Is God One or is He Three?

[Christ4Ever]

Christ4Ever:

So let me see if I understand your point. You believe the rebellious Jews had it right when they equated Jesus saying "I am God's son" to mean Jesus was saying "I am God," and therefore the rebellious Jews also believed God is a Trinity due to their "legalistic society." Is that what you're saying?

Alter2Ego

I can answer this one quick, so I'll jump your post to the front of the line.
My answer to you is yes, and no. Like the Jews of this day, except for those who have come to believe in Yeshua as the Messiah, or Messianic Jews, they believe Jesus was saying he was God, but of course they did not believe it to be true, meaning no belief in the Trinity as well.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Alter2Ego]

Sorry I dont use the "rules" of grammer, I use what is called the Holy Spirit and his anointing.


(AMPC) Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM. [Exo_3:14]
(AMPC+) Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM. [Exo_3:14]
(ASV) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.
(BBE) Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am.
(CEV) Jesus answered, "I tell you for certain that even before Abraham was, I was, and I am."
(CJB) Yeshua said to them, "Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!"
(Darby) Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(EMTV) Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
(ERV) Jesus answered, "The fact is, before Abraham was born, I AM."
(ESV) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
(ESV+) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, R1I am.”
(Geneva) Iesus sayd vnto them, Verely, verely I say vnto you, before Abraham was, I am.
(GNB) "I am telling you the truth," Jesus replied. "Before Abraham was born, 'I Am'."
(GW) Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am."
(ISV) Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, before there was an Abraham, I AM!"
(Moffatt NT) "Truly, truly I tell you," said Jesus, "I have existed before Abraham was born."
(JUB) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
(KJV) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(KJV+) JesusG2424 saidG2036 unto them,G846 Verily,G281 verily,G281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 BeforeG4250 AbrahamG11 was,G1096 IG1473 am.G1510
(LEB) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!"
(LITV) Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
(NAS77) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
(NASB) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
(NASB+) JesusG2424 saidG3004 to them, "TrulyG281, trulyG281, I sayG3004 to you, beforeG4250 AbrahamG11 N1was bornG1096, R1I amG1510."
(NET) Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!”
(NET.) Jesus said to them, "I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!"
(NIrV) "What I'm about to tell you is true," Jesus answered. "Before Abraham was born, I am!"
(NIV) "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
(NIV84) "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
(NKJV) Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
(NLT) Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I AM!”
(Remedy) “I tell you the truth,” Jesus said, “before Abraham was even born, I Am! I Am he who created all things. I Am he who has always been.”
(RV) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(TCENT) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
(TNIV) "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
(TPT) Jesus said to them, “I give you this eternal truth: I have existed long before Abraham was born, for I AM!”
(UASV+) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.N3
(WEB) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM. ”
(WEBA) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM. ”
(Webster) Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(Weymouth) "In most solemn truth," answered Jesus, "I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am."
(Williams) Then Jesus said to them, "I most solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born."
(YLT) Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming—I am;'

Curtis:

Telling me that the holy spirit anointed you so that you could cherry-pick verses and ignore context is supposed to prove what? You are relying on the mistranslation of John 8:58, because like every Trinitarian that I've ever debated, you are grasping at straws. Below is your quotation of John 8:58.

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."


None of the Trinitarian translations that you're relying on, some of which you quotated above, can help you because "I am" is not supposed to be in that verse. I already presented a source that clearly stated the Trinitarian translators purposely put "I am" in that verse of scripture and violated the rules of grammar in the process. Below, as a reminder, is what that source said.

"However, the Greek to English grammatically correct rendering should be “… before Abraham came to be I have been in existence.”

How Should John 8:58 Be Translated? - Updated American Standard Version

John 8:58 is one of the most hotly debated verses in the Bible, so our investigation is likely to offend someone.

uasvbible.org

Jesus used the same expression "I am" all over the place in the very same book of John and did not violate the rules of grammar, as follows:

I am the Bread of Life (John 6:35): Jesus provides spiritual nourishment.

I am the Light of the World (John 8:12): Jesus brings illumination and truth.

I am the Gate (John 10:7): Jesus is the way to salvation.

I am the Good Shepherd (John 10:11, 14): Jesus cares for His followers.

I am the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25): Jesus offers eternal life.

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6): Jesus is the path to God.

I am the True Vine (John 15:1): Jesus symbolizes spiritual connection and growth123.


Was Jesus also saying he is God in the scriptures I quoted above, all of which are within the same book of John? Of course not. But out of the blue, only at John 8:58, the rules of grammar miraculous change and we have him saying "Before Abraham was, I am." As Rhema already pointed out to you, the same expression "I am" was used by a blind man within the very same book of John, at chapter 9.

