John 3:16 - What does it mean?

[Stickz]

gdemoss: Might it be possible that they could have actually done the works that were spoken of but also not lived according to the law of Christ.

Would you consider this person a believer or an unbeliever? I'm assuming that you would consider them unbelievers because if they remain in their current state they will be told to go away for they work iniquity. If this were possible, I will have to re-work my theory on non-believers being able to perform miracles in Jesus' name .... I'll rethink things considering the information that you have given.

gdemoss: Wouldn't this have made them workers of iniquity even though they did such good things? Though I bestow my body to be burned and have not charity, I am nothing. Consider also the churches in Revelation who had done good things but yet had things they needed to overcome if they were to be given to eat of the tree of life or avoid being hurt by second death or sit in his throne with him.

You make a couple of interesting points here. I need to go back and read those letters in Revelation again, I admittedly don't spend a lot of time in that particular book anymore. Is it ever said that the people performed miracles, in Jesus' name, in those letters?

How many of you actually know someone ( believer or unbeliever ) that can perform genuine miracles?

Donnie Ducati:
It means that God loves us so much that he was willing to take our place on the Cross Himself.

No need to get real deep.

If this statement is true, Donnie, how do you interpret Jesus telling us to pick up our crosses and follow him?

How far off of the main topic of the thread are we?

 

[jari]

Sorry, Jari, I had thought that someone was suggesting that because they called him, "Lord", that that was somehow an indication that they had been saved, and I was trying to show that both believers and unbelievers, according to scripture, can refer to Him as "Lord". The fact that they refer to Jesus as "Lord" in Matthew 7:21-23 tells us nothing about their salvation status. I've re-read the thread and think that I might have misunderstood what was being said though. My bad, sorry.

in my opinion the part where God says I never knew you tells their status and that was unsaved (not born again).

Im sure God knowing you doesnt have to with God's recognition on you because of your effort. But rather because of you being born as new creation (Born again).

That makes a lot more sense to me than anything ive heard so far.

 

[jari]

I do not understand you.

You said you believe we are known to Christ by our fellowship to Him. In reference to this verse you quoted:
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "

My question to you why these people were not know by God?
As Jesus says in next verse He never knew them.

 

[gdemoss]

You said you believe we are known to Christ by our fellowship to Him. In reference to this verse you quoted:
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "

My question to you why these people were not know by God?
As Jesus says in next verse He never knew them.

I stated in my earlier post what it means to be known of God. They failed to meet the requirements. I know you say they were not 'born again' and work to fit everyone into the mold of saved and unsaved. But you believe OSAS so you cannot understand my reasoning anyway.

You believe you are saved but I say unto you that if you do not meet the requirements for salvation in the day of judgement then you too will be one of these who hears the words 'I never knew you'. You will be judged by your works Rom 2:5-11. Your works cannot save you Eph 2:8-9. They can only condemn you as a nonbeliever even though your mouth says you believe and your mind tells you the same. If your works do not show that you believe then you do not believe in Gods opinion.

Lets take a peek at what 'I' imagine judgement day to look like. I know ultimately Jesus himself will do the judging but I wanted to look at it as if it were God the Father:

Man stands before God in his throne and the books are opened. The trial begins:

God: It is time for you to give an account of your life to me. What do you have to say for yourself?

Man: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God and that he died for my sin so that I could be restored to fellowship with you and have eternal life.

God: You believe Jesus is the Son of God?

Man: Yes Sir.

God: What does that mean to you?

Man: It means that he is the Word of God made flesh who dwelt among us and is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords! Every knee shall bow to him to the glory of the Father.

God: So Jesus is your Lord?

Man: Yes Sir, I love him because he first loved me.

God: In my book it says that you have cast out devils, prophesied and done many other wonderful works.

Man: Yes Sir, As I said I love Jesus.

God: But what about these other things written here that you have done? What do you have to say about them?

Man: Oh those, if you remember I confessed those sins and I know that you are righteous and just to forgive me my sins and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. Your word says that I have an advocate with the father Jesus Christ the Righteous. And it also says that you have lovingly saved me by Grace through faith. That it wasn't of my works or anything I did. I have absolutely no room to boast. Beside all of this I am convinced that there is no good thing in me. When I will to do good, evil is present with me and it isn't me doing it but sin that dwells within me.

God: Have you not read "to whom you yield your selves servants to obey his servants you are?"

Man: Yes,

God: Have you not read "he became author of eternal salvation to all who obey him?

Man: um...yeah.

God: Or "if you do not forgive others their tresspassess neither will your father in heaven forgive yours."?

Man: but....

