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Is suicide a sin? Do you go to hell for it?

Is suicide a sin? Do you go to hell for it?


  • Total voters
    75
if something doesn't make sense according to my logic filter, I deem it not true.
I always try to base the conclusions that I come to on scripture and never on my heart

EXHIBIT 1: Lesson in Epistemology

a) human-beings are systematically confused as to what is generated from the heart vs. the head (logic)
b) they may at one time, deny the heart to prove their point...and at another, adhere to what it's shown them to be truth. Same is the case for the head, vice-versa.
c) point (a) or (b) doesn't matter to humans. What matters is that they point to SOMETHING that they can use as a reasonable/rational "source". Something that can be "sold" as perfectly justifiable. Defensible.
d) per point (a) or (b), Christians in particular like to point to "scripture" as the smoking gun for their reason for conclusion, and may remain generally unaware that it was their own filter that persuaded the translation of said scripture.
e) human-beings are generally very comfortable closing the book on mystery and wonder, by declaring that they have indeed found a certain truth. This is generally a control mechanism, which provides a pseudo sense of comfort.
f) Christians find this sense of control particular comforting, if not vital to survival. After all, they consider themselves the ones with all the answers, even to things which they cannot know.


Oddly enough, many of these same patters of discovery may lead another human towards the act of suicide, depending on how the rabbit trail may wind about.
 
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dimitri: The condenmnation of the act of suicide does not include the condemnation of the person commiting the act ..

Okay, I forgot for a moment the types of minds that I was talking to here, let me rephrase what I said in my earlier post:

I Corinthians 3:17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Not only does the verse above clearly condemn the act of destroying the temple of God, but according to the underlined, emboldened, and italicized part it clearly condemns the person who done the act as well. And what is the temple of God?

I Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? ( KJV )

I Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? ( NASB )

Now, I suppose that one could attempt to argue that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, which was meant to cover all sins past, present and future ( which I've still yet to see proof of in scripture ) also covers the act that is mentioned here in I Corinthians. But, if that were true WHY would Paul use the wording that he uses here? "the Spirit of God dwells in you?" He is most assuredly speaking to believers, correct? Of course. He would not be telling unbelievers that the Spirit of God dwells in them. Now "If ANY man destroys the temple of God, God WILL destroy him." must also include even the believer.

Please stop trying to shape the Word of God to fit something that you want to believe and let the Word of God shape what you believe.
 
Oh, and by the way, s.i.e.

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Originally Posted by Stickz

and you would have to to think that someone could kill themselves and still go to Heaven. I




You KNOW that "s.i.e." holds tightly to a certain doctrine. You unequivocably know this. It's obvious. It's inherent in s.i.e.'s statement. He would "have to" believe such-and-such...

You know this.

Yes, I believe it's a safe assumption:

s.i.e. ( earlier in this thread ):Here are a couple verses that come to my mind, that seem to be at odds with the above reasoning:
John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another"

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast"

Romans 3:20, 28 "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

Galatians 2:16 "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

I John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."​
There is a difference between being a slave to sin versus sinning. We all sin. Probably, we all sin daily. To say you don't, is self deceit, as I John says.

I used to have a degree of fear, based on my wondering about what would happen if I died on a day that I sinned, but I died before I was able to repent for it.

Is that Biblical?

I don't have that fear anymore, because if I can't believe that God's Grace is big enough for that...then He's simply not a big enough God for me, and we would all be destined for hell depending on the sequence of how our sin/repentence patterns shook out in our end-of-days.

And that puts the onus on me, to get myself to "act right", and "perform" a certain way, in order for me to see the pearly gates.

No, that is not Biblical.

Yes, some (too many!) Churches teach an "easy religion"...I agree. But, it's far easier to try to act/perform/do/do-not/manage-your-sin, than it is to actually trust God. Trusting God, is, in its essence, a not-doing. It is a trusting. And it is much much harder for us to take on this mode of allowing the yoke to be easy and the burden to be light. And we do that by "not-doing". We do that by trusting. Matthew 11:30

Repentence is for us. It is for our hearts. It is not for God. God has already forgiven, and His work has already been done. He does not forgive us based on when we repent. He has unilaterally, already, forgiven us even before we come and ask for repentence...if we are already in Christ. And if we are already in Christ, we are, in fact, called Saints. We are Saints, who sin...believe it or not. And that is a radical thought. One that my carnality wants to reject. Because it leaves me with relatively nothing to do. And that is quite hard. It is not a cop-out.