Berean Standard Bible
"[8] At this, his neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging began to ask, “Isn’t this the man who used to sit and beg?” [9] Some claimed that he was, but others said, “No, he just looks like him.” But the man kept saying, “I am the one.” (John 9:8-9)


Not only that, the context to John 8:58 says Jesus was a created being

King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Definition of begotten:

": brought into existence by or as if by a parent"

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Jesus was brought into existence, which means he did not always exist. Christendom's trinity says Jesus has always existed. The word "begotten" which appears throughout the NT with reference to Jesus effectively debunks the Trinitarian claim.


Alter2Ego

 

[First and the Last]

So let me see if I understand your point. You believe the rebellious Jews had it right when they equated Jesus saying "I am God's son" to mean Jesus was saying "I am God,

Jesus Christ is Fully God and Fully Man, therefore Jesus is both God (Fully God) and God's Son (Fully Man) that is why "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16

 

[Rhema]

[*] The literal rendering is (Greek, egoʹ eimiʹ) “I am.” However, the Greek to English grammatically correct rendering should be “… before Abraham came to be I have been in existence.”

Sorry, but K. L. McKay is wrong.

It means I am. The blind guy in the next chapter wasn't saying "I have been in existence."

What all these supposed scholars ought to be doing is looking at how "ego eimi" is used in both the written corpus and in colloquial usage.

Who's the boss? ( ego eimi - I'm the boss now.)

Jesus was saying "I'm the guy, not Abraham."

Rhema

 

[Alter2Ego]

It does not defy scripture. B/c humans can't understand God on a significant level then we find the most accurate words and group things to better understand him.

God defies logic. As the Creator He can, has, and does defy all laws of Creation that we are affected by.

MedicBravo:

Whenever humans invent doctrines that are not supported by scripture, they come up with the same lame excuse that you're using above.

Certainly, we can't understand everything about Jehovah, but the fact remains there are no scriptures in the Bible that says he is a trinity.

Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Jesus Christ is Fully God and Fully Man, therefore Jesus is both God (Fully God) and God's Son (Fully Man) that is why "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16

First and the Last:

You are giving me wash, rinse, and repeat while you continue to dance around the following scriptures that I've quoted to you at least three different times.

Numbers 23:19​

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19 -- King James Version)


Jesus' disciples of the First Century and many other people saw Jesus face to face. Jehovah told Moses at Exodus 33:20: "You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live." If Jesus were God manifest in the flesh, everyone that saw his face would have died.


New Living Translation
"{13} And I charge you before God, who gives life to all, and before Christ Jesus, who gave a good testimony before Pontius Pilate, {14} that you obey this command without wavering. Then no one can find fault with you from now until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. {15} For, At just the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God, the King of all kings and Lord of all lords. {16} He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:13-16)


Jesus literally died. Scripture says God cannot die.


Alter2Ego

 

[First and the Last]

And... we have Modalism expressed. Easily seen by the words, "roles" and "manifestations." I'm not saying that's wrong, but I keep seeing others (not necessarily you, F&L) expressing a modalist belief and calling it trinitarian.

Lets address the elephant in the room... Being = Person. Two persons, two beings.

Rhema

I believe that God is a single divine entity who can act in all three roles—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—simultaneously. Unlike early modalism, which viewed these roles as successive manifestations of God over time, God operates in these roles concurrently. This perspective maintains that while God manifests in different ways, such as being the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit in ongoing ministry, He is always one unified being. This belief upholds the notion that Jesus Christ is the full and complete manifestation of the one God, and that God's presence and work encompass all three roles at the same time rather than in separate, distinct phases.

 

[Rhema]

I quote from many Bible translations, but the New World Translation--in my experience--the most accurate.

Kindly, your experience is too limited, and I'm not sure you have the qualifications to make that claim of accuracy.

Compare with your own Kingdom Interlinear. (I have my own copy.)

Once you learn some of the basic rudiments of first century Greek, you'll know better.

Not only that, the NWT has restored God's personal name, Jehovah,

I know that is very important to you, but... historically, (as in centuries ago) it had been considered too arrogant to actually speak or use "God's personal name."

So it's not like there was some horrible secret conspiracy. It feels a bit like those who think they're better than others because they use the name "Yeshua" instead of "Jesus."

Blessings,
Rhema

 

[Alter2Ego]

Sorry, but K. L. McKay is wrong.

It means I am. The blind guy in the next chapter wasn't saying "I have been in existence."

What all these supposed scholars ought to be doing is looking at how "ego eimi" is used in both the written corpus and in colloquial usage.

