Is God One or is He Three?

[Alter2Ego]

Philippians 2:6-7, "Who, being in the form of God (The Self Expressive Eternal Word John 1:1), thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant (Son, Word made flesh John 1:14), and was made in the likeness of men:"

First and the Last:

John 1:14 does not help your argument. You are quoting from a Trinitarian Bible translation--most likely the King James Version. And even then, the context (surrounding words and verses) makes it clear that Jesus is not in a trinity with God because John 1:1 at the very first clause already stated that the Word (Jesus) had a beginning. Below are several Bible translations of the same verse at Philippians 2:6.


Majority Standard Bible
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,


New American Bible
Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.


English Standard Version
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,


Berean Standard Bible
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,


Berean Literal Bible
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

God did not change form but simply became visible and known is a theological interpretation of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. This view aligns with the understanding that God, in His eternal and unchanging nature, did not transform into something else but rather manifested Himself in a tangible way through Jesus. According to John 1:14, "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us," indicating that the eternal Word, which was with God and was God, took on human flesh. This does not imply a change in God's essence but a revelation of His presence in a way that humans could perceive and relate to. Colossians 2:9 supports this by stating, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form," showing that Jesus fully embodied God without altering the divine nature. Thus, the incarnation can be understood as God making Himself visible and knowable in the person of Jesus Christ, without changing His fundamental nature. This interpretation preserves the continuity of God's unchanging essence while affirming the mystery of the incarnation.

First and the Last:

Repeating yourself will not make you suddenly become correct. I previously showed you scripture that you have chosen to ignore because you can't give up your personal philosophy aka Trinity. See below the points I previously raised when you claimed Jesus is the fleshly version of God.

Numbers 23:19​

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19 -- King James Version)


Jesus' disciples of the First Century and many other people saw Jesus face to face. Jehovah told Moses at Exodus 33:20: "You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live." If Jesus were God manifest in the flesh, everyone that saw his face would have died.


New Living Translation
"{13} And I charge you before God, who gives life to all, and before Christ Jesus, who gave a good testimony before Pontius Pilate, {14} that you obey this command without wavering. Then no one can find fault with you from now until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. {15} For, At just the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God, the King of all kings and Lord of all lords. {16} He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:13-16)


Jesus literally died. Scripture says God cannot die.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

God is a Spirit. ( John 4:24 ) A spirit can not die. I am sure you already know that I hope. What part of Jesus died? His body died but he did not die!
The death of Jesus Christ on the cross was the final sacrifice for man's sins, which is why Jesus said, "It is finished"

Curtis:

Since you claim Jesus' body died but Jesus himself did not die, please find scripture to support that claim. Present us with no more than three at a time.


The forum is waiting.



Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus claimed he was the "IAM" of the Old Testament.

Curtis:

No, he did not. You are reading from a Trinitarian Bible where the translators deliberately violated the rules of grammar so that they could change the sentence. What Jesus was saying is that he has existed before Abraham. Notice that same verse of scripture from another Bible.

John 8:58​

Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”


Notice below what was stated at another website regarding the manipulation of John 8:58 and the fact that it was purposely mistranslated by violating the rules of grammar:

[*] The literal rendering is (Greek, egoʹ eimiʹ) “I am.” However, the Greek to English grammatically correct rendering should be “… before Abraham came to be I have been in existence.”

How Should John 8:58 Be Translated? - Updated American Standard Version

John 8:58 is one of the most hotly debated verses in the Bible, so our investigation is likely to offend someone.

uasvbible.org

Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Ah... just saw this right after I made the exact same argument above.

That said, I strongly suggest that one uses the Kingdom Interlinear instead of the NWT.

The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kindly,
Rhema

Rhema:

I quote from many Bible translations, but the New World Translation--in my experience--the most accurate. Not only that, the NWT has restored God's personal name, Jehovah, to the hundreds of places where it appeared in the original writings. Other Bibles have removed the Divine name and replaced it with the titles God and Lord God, usually in all caps.

Alter2Ego

 

[Curtis]

Curtis:

No, he did not. You are reading from a Trinitarian Bible where the translators deliberately violated the rules of grammar so that they could change the sentence. What Jesus was saying is that he has existed before Abraham. Notice that same verse of scripture from another Bible.

John 8:58​

Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”


Notice below what was stated at another website regarding the manipulation of John 8:58 and the fact that it was purposely mistranslated by violating the rules of grammar:

[*] The literal rendering is (Greek, egoʹ eimiʹ) “I am.” However, the Greek to English grammatically correct rendering should be “… before Abraham came to be I have been in existence.”