God: Jesus was sent into the world that whoever would believe in him would not perish but you see faith without works is dead. Jesus was the light of the world. Those who love the light become like the light. They have boldness here before my throne because they walked as he walked. Jesus warned you that if you didn't pick up your cross and deny yourself that you couldn't even be his disciple yet you spent 90% of your time in life dedicated to all of your own pet projects trying to improve the status of your own life. You were given the example of Paul as a follower of Christ who showed you what it looked like to be dead to self and alive unto God yet you determined that his walk was only his role to play and decided not to follow the path laid out for you. It was explained to you that the corruption that is in the world is through human desire and that you could escape that corruption through the knowledge of the one who called you to glory. Jesus told you to turn the other cheek when you were hit and to give to anyone who asks of you. He explained to you that the meek inherit the Earth and that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to the poor in spirit. He warned you against trusting in uncertain riches and admonished you about looking at women in that way. What do you have to say for yourself?

Man: I throw myself upon your great mercy! I only trust in the blood of Jesus Christ and his finished work upon the cross. I am unworthy to be called your son.

God: Why you call him Lord, Lord and do not the things which he said?

Man: Your law is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I serve you with my mind but my flesh gets in the way.

God: Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you.


I don't want anyone to have to hear that message. Unfortunately most will.

Gary

 

[jari]

So what did Jesus do to you... so you could get to heaven? Nothing?

He gave word for you to follow and to save your self that's how you see it and thats how many others see. But what did Jesus do to you so you would get to Heaven? Nothing?

Jesus is savior to me. If He doesnt save me i should indeed be saving my self and then He would not be savior. He could be merely defined as helper or assistant and I could thank God for Holy spirit but He surely wouldnt be my savior.

So i trust in Him as salvation as that's why He died. Why else He died? To remove sin? What is sin? that's just one step. Israelities had Law against sin and Sin offering to deal with that. If that's all Jesus did for me I might just as well become a Jew and do God's will to get to Heaven. It would make no difference are you jew or christian then. But no Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the Law. Which includes being condemmed by any requirement because thats what law is.

Anyaway even you wouldnt agree with me I have to say that if you think God will know you only if you do His will then that doesnt make sense to me and I think you really need better explanation for that. Otherwise its like this. Your doing God's will and God thinks "my Son!" your not doing it and God thinks "I dont know who this is".

The scripture says God never knew the people who said Lord Lord and explained all the things they had done in Jesus name. If doing God's will however would have changed things I think it would've been very bizarre wording. Because God says He Never knew them , as in never ever knew them, if people dont do His will.

still one thing we can agree on if that unless man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

but you say God might never knew them even born again? bible teaches otherwise.
1 we are God's children
2 we are heirs
3 God has given us his Holy spirit


Rom 8:15-17 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

but you seem to say God will say at judgement day to His child "i never knew you" ?

 

[jari]

You believe you are saved but I say unto you that if you do not meet the requirements for salvation in the day of judgement then you too will be one of these who hears the words 'I never knew you'. You will be judged by your works Rom 2:5-11. Your works cannot save you Eph 2:8-9. They can only condemn you as a nonbeliever even though your mouth says you believe and your mind tells you the same. If your works do not show that you believe then you do not believe in Gods opinion.

really? where does it say that? if i believe in God's opinion and know this my self what for i need works?

 

[PrinceMichael]

John 3:16 is the one quote that expresses His true love for us, that Yahweh sent His one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I am the Vine, You are the branches. His love is eternal and steadfast for believers, He shepards them and protects His sheep. We need to combat the anti-semitism in the world because that is not the foundation of faith, to hate one another. Islam has a huge problem with their "one mind", they are going to struggle enormously with the truth as they attempt to rid the world of Judaism and the Jewish State, Israel.

If you are going to stand for Israel, then do it with love and understanding, regardless of the foolish politics that have proven to fail at Oslo. Christ does not return as a politician in a suit, He returns as conquering King and Lord of Lords.

Blessings to all my Jews and Christians

 

[brakelite]

really? where does it say that? if i believe in God's opinion and know this my self what for i need works?

All the sheep, and all the goats will be judged by their works. There will be many who went to church every week, who considered themselves Christians, who called Jesus 'Lord', even considered themselves 'sheep' and Jesus their 'Shepherd' but will discover to their horror that they are in fact goats. Their profession to laying claim to the title 'sheep' will be discovered as false when Jesus says to them,

Matt. 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

You Jari will be judged by whether or not you fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc. In other words, whether you loved your neighbour.
And whether you like it or not, it is a salvation issue.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

It is your works that decide whether you are a sheep or a goat.

 

[RJ]

All the sheep, and all the goats will be judged by their works. There will be many who went to church every week, who considered themselves Christians, who called Jesus 'Lord', even considered themselves 'sheep' and Jesus their 'Shepherd' but will discover to their horror that they are in fact goats. Their profession to laying claim to the title 'sheep' will be discovered as false when Jesus says to them,

Matt. 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

You Jari will be judged by whether or not you fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc. In other words, whether you loved your neighbour.
And whether you like it or not, it is a salvation issue.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

It is your works that decide whether you are a sheep or a goat.