As for your "Lesson in Epistemology" and in regards to your above post, how exactly did you come to the conclusions that you came to in that post? You believe that you interpret the verses that you posted in the correct way, right? Of course you do, you pretty much say that in your post. So, either you ran things through your "logic filter" to decide what to believe about them, OR you would try to claim that God has most assuredly given you the truth of scripture? Maybe there is another option, but if there is I'm not sure that I know of it. Could you tell me how you came to those conclusions?

And when I said "heart" I meant emotions. I do not let my emotions come into play when I'm considering scripture, as lots of others do.
 
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Stickz ,,,For the Christian there is no more condemnation period forever . That is my response to you ..
 
Sticz in answer to your question about Homsexuality ...My answer is Yes ...Provided that they were saved
In answer to your implication that i am trying to change the word to meet my perspective ,,My advice is to take your own advice because that is probably the most hypocritical statement that you can make right now .
Because i don't have but 21 posts i can't reply to all of your posts with qouatations .. because youre post contains links ..
 
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Again the interpretation of the scripture is challenged by scripture itself. It isn't that scripture contradicts itself, it's that scripture contradicts the way that some "Christians" choose to interpret it. Just so that you know, dimitri, I'm finished talking to you, this post was not meant for you. So, I expect absolutely no response from you whatsoever. Good luck.

Read the following in their context and judge for yourselves:

I Corinthians 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

I Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

How could this happen to a Christian, novice or not? According to the way that many people interpret Romans 8:1 this should be impossible. But, here you have it.

James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

James had to be referring to unbelievers here, right?

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

IF Romans 8:1 were meant to be interpreted the way that many interpret it, the above verses would have to be explained to avoid contradiction in scripture. IF Christians could NEVER face the possibility of condemnation after accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, why so many verses that seem to threaten Christians with condemnation?
 
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Could you tell me how you came to those conclusions?

First of all...I'm not sure I came to much of any conclusion. My words may not seem like that, because I can write strongly....but they are suppositions, at best. They are what I think. Op-ed. I try to hold open my hand so I can let my manmade assumptions get molded and formed. I try to not close it. (I do that terribly poorly, by the way)



The difference here, is that I'm actually saying I don't know much at all....whereas you are saying you know A LOT of things. You know s.i.e., you KNOW scripture, and you know a person who commits suicide will surely burn in hell forever.

To me, that is pious and self righteous. Non-Christians may use other words, like cocky / arrogant / full-of-himself / proud / closed-minded / Bible-banger, or whatever.
 
Stickz. Were You abused as a child or bullied in some way ? That is a serious question ..Im not joking .. Because the behavior that you exhibit is atypical of someone attempting to compensate for feelings of inferiority and or inadequacy ..Do you ever step back and ask why you cannot seem to communicate without most of the time hurling insults . Do you ever ask why you feel the need to manipulate what someone has said ? Do you ever wonder why you gain some sort of cotentment by attacking others ? I fully respect youre right to cease contact with me ..In fact i count it a blessing because i really don't need to be mistreated and the temptation is just too great for me to tell you to .. how can i say this? ... Ferry Off ..But i came to this board because i need help .. i just haven't gotten to the point where i feel well enough to talk about the things that i need to talk about .. i didn't come here to be mistreated ...so with that i will end my communication with you ..And without meaning to be offensive i suggest you get some counseling for whatever your problem really is ,,
Dimitri
 
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It's funny, when I go back and re-read all the posts that have been submitted, I don't see these things, in my posts, that you two are referring to. I see where you two started the name calling, where I have just been trying to discuss scripture with you. You two have resorted to what? trying to show me why I have mental issues of some kind? Why? Because I believe that a scripture from the Bible condemns someone who commits suicide? Which no one has even offered another meaning for yet, by the way. These tactics that you two have resorted to are very childish.
 
philosopher: Hi Stickz, we actually agree on this topic more than you appear to think. I've always felt that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is just the outright denial and rejection of Jesus as Lord and saviour. A person has only committed this sin if they died without accepting Jesus though. Examine Mark 3:29 for instance.

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.(KJV)

It tells us that by the persons denial, they're ''in danger of'' eternal damnation, not that they have already lost hope.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

If you cannot be forgiven, are you not then damned? Do we not have to be able to receive forgiveness to enter Heaven? Jesus plainly said that if one blasphemed the Holy Ghost that they would NEVER be forgiven.

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
 
These tactics that you two have resorted to are very childish.