Who's the boss? ( ego eimi - I'm the boss now.)

Jesus was saying "I'm the guy, not Abraham."

Rhema

Rhema:

The expression "I am" cannot be used at John 8:58 because it violates the rules of grammar. So the source is correct by stating how the sentence should appear when rendered in English.

Alter2Ego

 

[First and the Last]

God did not change form but simply became visible and known is a theological interpretation of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. This view aligns with the understanding that God, in His eternal and unchanging nature, did not transform into something else but rather manifested Himself in a tangible way through Jesus

Again, this is Modalist verbiage. (Although I'll allow that it might not be intended to be so...)

Instead of resorting to terminology, why don't you tell me where my statement is wrong?

 

[Rhema]

Unlike early modalism, which viewed these roles as successive manifestations of God over time, God operates in these roles concurrently.

Sigh... I gotta fix that dang Wikipedia page again?



(Go on, tell me that wasn't your source....)

Rhema

F&L... you're a Modalist. Get a real book on the subject.
The internet is the destruction of all knowledge (and now pronunciation).


So okay, you might not like me stating that you're a Modalist. Can you at least give a simple yes or no to a simple question. Is God manifest in three distinct PERSONS that are separate and apart from one another? The way that a common man would understand the word PERSON? If there's any "no" in there at all, you're not a Trinitarian.

 

[First and the Last]

EXACTLY.... and neither was Jesus.

If that was the point Jesus was trying to make, he would have clearly said, "I lived before Abraham" or "I was alive even before Abraham," or "I existed before Abraham" but he didn't. He didn't say that. The Greek phrase ego eimi is never used anywhere in the Greek corpus to convey that meaning, SO ..., why would Jesus say something to the Jews, (or anyone for that matter) where one needs to twist the language in order to understand what is meant ??

Lies come from twisting the language, and translators and scribes lie.

"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NKJV)​

Rhema

The phrase "I AM" holds profound significance in biblical theology, revealing key aspects of God's nature and identity. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew term "Ehyeh" (אֶהְיֶה), translated as "I Am" or "I Will Be," is used when God reveals Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:14. This name signifies God's self-existence and eternal, unchanging nature, emphasizing that He is the source of all being and is not bound by time or external factors. It can be understood as "I exist" in the sense that God’s existence is absolute and independent of everything else. In the New Testament, Jesus uses the Greek equivalent, "Ego Eimi," in statements like John 8:58, where He says, “Before Abraham was, I am.” This declaration aligns Jesus with the divine name revealed to Moses, asserting His eternal existence and divinity. The use of "I AM" by Jesus thus affirms His identity as God and underscores His divine authority and preexistence. For believers, this phrase assures us of God’s unchanging nature and faithfulness, offering comfort and confidence in His eternal presence and promises. Recognizing Jesus' use of "I AM" deepens our understanding of His role in the Godhead, reinforcing His identity as both fully God and fully man, which is central to the Christian faith.

 

[Alter2Ego]

The fun question to ask is, why would they do that?


And there you have it.

The Roman Emperors were seen by the populace as God (or a god ... whatever). So how could a God worship a man ... or become a disciple of a "mere" man?

When Constantine alarmingly discovered that about half of his army were Christians, he was faced with a dilemma. One that continued through history until the American Revolution - Who had greater power? The Pope or the King?

Now the Bishops knew that it would be of great benefit to the church were Constantine to become Christian. And when Constantine finally said, "GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER," they had the opportunity to elevate Jesus to be God (in essence creating this doctrine of the Trinity) and everybody was happy.

Rhema

BTW, when Paul wrote "the god of this world" he was speaking about the Roman Emperor.

Rhema:

You are partially correct in what you've stated above. But another reason why the Roman Emperors intervened, particularly Constantine, was because the bickering among the Catholic Bishops (over whether or not God and Jesus were of the same substance) was weakening the empire. So these two Roman emperors--pagans who did not worship the Abrahamic God at the time--intervened for political reasons.

Remember, now, these were Roman Bishops, from the same Roman empire that executed Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic Church then promoted this doctrine of a 3-in-1 god.

Then the Protestants broke away from the Catholics. The problem is, they broke away from the Catholics but took some of the Catholic dogma with them, including the Trinity and literal hellfire torment, neither of which are supported by scripture.

Alter2Ego

 

[Rhema]

Sorry I dont use the "rules" of grammer (sic), I use what is called the Holy Spirit and his anointing.

(Where's the face palm emoji when ya need it?)