How Should John 8:58 Be Translated? - Updated American Standard Version

John 8:58 is one of the most hotly debated verses in the Bible, so our investigation is likely to offend someone.

uasvbible.org

Alter2Ego

Sorry I dont use the "rules" of grammer, I use what is called the Holy Spirit and his anointing.


(AMPC) Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM. [Exo_3:14]
(AMPC+) Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM. [Exo_3:14]
(ASV) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.
(BBE) Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am.
(CEV) Jesus answered, "I tell you for certain that even before Abraham was, I was, and I am."
(CJB) Yeshua said to them, "Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!"
(Darby) Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(EMTV) Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
(ERV) Jesus answered, "The fact is, before Abraham was born, I AM."
(ESV) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
(ESV+) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, R1I am.”
(Geneva) Iesus sayd vnto them, Verely, verely I say vnto you, before Abraham was, I am.
(GNB) "I am telling you the truth," Jesus replied. "Before Abraham was born, 'I Am'."
(GW) Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am."
(ISV) Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, before there was an Abraham, I AM!"
(Moffatt NT) "Truly, truly I tell you," said Jesus, "I have existed before Abraham was born."
(JUB) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
(KJV) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(KJV+) JesusG2424 saidG2036 unto them,G846 Verily,G281 verily,G281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 BeforeG4250 AbrahamG11 was,G1096 IG1473 am.G1510
(LEB) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!"
(LITV) Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
(NAS77) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
(NASB) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
(NASB+) JesusG2424 saidG3004 to them, "TrulyG281, trulyG281, I sayG3004 to you, beforeG4250 AbrahamG11 N1was bornG1096, R1I amG1510."
(NET) Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!”
(NET.) Jesus said to them, "I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!"
(NIrV) "What I'm about to tell you is true," Jesus answered. "Before Abraham was born, I am!"
(NIV) "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
(NIV84) "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
(NKJV) Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
(NLT) Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I AM!”
(Remedy) “I tell you the truth,” Jesus said, “before Abraham was even born, I Am! I Am he who created all things. I Am he who has always been.”
(RV) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(TCENT) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
(TNIV) "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
(TPT) Jesus said to them, “I give you this eternal truth: I have existed long before Abraham was born, for I AM!”
(UASV+) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.N3
(WEB) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM. ”
(WEBA) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM. ”
(Webster) Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(Weymouth) "In most solemn truth," answered Jesus, "I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am."
(Williams) Then Jesus said to them, "I most solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born."
(YLT) Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming—I am;'

 

[MedicBravo]

MedicBravo:

The reason why "that is something that person can't understand" is because Trinity is a man-made invention that defies logic and is not supported by scripture. None of Jesus' first century disciples ever taught Trinity nor did any of them believed it. It took the pagans in the Roman Catholic Church to adapt Christendom's Trinity in the third century AD.

Christendom's Trinity did not become official "Christian" teaching until two pagan Roman Emperors intervened and settled the dispute among the Roman Bishops in the 4th Century AD, some 300 years AFTER Jesus Christ left the earthly scene and 300 years AFTER the last book of the Bible was written. The Roman Bishops were arguing as to whether Jesus (the Son) is of the same substance as Jehovah (the Father).

In 325 AD when Roman Emperor Constantine intervened and got the Bishops (the few who showed up) to sign a document saying that Jesus is of the same substance of Jehovah the Father, the holy spirit was not even part of the equation. There was no mention of the holy spirit at the 325 meeting. So at that time, Christendom had a 2-in-1 god. It was not until 381 AD--some 50 years later--that another Roman Emperor, Theodosius, another pagan who did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, intervened and made it official that the holy spirit was equal to Jehovah (the Father) and Jesus Christ (the Son).

Alter2Ego

It does not defy scripture. B/c humans can't understand God on a significant level then we find the most accurate words and group things to better understand him.

God defies logic. As the Creator He can, has, and does defy all laws of Creation that we are affected by.

The Holy Spirit is mentioned many times in the Old Testament before Jesus came.

What Does the Bible Say About Holy Spirit In The Old Testament?

Bible verses about Holy Spirit In The Old Testament

www.openbible.info

A core fact is the God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit have existed before there was Time, Space, or Matter. You're not supposed to understand that on a large scale.

"In 325 AD when Roman Emperor Constantine intervened and got the Bishops (the few who showed up) to sign a document saying that Jesus is of the same substance of Jehovah the Father, the holy spirit was not even part of the equation." - So who was right here? God or finite, flawed, sinful humans in the church and him? Pretty sure it's God.

Just b/c humans make something official it doesn't change God or what is.

The Trinity is another way of explaining Who and What God is.

 

[Curtis]

John 8:58​

Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

How many years do you think it had been if Jesus said "he had existed before Abraham"

 

[Curtis]

Curtis:

Since you claim Jesus' body died but Jesus himself did not die, please find scripture to support that claim. Present us with no more than three at a time.