You are all too kind, Stickz. Thank you. I find it very hard to believe that of myself. I would indeed aspire to become more in-tune with the ways of children, but I think I'm a far cry from it, to be honest.

Why is it, that it is so much harder to truly accept a compliment, than a criticism? I think children are really good at accepting compliments. As they should be. After all, we're all children of God. Children know that. Adults, like me, forget or deny it often.

[h=3]Mark 10:13-15[/h]English Standard Version (ESV)

[h=3]Let the Children Come to Me[/h]13 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
 
Sticz..Where did we call you names ? If if i did i apologize but the only thing i can remember is that i said you made a hypocritical statement .. I think that is pointing out a fact rather trying to label you ..I am hypocritical at least five times a day ..I have to agree with s.e.i. being childish is quite a compliment .. I mean in some ways you can't pay another person a higher compliment .
About the unpardonable sin , the same as suicide it is important not to take that out of context ..Moreover the unpardonasble sin does not even belong in a discussion regarding Christians simply because for the Christian there is no sin that can remain unforgiven because it already is forgiven ..
 
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Read the following in their context and judge for yourselves:

I Corinthians 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

I Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

How could this happen to a Christian, novice or not? According to the way that many people interpret Romans 8:1 this should be impossible. But, here you have it.

James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

James had to be referring to unbelievers here, right?

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

IF Romans 8:1 were meant to be interpreted the way that many interpret it, the above verses would have to be explained to avoid contradiction in scripture. IF Christians could NEVER face the possibility of condemnation after accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, why so many verses that seem to threaten Christians with condemnation?

I read these verses, and what about them? You are obviously of the opinion that whenever the word "condemn" is used it automatically means hell-fire damnation, but that is not true at all. None of the verses you posted here have to do with salvation or damnation.

James 5:12 condemnation g5272 ὑπόκρισις hypokrisis

1) an answering
2) an answer
3) the acting of a stage player
4) dissimulation, hypocrisy

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 7
AV — hypocrisy 5, dissimulation 1, condemnation 1

.......this verse is saying don't swear by anything and become a hypocrite ........ or, don't swear by anything, or you'll have to answer for it. It doesn't say don't swear by those things or you'll lose your salvation.


I Corinthians 11:34 condemnation g2917 κρίμα krima

1) a decree, judgments
2) judgment
a) condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes on the faults of others
b) in a forensic sense
1) the sentence of a judge
2) the punishment with which one is sentenced
3) condemnatory sentence, penal judgment, sentence
3) a matter to be judicially decided, a lawsuit, a case in court

.....this verse is referring to church discipline, not loss of salvation. Most of Corinthians is about such things.

I Timothy 3:6, James 3:1 : same word, Krima, as in 1 Cor 11:34. And it is the devil doing the condemning in the 1st verse.


Rom 2:1 g2632 κατακρίνω katakrinō
1) to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment
a) to condemn
b) by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurable

.........this verse states that when we judge others, we condemn ourselves and will be judged in the same way (this even applies to you).

Romans 14:22 g2919 κρίνω krinō
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
2) to approve, esteem, to prefer
3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
4) to determine, resolve, decree
5) to judge
a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
6) to rule, govern
a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants
a) to dispute
b) in a forensic sense
1) to go to law, have suit at law


......this verse is simply admonishing us - as in the other example - to not be a hypocrite in what we approve of, and to keep it between us and God. But it seems you want to condemn everyone who doesn't see things exactly the same way you do. You even go so far as to refer to them as "Christians", which is something you should concern yourself about, since that very type of attitude is what these verses are talking about!!!

Romans 8:1 g2631 κατάκριμα katakrima
1) damnatory sentence, condemnation

.......THIS verse comes straight out and explicitly says that there is NO DAMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus.

So there's my response to your request that we read all your verses in context and judge them for ourself; and no doubt my answers are different than yours.

Do you only see God as being wrath, and Christians subject to it unless we continuously please or try to please Him? Is that why you are so works-oriented? Because you think God is harsh and ever-ready to condemn, as if He's just waiting for us to trip up so He can rain down His fury on us? Are we under God's thumb or in His hands as believers?
You seem to pick out all the verses you can find about judgment, condemnation, obedience, rules, etc., but do not seem to care that God said he is plenteous in mercy and would have mercy, not sacrifice.

Lastly, do you think the Apostle Paul's words in Galatians 5 apply to you, or just those that don't think like you???