I think the main point here is what came first the Chicken or the Egg?
In this case what came first Faith or works?

<SUP>8</SUP> For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— <SUP id=en-NIV1984-29223 class=versenum>9</SUP> not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26

First, we are saved by faith ( beleif) in God's grace. The above verse in Ephesians clearly states it is not by our works first; it is a gift from God first.

Please understand, at this point, God has decided you are SAVED and you are already a sheep, a child of God.
At your judgement day, you are merely separated from the "Goats", the unbeleivers! You go or remain in heaven with God and the unsaved are removed to hell or the absence of God. Now, in this life, we can choose to help unbeleivers the truth or avoid them but, but we can not entirely seperate ourselves from them. In the spirit world of God, he will completely separate us from them for all eternity.

Afterwards, as in the verse from James, it is by works that you are recognized as a sheep. With out these works, your faith is dead...you were not saved in the first place.

Also, these works that prove you are saved is not entirely of your self it is still a part of grace and of God:
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-26692 class=versenum>3</SUP> You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-26693 class=versenum>4</SUP> Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-26694 class=versenum>5</SUP> “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
John 15:3-5

Grace >Faith> Salvation> Works

Not

Grace>Faith> Works>Salvation

 

[jari]

All the sheep, and all the goats will be judged by their works. There will be many who went to church every week, who considered themselves Christians, who called Jesus 'Lord', even considered themselves 'sheep' and Jesus their 'Shepherd' but will discover to their horror that they are in fact goats. Their profession to laying claim to the title 'sheep' will be discovered as false when Jesus says to them,

Matt. 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

You Jari will be judged by whether or not you fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc. In other words, whether you loved your neighbour.
And whether you like it or not, it is a salvation issue.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

It is your works that decide whether you are a sheep or a goat.

Sorry I dont agree. Your missing important parts of the context. Your laying it our like you and me should be going and doing good things or showing love to brethen or else we are goats. That doesn't make sense at all. Works can't define what you are. When we talk about what you are works can only show what you are but they cannot ever make you something you arent. Therefore goats can do all this thinking they avoid judgement. They still remain goats.

And you missed out these verses:

Mat 25:38-40 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? (39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? (40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


The Righteuess in these verses didnt know when they did those things. They did them because they were righteuss.
But they didnt do them to become righteuss or sheeps instead of goats, because they did those things.
They did them without knowing God would be pleased because they were righteuss.

Also these people are predestinated from the beginning:

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


So salvation is still not of works like the bible says. The difference comes when we believe and produce good fruit during our life because we believe and are already saved. And not in order to try and to make our selfs a sheep.

 

[PrinceMichael]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brakelite
All the sheep, and all the goats will be judged by their works. There will be many who went to church every week, who considered themselves Christians, who called Jesus 'Lord', even considered themselves 'sheep' and Jesus their 'Shepherd' but will discover to their horror that they are in fact goats. Their profession to laying claim to the title 'sheep' will be discovered as false when Jesus says to them,

Matt. 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

You Jari will be judged by whether or not you fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc. In other words, whether you loved your neighbour.
And whether you like it or not, it is a salvation issue.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

It is your works that decide whether you are a sheep or a goat.
Sorry I dont agree. Your missing important parts of the context. Your laying it our like you and me should be going and doing good things or showing love to brethen or else we are goats. That doesn't make sense at all. Works can't define what you are. When we talk about what you are works can only show what you are but they cannot ever make you something you arent. Therefore goats can do all this thinking they avoid judgement. They still remain goats.

And you missed out these verses:

Mat 25:38-40 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? (39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? (40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


The Righteuess in these verses didnt know when they did those things. They did them because they were righteuss.
But they didnt do them to become righteuss or sheeps instead of goats, because they did those things.
They did them without knowing God would be pleased because they were righteuss.

Also these people are predestinated from the beginning:

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


So salvation is still not of works like the bible says. The difference comes when we believe and produce good fruit during our life because we believe and are already saved. And not in order to try and to make our selfs a sheep.

--- Eph 3:17 "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, ...." ---


You are sort of correct Jari, he will divide the sheep from the goats, the "goats" he is referring to are not those whose work will be in the world to come, those who produce good fruit.
Christ was referring to the "tares" of the wicked one, which will be plucked form the earth and burned. Those are the ones whose work was found very evil and their evil works follow them to condemnation.

You are correct.

 

[Kit Carson]

Saying it simply, it means what it means.

God gave his son for us. Very grand and perfect situation. God gave his son so we could have eternal life.

As far as different wording in different bibles I pay no attention to that, as the base message is the truth and the same.

Just like the different stories of the resurrection, some say this means conflict and contradiction, to me it means the Holy Spirit was speaking to different men, and they just put it in their own words. So that proves to me more than perfectly matching stories that the base message is totally true.