The forum is waiting.



Alter2Ego

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Who went to paradise after Jesus' death, and what about the thief?

 

[Alter2Ego]

But None of the original Greek manuscripts add "a" here. They simply say God.

But Christians can only worship one God in any case. Not a god, and another god, and another god.

B-A-C:

The correct translation into English for the third clause of John 1:1 is "and the word was a god" with the word "god" being in lower case throughout, based upon the context. Why so? Because John 1:1 started out by telling the reader that the Word/Jesus had a beginning. Therefore, since Jesus/the Word had a beginning, he could not also be in a trinity with Almighty God Jehovah who does not have a beginning.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Have you not known and have you not heard, that God to eternity is LORD JEHOVAH, who created the ends of The Earth? He is not weary and is not fatigued by labor, and there is no searching of his understanding! (Isaiah 40:28)


What most people don't realize is that the original Greek writings did not have upper and lower case. Everything was written in all caps and without punctuation. The people who translated the Bible to English knew that English speakers put more importance or more emphasis on words that are capitalized, and so the trinitarian translators used that knowledge to capitalize words that should not have been capitalized during translation to English.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Matt 4:10; Then Jesus *said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

B-A-C:

You're suggesting that Satan wanted God to worship him by using the above temptation as your argument for Trinity. Well, guess what? You just shot yourself in the foot with that.

Satan made it clear that he did not believe Jesus was in a trinity with Jehovah the father, as follows:

Matthew 4:8​

Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

Matthew 4:9​

And he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”

Matthew 4:10​

Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”


Remember, Satan the Devil was once one of God's angels in heaven, so he would certainly know if Jesus was the same God as Jehovah.


QUESTION TO B-A-C:
What sense would it make for Satan to ask God who created everything and owned everything to worship Satan so that Satan would reward God with God's own possessions?


I will address the remainder of your post at another time.

Matt 2:11; After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
Matt 14:33; And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"
Matt 28:9; And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Heb 1:6; And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

Many people in the Bible worshiped Jesus, even the angels.

Rev 14:7; and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."

 

[Charlie24]

Curtis:

No, he did not. You are reading from a Trinitarian Bible where the translators deliberately violated the rules of grammar so that they could change the sentence. What Jesus was saying is that he has existed before Abraham. Notice that same verse of scripture from another Bible.

John 8:58​

Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”


Notice below what was stated at another website regarding the manipulation of John 8:58 and the fact that it was purposely mistranslated by violating the rules of grammar:

[*] The literal rendering is (Greek, egoʹ eimiʹ) “I am.” However, the Greek to English grammatically correct rendering should be “… before Abraham came to be I have been in existence.”

How Should John 8:58 Be Translated? - Updated American Standard Version

John 8:58 is one of the most hotly debated verses in the Bible, so our investigation is likely to offend someone.

uasvbible.org

Alter2Ego

This is interesting to me when Christ said "I am" to the Pharisees. Long time ago I read comments from various scholars.

Most said that if Christ had meant He merely existed before Abraham, He would have said, 'before Abraham, I was.

But He equated Himself to the Almighty God of the Old Testament by saying, "I am."

"Was" and "Am" are two completely different words with different meanings.

Like so many things in Scripture it's not cast in concrete, but I lean toward Christ meaning He is the "I Am" of the Old Testament because that's what Isaiah called Him, The Almighty God.

 

[Curtis]

Since Jesus is a created being aka begotten -

JW garbage on full display. Yea, right the creator created himself.


2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Curtis]

This is interesting to me when Christ said "I am" to the Pharisees. Long time ago I read comments from various scholars.

Most said that if Christ had meant He merely existed before Abraham, He would have said, 'before Abraham, I was.

But He equated Himself to the Almighty God of the Old Testament by saying, "I am."

"Was" and "Am" are two completely different words with different meanings.

Like so many things in Scripture it's not cast in concrete, but I lean toward Christ meaning He is the "I Am" of the Old Testament because that's what Isaiah called Him, The Almighty God.

I had said that in a previous post. What I wanted this person to see is if Jesus existed before Abraham then Jesus would have be 500-1000 years old and that is very wrong. Yes Jesus claimed to be the great IAM who spoke to Moses.

 

[Charlie24]

I had said that in a previous post. What I wanted this person to see is if Jesus existed before Abraham then Jesus would have be 500-1000 years old and that is very wrong. Yes claimed to be the great IAM who spoke to Moses.

I have said for many years now, the One who said "let there be light" in Genesis, is the same One who said, "I am the light of the world" in the Gospels.

