and scriptural considerations. It is crucial to recognize the inseparable unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the Godhead. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the manifestation of God in flesh. In John 1:1,14, it is written, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." This clearly identifies Jesus as the Word who is God made flesh. Additionally, in John 14:9, Jesus tells Philip, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father," indicating that Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. Worshiping Jesus is not a separate act from worshiping the Father; rather, it is acknowledging and honoring God's full revelation in Jesus Christ. Philippians 2:9-11 emphasizes that "God has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow... and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Worshiping Jesus glorifies the Father, and through Jesus, we have access to the fullness of God. Therefore, as believers, it is vital to embrace and worship Jesus, recognizing His divine identity and role in our salvation.

First and the Last:

John 1:1 has three independent clauses, as follows:

(1) In the beginning was the Word,
(2) and the word was with God,
(3) and the word was God.


Everything you posted above was debunked by the first clause where it says the Word had a beginning. According to Christendom's Trinity, the Word/Jesus Christ/the son is supposed to have always existed along with Jehovah the Father. John 1:1 contradicts that belief and exposes the third clause "and the word was God" as a deliberate manipulation of scripture. Below is how other Bibles correctly rendered that third clause.


(1) Reijnier Rooleeuw, 1694, "and the Word was a god"

(2) Harwood, 1768, "and was himself a divine person"

(3) Newcome, 1808, "and the word was a god"

(4) Belsham N.T. 1809 "the Word was a god"

(5) Leicester Ambrose, 1879, "And the logos was a god"

(6) Thompson, 1829, "the Logos was a god"


The trinitarian translators deliberately capitalized the word "god" in order to promote the Trinity doctrine. They did that despite the fact the first clause within John 1:1 says the Word (Jesus) had a beginning. Therefore, the Word could not possibly be in a trinity with Jehovah the father. As all reading this thread can see, at least six Bibles correctly used lower case "god."


Alter2Ego

 

[B-A-C]

(1) Reijnier Rooleeuw, 1694, "and the Word was a god"

(2) Harwood, 1768, "and was himself a divine person"

(3) Newcome, 1808, "and the word was a god"

(4) Belsham N.T. 1809 "the Word was a god"

(5) Leicester Ambrose, 1879, "And the logos was a god"

(6) Thompson, 1829, "the Logos was a god"

But None of the original Greek manuscripts add "a" here. They simply say God.

But Christians can only worship one God in any case. Not a god, and another god, and another god.

Exod 20:3; "You shall have no other gods before Me.
Exod 20:4; "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exod 20:5; "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Matt 4:10; Then Jesus *said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

Matt 2:11; After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
Matt 14:33; And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"
Matt 28:9; And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Heb 1:6; And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

Many people in the Bible worshiped Jesus, even the angels.

Rev 14:7; and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."