Kit

 

[gdemoss]

Would you consider this person a believer or an unbeliever? I'm assuming that you would consider them unbelievers because if they remain in their current state they will be told to go away for they work iniquity. If this were possible, I will have to re-work my theory on non-believers being able to perform miracles in Jesus' name .... I'll rethink things considering the information that you have given.

It can be so difficult because we want everything in black and white. Consider the following for your study of non-believers performing miracles in the name of God:

31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. 33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. 34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the **** shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

This is the most intriguing piece of scripture that I have ever mused upon when it comes to belief and unbelief. By this time in his walk with the Lord, Peter had already walked on water which could not have been done except in faith. A true miracle. These verses are within the context of the last supper and Jesus has just explained to them that he has appointed to them a kingdom just as the Father has him. Within that statement he uses the word that means 'might happen' and not a guarantee. And as we consider the text we see that Jesus the Son of God has prayed for Peter that his faith fail not but then tell Peter that he will fail in unbelief.

Please allow me to paraphrase the text so you may see the way I understand the exchange.

Peter, Satan is going to put you to the test and you will fail. I have interceded for you in prayer that ultimately you will continue in the faith. So then, when you return from rejecting me, build up your brethren. Peter says "I will follow no matter what!". The Lord replies "No you wont".

Why did Peters faith fail? Because it wasn't entirely based upon the truth. Peter says that he believes that Jesus is Messiah the Son of God yet he tells Jesus that he is wrong when he says Peter will turn from him. Ultimately Peter moves to prove his faith in wielding the sword in his defense of Jesus. Peter is not truly following Jesus as Lord and Master. We know that ultimately Peter learns from his experience and is restored unto Christ. This time with humility after being humiliated. He would go on to write 2 Peter explaining to his 'brethren' what he learned along the way. The things that they could add to their 'faith' that they never fall but instead be admitted into the kingdom. The things he was lacking when he fell. In the end Peters faith did not fail as he literally picked up his cross, denied himself and was crucified, following him even unto death and we see Jesus' prayer for Peter ultimately answered.

When dealing with salvation we must be able to determine what exactly saving faith is. This was my ultimate goal of this thread. John 3:16 has been considered the verse of salvation by many. Can it be said that at the point of Jesus' arrest that Peter had saving faith? Was his faith made perfect by his works? Was he walking in the faith of faithful Abraham? Why did Jesus feel it necessary to pray that ultimately Peter not fail to continue in the faith? I go back to the point I made about the context of John 3:16. When speaking about having eternal life instead of condemnation it is clearly stated what that condemnation is. That light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light. Jesus once told Peter that Peter's mind was not fixed upon what God wanted but rather temporal men. At that point Jesus is telling him that he loved darkness not light. Ultimately Peter came to love the light and loose all of his blindness but I think we would do ourselves a favor to heed his earlier state.

You make a couple of interesting points here. I need to go back and read those letters in Revelation again, I admittedly don't spend a lot of time in that particular book anymore. Is it ever said that the people performed miracles, in Jesus' name, in those letters?

No it does not. Which proves nothing except that there were 7 churches full of people who may or may not end up saved who may or may not have preformed miracles in Jesus' name.

How many of you actually know someone ( believer or unbeliever ) that can perform genuine miracles?

I do not know of any. Unless you consider answered prayer that manifests itself as physical reality a miracle.

How far off of the main topic of the thread are we?

:shade:


Have a blessed night

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

So what did Jesus do to you... so you could get to heaven? Nothing?

To me? He opened my eyes to the truth. He converted my heart.

For me? He paid the price for my sin.

He gave word for you to follow and to save your self that's how you see it and thats how many others see. But what did Jesus do to you so you would get to Heaven? Nothing?

He gave me the word so I could 'become' it.

Jesus is savior to me. If He doesnt save me i should indeed be saving my self and then He would not be savior. He could be merely defined as helper or assistant and I could thank God for Holy spirit but He surely wouldnt be my savior.

Jesus opened the door. You have to walk through.

So i trust in Him as salvation as that's why He died. Why else He died? To remove sin? What is sin? that's just one step. Israelities had Law against sin and Sin offering to deal with that. If that's all Jesus did for me I might just as well become a Jew and do God's will to get to Heaven. It would make no difference are you jew or christian then. But no Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the Law. Which includes being condemmed by any requirement because thats what law is.

Jari, you still have to do Gods will if you want to receive the promise of eternal life. Mk 3:35, Heb 10:36.

Why don't you understand that Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the Mosaic Law, but we are under the Law of Christ? We are not without law and therefore cannot live in lawlessness or iniquity.

Anyaway even you wouldnt agree with me I have to say that if you think God will know you only if you do His will then that doesnt make sense to me and I think you really need better explanation for that. Otherwise its like this. Your doing God's will and God thinks "my Son!" your not doing it and God thinks "I dont know who this is".