Curtis,
ALL your translators in all those bibles you quoted USE the rules of grammar in order to make your translations. Hence YOU use the rules of grammar, if only by proxy. And if all your translators are Trinitarian, you can expect the translation to be twisted in that direction. But I understand that there are many people who need to feel special somehow.

Do you think that translations are delivered by stork (sent by God)?

If you "use the Holy Spirit and his anointing" why do you even NEED a Bible then? Why do you rely upon other translators?

So which of your translations were made by the Holy Spirit and his anointing? And if all of them did, why do they differ at all?

Then again, maybe you claim special status in that all the things you believe are always totally correct because of your Holy Spirit. (It feels that way.) So truly, you've never changed your mind? God never came to you and said, "Dude, your thinking on this is wrong." ?

Oh my,
Rhema

 

[Curtis]

Curtis:

Telling me that the holy spirit anointed you so that you could cherry-pick verses and ignore context is supposed to prove what? You are relying on the mistranslation of John 8:58, because like every Trinitarian that I've ever debated, you are grasping at straws. Below is your quotation of John 8:58.

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."


None of the Trinitarian translations that you're relying on, some of which you quotated above, can help you because "I am" is not supposed to be in that verse. I already presented a source that clearly stated the Trinitarian translators purposely put "I am" in that verse of scripture and violated the rules of grammar in the process. Below, as a reminder, is what that source said.

"However, the Greek to English grammatically correct rendering should be “… before Abraham came to be I have been in existence.”

How Should John 8:58 Be Translated? - Updated American Standard Version

John 8:58 is one of the most hotly debated verses in the Bible, so our investigation is likely to offend someone.

uasvbible.org

Jesus used the same expression "I am" all over the place in the very same book of John and did not violate the rules of grammar, as follows:

I am the Bread of Life (John 6:35): Jesus provides spiritual nourishment.

I am the Light of the World (John 8:12): Jesus brings illumination and truth.

I am the Gate (John 10:7): Jesus is the way to salvation.

I am the Good Shepherd (John 10:11, 14): Jesus cares for His followers.

I am the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25): Jesus offers eternal life.

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6): Jesus is the path to God.

I am the True Vine (John 15:1): Jesus symbolizes spiritual connection and growth123.


Was Jesus also saying he is God in the scriptures I quoted above, all of which are within the same book of John? Of course not. But out of the blue, only at John 8:58, the rules of grammar miraculous change and we have him saying "Before Abraham was, I am." As Rhema already pointed out to you, the same expression "I am" was used by a blind man within the very same book of John, at chapter 9.

Berean Standard Bible
"[8] At this, his neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging began to ask, “Isn’t this the man who used to sit and beg?” [9] Some claimed that he was, but others said, “No, he just looks like him.” But the man kept saying, “I am the one.” (John 9:8-9)


Not only that, the context to John 8:58 says Jesus was a created being

King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Definition of begotten:

": brought into existence by or as if by a parent"

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Jesus was brought into existence, which means he did not always exist. Christendom's trinity says Jesus has always existed. The word "begotten" which appears throughout the NT with reference to Jesus effectively debunks the Trinitarian claim.


Alter2Ego

Amazing you can not understand scripture which is no surprise as anyone who does not believe that Jesus is God (the IAM) does not know him and if you do not know him how can you know anything he has said?

 

[Alter2Ego]

This is interesting to me when Christ said "I am" to the Pharisees. Long time ago I read comments from various scholars.
....
But He equated Himself to the Almighty God of the Old Testament by saying, "I am."

Charlie24:

Jesus would never have equated himself to the Almighty because he made it clear that he was created by the Almighty God, Jehovah.

Proverbs 8:22​

Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.


Alter2Ego

 

[Rhema]

The Trinity is another way of explaining Who and What God is.

How does anything that is illogical "EXPLAIN" anything?
Things that make no sense don't explain anything at all.
It's just worshiping mystical nonsense.
(Remember, you said it doesn't make sense.)

Rhema

 

[Curtis]

If you "use the Holy Spirit and his anointing" why do you even NEED a Bible then? Why do you rely upon other translators?

Now that is a dumb question, and you know it so why even ask it?

 

[Curtis]

Charlie24:

Jesus would never have equated himself to the Almighty because he made it clear that he was created by the Almighty God, Jehovah.

Proverbs 8:22​

Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.


Alter2Ego

You need to take all of your JW propaganda and burn it in a fireplace and then find a Church that is teaching the Gospel.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Who went to paradise after Jesus' death, and what about the thief?

Curtis:

That scripture will do you no good because Jesus wasn't even dead when he used the expression "today." He was simply making a promise to the thief who was crucified along with him . The promise was for a future blessing of life in paradise.


Alter2Ego