 

[Rhema]

Jesus claimed he was the "IAM" of the Old Testament.

I wanted to take this a bit further, in that there is no "I AM" of the Old Testament.

The dependence upon translation to carry comprehensive meaning creates a problem in that many doctrines are based upon Linguistic Artifacts - inferences that are made in the target language that just do not exist in the originals. (Ephesians 6:17 is a perfect example.) And this "I AM" falls into this category. God never said "I AM" (even in the Hebrew).

While it would be nice to have had the original New Testament texts written in Hebrew, they weren't. However, there is an OT that is written in Greek, and y'all know (or should) about the Septuagint, that nearly all of the quotes from the OT found in the NT are word for word from the Septuagint. So we can make a comparison to what God said, and what Jesus said.

So is "ego eimi" written in the Septuagint? Actually no. What we find written in Exodus 3:14 is "εγω ειμι ο ων"

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.​

(Exodus 3:14 KJV)​

I believe it is a sleight of hand to take the exact words spoken by God, in this case "εγω ειμι ο ων," and cut them in half to support any doctrine.

BUT.... but.. (and I can hear it now) The latter part of the verse says that Moses was to say "I AM" sent me unto you. Unfortunately, that sentence fragment is Ὁ ὢν, not Ἐγώ εἰμι.

The Brenton translation of the Septuagint correctly reads -

And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING (Ὁ ὢν); and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING (Ὁ ὢν), has sent me to you.​

(Exodus 3:14 Brenton)​

Were Jesus to have actually meant that he was the "I am" in the OT, he would have said, Ὁ ὢν. But he didn't. Jesus did not use the OT "I AM," plain and simple as a matter of language.

Language matters, and words matter. I think it very disingenuous (that means one is lying) to attach meaning to words that just absolutely cannot convey such meaning.

While I do not have the time to step y'all through how λεγω υμιν πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι should be translated, when you do the work for yourself, you'll find that Jesus said "Abraham was before, I am (here now)". None of the Abraham stuff mattered any longer once Jesus "was here."

Rhema

PS: Now other arguments might be successful for the Trinity, but not even Trinitarian scholars state that John 8:58 is supportive of this doctrine. (And I apologize for not providing references, but would it matter?)

 

[Rhema]

But None of the original Greek manuscripts add "a" here.

Given that there is no indefinite article in the Greek language, it would have been rather impossible to add an "a" in anywhere. The word "a" does not exist in the language.

But the word "the" does.

However.... the definite article in the Greek language (their "the") is nearly inscrutable. One might say that for "God" in this verse to BE God, one would have needed to write the definite article as a definitive to indicate that meant θεος is to mean GOD.

One of the foremost Greek scholars alive today, Daniel Wallace, has admitted that there is no Pattern to where or why a Greek passage might or might not add in a definite article. To be honest, then, any argument based on the presence or absence of an article is worthless.

As an example, the definite article is used in American English for certain words like "doctor" and "hospital." Americans say they go to THE doctor and THE hospital, the British omit the definite article, saying they "went to hospital" (sounds weird no?). There is another noun in American English wherein the article is added or left out willy-nilly. Americans can say they are going to church, OR going to the church.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

this might suffice, and I may not need to reply?

As long as you can admit that "Hierarchy" is rejected by the Doctrine of the Trinity.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

It took the pagans in the Roman Catholic Church to adapt Christendom's Trinity in the third century AD.

The fun question to ask is, why would they do that?

Christendom's Trinity did not become official "Christian" teaching until two pagan Roman Emperors intervened

And there you have it.

The Roman Emperors were seen by the populace as God (or a god ... whatever). So how could a God worship a man ... or become a disciple of a "mere" man?

When Constantine alarmingly discovered that about half of his army were Christians, he was faced with a dilemma. One that continued through history until the American Revolution - Who had greater power? The Pope or the King?

Now the Bishops knew that it would be of great benefit to the church were Constantine to become Christian. And when Constantine finally said, "GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER," they had the opportunity to elevate Jesus to be God (in essence creating this doctrine of the Trinity) and everybody was happy.

Rhema

BTW, when Paul wrote "the god of this world" he was speaking about the Roman Emperor.

 

[Rhema]

A spirit can not die.

Where did you come up with that one? (Seriously. I'm interested.)

I did a quick search on spirit and die, and only three unrelated verses popped up.

Within the Greek language, "you" are a psuche. You don't have one, you are one. But psuche isn't pneuma. It's most often translated "soul."

And the soul can die. It's not immortal.

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life (PSUCHE - SOUL), what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?​

(Matthew 6:25 KJV)​

​

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (PSUCHE): but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

(Matthew 10:28 KJV)​

Rhema