Amen

The scripture says God never knew the people who said Lord Lord and explained all the things they had done in Jesus name. If doing God's will however would have changed things I think it would've been very bizarre wording. Because God says He Never knew them , as in never ever knew them, if people dont do His will.

Agreed. The wording is difficult. Try to see it as 'knew' as in having fellowship with type of knew. Not knowing who you are in the sense of your personal identity.

Example: I intimately know my wife as I have fellowship with her daily. I do not know the president of the United States though. I just know who he is.

This is what the text is conveying in its message of knowing someone.

still one thing we can agree on if that unless man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

but you say God might never knew them even born again? bible teaches otherwise.
1 we are God's children
2 we are heirs
3 God has given us his Holy spirit

Your not understanding my speech because of your definition of begin born again is not the same as mine.

Rom 8:15-17 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

but you seem to say God will say at judgement day to His child "i never knew you" ?

Lets be fair. You pulled text out of Rom 8. This text is within a context that is speaking to a specific group of people. Chapter 8 of Romans is built upon the foundation of the first 7 chapters and cannot be understood properly outside of that context unless it has been determined that the verses selected are universal truths independent of contextual base.

That said, Look very closely at verse 17 as it is conditional. " if " so be that we "suffer" with him. Do you see the condition based upon your works Jari? Please consider this carefully.

My goal is solely to give unto you what has been given unto me. I want nothing more than to celebrate for eternity with you side by side singing praise unto the Lord our God. But we must love the light and hate the darkness in order to go. And this will manifest itself in all that we do and say. Our faith will either be justified by our works or it won't. Our eternal destiny is dependent upon it.

Love in Christ the Lord of light,

Gary

 

[jari]

To me? He opened my eyes to the truth. He converted my heart.

For me? He paid the price for my sin.



He gave me the word so I could 'become' it.



Jesus opened the door. You have to walk through.



Jari, you still have to do Gods will if you want to receive the promise of eternal life. Mk 3:35, Heb 10:36.

Why don't you understand that Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the Mosaic Law, but we are under the Law of Christ? We are not without law and therefore cannot live in lawlessness or iniquity.



Amen



Agreed. The wording is difficult. Try to see it as 'knew' as in having fellowship with type of knew. Not knowing who you are in the sense of your personal identity.

Example: I intimately know my wife as I have fellowship with her daily. I do not know the president of the United States though. I just know who he is.

This is what the text is conveying in its message of knowing someone.



Your not understanding my speech because of your definition of begin born again is not the same as mine.




Lets be fair. You pulled text out of Rom 8. This text is within a context that is speaking to a specific group of people. Chapter 8 of Romans is built upon the foundation of the first 7 chapters and cannot be understood properly outside of that context unless it has been determined that the verses selected are universal truths independent of contextual base.

That said, Look very closely at verse 17 as it is conditional. " if " so be that we "suffer" with him. Do you see the condition based upon your works Jari? Please consider this carefully.

My goal is solely to give unto you what has been given unto me. I want nothing more than to celebrate for eternity with you side by side singing praise unto the Lord our God. But we must love the light and hate the darkness in order to go. And this will manifest itself in all that we do and say. Our faith will either be justified by our works or it won't. Our eternal destiny is dependent upon it.

Love in Christ the Lord of light,

Gary

Hi Gary, i think if you want to see things the way you see its entirely possible because everything can be interpreted to say what you say from the bible but I do believe if we take bible literally and make no assumptions then this "loose your salvation if your not doing God's will" find no room whatsoever from the Bible.

I hope still even you would not agree with me that you'd understand my point of view and admitted that there's nothing in bible that contradicts what I say now...



Born again is rebirth. Doing God's will doesnt make us born again. I did say something about this already but you just said I wont understand your defintion of born again. But let me put it this way. Doing God's will makes you as much as born again as going work place makes you born as baby again. It doesnt do that. You can be only born once of the flesh and once of the spirit. We must be born of the spirit and so become "Born again".
Jesus is the gate. If any man enter He will find a pasture. We have to enter through Him to that pasture today, it means the rebirth of being born again and finding God in spiritual level.

You can believe that salvation is of works if you want , its matter of interpreation. But the hebrew verse you gave to me doesnt talk about doing God's will in order to be saved, it just talks about reward which by God rewards us for serving Him. No mention of eternal life being the reward there.

You said that rom 8 speaks of suffering in order to earn salvation? I read from this verse and it doesnt appear so:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Paul was saying that we maybe joint heirs which is more than just heirs and children if we suffer with him so that we maybe glorified.

Again no mention of earning Heaven there.