Galatians 5: "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: ......enmities, strife, jealousy, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice
such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Please try to think twice before you judge another Christian as being a "Christian", in quotes, ie: meaning you don't think they really are one because they don't agree with you.
 
Rom 2:1 g2632 κατακρίνω katakrinō
1) to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment
a) to condemn
b) by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurable

.........this verse states that when we judge others, we condemn ourselves and will be judged in the same way (this even applies to you).

And you.

Peace Seeker: Hi, brother. Homosexuals can call themselves born-again all they want, but it doesn't mean they are. They are wrong because the bible tells us we must repent of our sins, and clearly states that man shall not lie with man, it is an abomination. And churches and congregations that support abominations and sinful living are wrong.

If you'll use that same book that you used in your last post and look up the word "abomination" you should see that all sin, all unrighteousness, is considered an abomination by God. So, what that means, Peace Seeker, is that if you "practice" a sin, or commit the same sin on a daily basis, YOU are no better than the homosexuals. Jesus either died for the permanent forgiveness of EVERY sin or He didn't die for the permanent forgiveness of any of them. If YOU can commit the same sin every day and still be saved, so can the homosexuals. No matter what sin that may be, because sin is sin. I'm sure that you will justify yourself somehow though. People that believe like you always do.

I Timothy 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. ( NASB )

incur:

1.
to come into or acquire (some consequence, usually undesirable or injurious): to incur a huge number of debts.

2.

to become liable or subject to through one's own action; bring or take upon oneself: to incur his displeasure.

But, my intentions are not at all to prove you wrong and to get you to side with me; I know that that won't happen in this life. Everyone who cares enough will search for themselves, and decide for themselves. That is my only intention here: To show scripture for my argument, let your side show for yours, and allow people to decide for themselves. The sad thing is is that no matter what could possibly be proved here by showing scripture and definitions of words the people that believe like you will continue to believe like you and the people that believe like me will continue to believe like me. One of us is wrong and one is right, and there really doesn't seem to be a real way to prove which one it is.
 
And you.

If YOU can commit the same sin every day and still be saved, so can the homosexuals. No matter what sin that may be, because sin is sin. I'm sure that you will justify yourself somehow though. People that believe like you always do.

I will ignore your holier-than-thou, Pharisaic jab at me (I hope you aren't wont to think, "thank God I am not a sinner like Peace Seeker" !! - Luke 18:10-14) and just say, contrary to what you may think I believe, I don't believe a born-again Christian can live in habitual sin. Nor have I suggested that one's mere claim to be a Christian is valid if there is no evidence of his new birth, which includes turning from sin and living for God instead of self, etc. So, for the purposes of discussing salvation, your comparing of homosexuals with people who sin continuously while calling themselves Christians is a straw-man argument that does not stand.

I have seen you talk about sin a lot in your posts. Did you sin today? Yesterday? Was it a sin that you did some other time as well? Have you done it more than once? Much more? What to you, is a persistent or habitual sin? Throughout this thread you have exhibited an air of self-righteousness and superiority - is that a habitual sin of yours? Can you still be saved with such an attitude? God bless!
 
Here's a thought............ We all as Christians can't wait to be in paradise with Jusus. So if we believe, IE: are saved, then why don't we all just rid oursleves of this world and kill oursleves and go be with Christ? After all, what's better, life here on earth or paradise? Personally, I think God has a misson for us all, so when we are "due to die" is in his hands. We need to be here to be examples and lead others to him.

Another thought, Saul was a man of God, in eventually "fell on his sword" in battle. Where id he go?
 
Here's a thought............ We all as Christians can't wait to be in paradise with Jusus. So if we believe, IE: are saved, then why don't we all just rid oursleves of this world and kill oursleves and go be with Christ? After all, what's better, life here on earth or paradise? Personally, I think God has a misson for us all, so when we are "due to die" is in his hands. We need to be here to be examples and lead others to him.

Another thought, Saul was a man of God, in eventually "fell on his sword" in battle. Where id he go?

I would hardly consider Saul a man of God. He spent most of his time chasing David.
 
Just think Jesus actually became sin and his Father still raised him up pure.
So did Jesus die in sin?

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus also condemned sin so why would we give it more power than Jesus.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


 
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.1 Corinthians 6:19-20

You shall not murder. Exodus 20:13

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

We wait in hope for the LORD; he is our help and our shield. In him our hearts rejoice, for we trust in his holy name. May your unfailing love rest upon us, O LORD, even as we put our hope in you. Psalms 33:20-22
 
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