And Paul had made it clear already that if you have spirit of Christ in you then you have no condemnation.
And again that we are children of God. But i know there are many christians like you Gary who think God could still throw His child to hell.
We are His children once born again, Born of the spirit. Were not mere flesh and blood anymore then but God's spirit dwells in His children.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[will]

Gary, I learn from your expositions, it's my chance to say thank you.

It is possible to believe and be evil (Acts 15:5). Judas was never repentant of his sin. We must remember that all of Jesus' disciples were evil (Matt 7:11) but only one was a devil (Jn 6:70). Judas had faith, he followed a homeless man who claimed to be the son of God around for 3 years. Judas did not have saving faith, true. He chose to betray Jesus and leave him...he became an apostate (Heb 6:4-6). This is possible for any Christian to do.

I don't agree with this though, because of this: If I can at any given time, by my own volition, leave Christ and back to my condemned state,
what then saved me in the first place?

Is it the work of Christ on the cross alone (therefore He is The Savior), or my faith?

Yes, of course we have to repent from our sins, first we do this after we realize that we are condemned souls and we need a savior (by hearing the Gospel and by the calling from the Holy Spirit). This enables us to receive salvation.

Secondly, we confess our sins after we are saved because we want to restore our fellowship with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Problem is, carnal (flesh oriented) Christians (as in the first century Corinthian church) don't even know what they are missing by living as if they are still of the world when they are have so much to gain living for God in the earnest.

So I think the proper motivation for us to grow spiritually is not the hanging axe of "losing your salvation" but the rewards both here on earth and in heaven that we will reap when we start acting like what we are, saved souls who has drunk from His life giving water.

All of you provide very stimulating conversation that requires me to meditate on what God has said and I love you for it. Have a wonderful evening.

Gary

Same to you!

 

[gdemoss]

Gary, I learn from your expositions, it's my chance to say thank you.

Your welcome Will, All praise, honor and glory be to God. I'll take credit for the mistakes.

I don't agree with this though, because of this: If I can at any given time, by my own volition, leave Christ and back to my condemned state,
what then saved me in the first place?

Is it the work of Christ on the cross alone (therefore He is The Savior), or my faith?

Great questions. It can be very difficult to understand. I once stood where you are asking the same valid questions. It depends on how you lay the foundation when looking at biblical salvation. One verse says by grace are ye saved through faith while another says that in like manner baptism now saves us. Then also we see prayer and the supply of the spirit of Jesus turning to one salvation. We understand that we have been saved past tense but also that we will receive salvation at the end of our faith. Then we have to deal with the whole Eternal Life issue. We are told that it is simply knowing God and Jesus Christ who he has sent. We are told that there are words of eternal life. We are told it is the gift of God through Jesus Christ. We are told to fight the good fight and lay hold on eternal life. We are told that God has promised to give us eternal life but yet that we have eternal life within us and that Jesus only grants eternal life to those that obey him. Put all of these things together with what is said about the place of works in a believers life and there you have it.

Yes, of course we have to repent from our sins, first we do this after we realize that we are condemned souls and we need a savior (by hearing the Gospel and by the calling from the Holy Spirit). This enables us to receive salvation.

Have you ever considered that hearing the Gospel and calling from the Holy Spirit could be one and the same? That the Holy Spirit speaks through the believer who is giving the Gospel? Consider Peter on Pentecost or Stephen before being stoned. The Spirit speaking through these men.

I believe we have to repent which is turning toward God as we are the ones who are turned away from him. We confess our sins to receive forgiveness of those sins. This is not simply admitting we sinned or else Judas would be covered (I have betrayed innocent blood). To confess means to say the same thing as the one confession is being made to. It is admission of guilt + turning away from as in your heart you have come to believe that what you were doing was wrong (consider Paul in Philippians 3 and how he turned away from all that was gain to him).

Secondly, we confess our sins after we are saved because we want to restore our fellowship with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Problem is, carnal (flesh oriented) Christians (as in the first century Corinthian church) don't even know what they are missing by living as if they are still of the world when they are have so much to gain living for God in the earnest.

Confession is a voluntary response from obtaining understanding. Just as you state it. You came to understand that you did not have fellowship with God because of your sin and confessed to remove that separation and now enjoy the beauty of a life with Christ dwelling in you.

You are right. The people in Corinth had a serious problem of ignorance. Hence why Paul wrote unto them in such a threatening way (save some with fear). He loved them enough not to let them perish.

So I think the proper motivation for us to grow spiritually is not the hanging axe of "losing your salvation" but the rewards both here on earth and in heaven that we will reap when we start acting like what we are, saved souls who has drunk from His life giving water.

Brother I see your heart and it's good. And I agree with your point here. The proper motivation is seeing that Jesus is light and that becoming light like he is, is the most rewarding and gratifying thing one can do in this life or the next. You are like my friend Jim. You have tasted and have seen that the Lord is gracious. You cannot imagine anything that could ever come between you and Christ, as it should be. But my warning to you is: Do not neglect the clear warnings in scripture that you and I can walk away from Christ voluntarily. But instead study those very passages and arm yourself with the necessary tools to avoid falling into the pit.

Consider Hebrews chapters 3 & 4 as well as 2 Peter chapter 1 for starters. We are given instruction about how to avoid falling but instead be given entrance into the kingdom. The whole New Testament is peppered with various scriptures that warn against various things that will end in condemnation.

Just keep in mind what Jesus said "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil". The condemnation in judgement will be based on deeds for everyone. The believer loves the light and becomes the light and walks in the light and therefore there is no condemnation in him.

Peace and goodwill to you brother,

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary, i think if you want to see things the way you see its entirely possible because everything can be interpreted to say what you say from the bible but I do believe if we take bible literally and make no assumptions then this "loose your salvation if your not doing God's will" find no room whatsoever from the Bible.

Hi Jari, hope your having a great day. You accuse me of misinterpreting the bible by not taking it literally. This is a serious charge. You accuse me of making assumptions to create my doctrine. Another serious charge.

I hope still even you would not agree with me that you'd understand my point of view and admitted that there's nothing in bible that contradicts what I say now...

I understand you point of view Jari. I used to believe as you do.

Born again is rebirth. Doing God's will doesnt make us born again. I did say something about this already but you just said I wont understand your defintion of born again. But let me put it this way. Doing God's will makes you as much as born again as going work place makes you born as baby again. It doesnt do that. You can be only born once of the flesh and once of the spirit. We must be born of the spirit and so become "Born again".
Jesus is the gate. If any man enter He will find a pasture. We have to enter through Him to that pasture today, it means the rebirth of being born again and finding God in spiritual level.

I agree Jari, doing Gods will does not make us born again. I have simply held to the point of what the bible says being born again is. Hearing the Word of God and believing it. The carnal mind is enmity against God. The Word of God is spirit and can only be spiritually discerned. Those who are spiritually dead and not quickened by the Word of God hear the words but their understanding is unfruitful.

You can believe that salvation is of works if you want , its matter of interpreation. But the hebrew verse you gave to me doesnt talk about doing God's will in order to be saved, it just talks about reward which by God rewards us for serving Him. No mention of eternal life being the reward there.

You have again accused me. Where have I said that you can work your way to heaven? I have said that your works cannot get you into heaven. It is too late for that as you have already blown it. I have said, however, that your works can keep you out of Heaven. Do you disagree? If so, can I be a drunkard and go to heaven?

You said that rom 8 speaks of suffering in order to earn salvation? I read from this verse and it doesnt appear so:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Thank you for putting it in the form of a question. No. I did not say anything about earning salvation. Those are your words. I said the verse is conditional and uses 'if' to point out that we 'must' suffer with him in order to be glorified together. I know it is difficult to understand. It took me a long time to get it myself. Doing what God tells you that your supposed to do is not 'earning' your salvation. Instead, it is being 'obedient' to God which is also necessary to receive eternal life (Heb 5:9).

Paul was saying that we maybe joint heirs which is more than just heirs and children if we suffer with him so that we maybe glorified.

Again no mention of earning Heaven there.

Your the only one mentioning earning heaven.

And Paul had made it clear already that if you have spirit of Christ in you then you have no condemnation.
And again that we are children of God. But i know there are many christians like you Gary who think God could still throw His child to hell.
We are His children once born again, Born of the spirit. Were not mere flesh and blood anymore then but God's spirit dwells in His children.

I only believe what the bible says. It says that one who is the temple of the living god who defiles said temple will be destroyed. You say that we who have the Holy Spirit are his children. God says don't defile the temple or I will destroy you child. Why is this so incredible for you to believe. For if God spared not his only begotten son but delivered him up for our offenses, why is it that you can't believe that he would destroy one who tramples underfoot the Son of God?

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:1 is conditional. You must walk (read works) after the spirit. If you, as a christian believer, walk after the flesh you will die. The wages of sin is death.

Rom 8:9 is within the context of 8:1 and must be understood in that same light. Paul already said you must 'walk' or 'do all of your works' in the spirit. You pointed out that we are not longer just flesh and blood, Jari. We are no longer 'just' flesh and blood but rather a duality of flesh and spirit that war after each other. We 'must' walk in the spirit or there is condemnation in us.

I am willing to work with you to try and help you understand how the spirit has shown me this all works. Please tone down the accusations and think of questions you can ask instead. If you think I am wrong and that has been obvious then think of a question you can ask that will show me the error of my way like..."Adam, where are you?" or "Who told thee that thou was't naked?". I suppose if you truly feel that you are absolutely right and have no need to seek any other truth then go ahead and say "You err not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God".

Either way, have a good day christian

Gary

 

[brakelite]

Gary, I would like to commend you on the way you are patiently answering to the many challenges that are coming your way. I agree with you in your stance. We cannot earn our way to heaven. Yet like I mentioned in my previous post, we are judged by our works, whether they be good or bad, and our eternal destiny depends on this judgement.

Paul's letter to the Galatians is a fascinating epistle. The letter to the Galatians had begun the spiritual life of Martin Luther, whose writings sparked a revival in Britain through the teachings of Wesley. Possibly the oldest of any Christian document, Galatians deals with some very deep questions and issues that impinge directly on salvation.
Issues such as freedom, the role of the law in salvation, our condition in Christ, the nature of the Spirit led life, as well as the age old question: how can sinful humans be made right before a holy and just God? It also deals with the issue of 'once saved always saved'.
How so? The Galatian church was established by Paul. They started out right.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The Galatians received the gospel of grace at the hands of Paul. He testified of this in several places. The Galatians however, who in the beginning had a solid faith in the saving work of Christ, had fallen into a state of pure legalism.

Gal 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul is saying that at one stage they had received the Holy Spirit....

Gal.3: 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

....and that through faith miracles had been worked among them. Shortly afterwards however Judaisers had entered the flock and demanded that they, Gentile converts, needed to be circumcised. Paul met this challenge to the true gospel with all the power he could muster. Why? Because the Galatians had shifted their focus away from Christ towards themselves.The faith that they started out with which rested solely upon the redeeming blood of the Saviour, had now shifted away from Christ and was resting upon a works based act of circumcision. Why did Paul view this as being so dangerous? Four reasons.

1. The first consequence of trying to earn God's favour by submitting to circumcision is that it obligates the person to keep the entire law. If one desires to live according to the law, ha cannot pick and choose which laws or precepts he wants to follow.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

2. The second consequence is that they are cut off from Christ. A decision to be justified by works involves at the same time a rejection of God's way of justification in Christ.
John Stott put it this way:
"You cannot have it both ways. It is impossible to receive Christ, thereby acknowledging that you cannot save yourself, and then receive circumcision, thereby claiming you can."
Paul reinforces this in several places.

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.....
....4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

3. Circumcision hinders spiritual growth. That word translated hinder (verse 7) has military connotations such as a tank trap or blown bridge. It completely halts any advance of the of the army, or in this case, the church.

4. Circumcision completely removes the offense of the cross. It implies that you can save yourself, and is thus flattering to human pride. The cross however is offensive to human pride, because through it we are dependant utterly on Christ and Him crucified.

The Galatians had fallen into apostasy. They had voluntarily switched allegiance from Christ to their own works of the law.
The entire letter is a theological and personal appeal to the Galatians to return to the gospel first preached to them by Paul. The letter details the contradistinction between righteousness by faith, and righteousness by works of the law. They are incompatible, the former being salvation by grace, the latter being not salvation at all. The Galatians had started out trusting in the former, but had now fallen from grace, backslid, and lost their salvation by trusting in the latter.
Hence Paul's sharp rebuke.

 

[RJ]

Hi Jari, hope your having a great day. You accuse me of misinterpreting the bible by not taking it literally. This is a serious charge. You accuse me of making assumptions to create my doctrine. Another serious charge.



I understand you point of view Jari. I used to believe as you do.





I agree Jari, doing Gods will does not make us born again. I have simply held to the point of what the bible says being born again is. Hearing the Word of God and believing it. The carnal mind is enmity against God. The Word of God is spirit and can only be spiritually discerned. Those who are spiritually dead and not quickened by the Word of God hear the words but their understanding is unfruitful.



You have again accused me. Where have I said that you can work your way to heaven? I have said that your works cannot get you into heaven. It is too late for that as you have already blown it. I have said, however, that your works can keep you out of Heaven. Do you disagree? If so, can I be a drunkard and go to heaven?



Thank you for putting it in the form of a question. No. I did not say anything about earning salvation. Those are your words. I said the verse is conditional and uses 'if' to point out that we 'must' suffer with him in order to be glorified together. I know it is difficult to understand. It took me a long time to get it myself. Doing what God tells you that your supposed to do is not 'earning' your salvation. Instead, it is being 'obedient' to God which is also necessary to receive eternal life (Heb 5:9).



Your the only one mentioning earning heaven.



I only believe what the bible says. It says that one who is the temple of the living god who defiles said temple will be destroyed. You say that we who have the Holy Spirit are his children. God says don't defile the temple or I will destroy you child. Why is this so incredible for you to believe. For if God spared not his only begotten son but delivered him up for our offenses, why is it that you can't believe that he would destroy one who tramples underfoot the Son of God?



Rom 8:1 is conditional. You must walk (read works) after the spirit. If you, as a christian believer, walk after the flesh you will die. The wages of sin is death.

Rom 8:9 is within the context of 8:1 and must be understood in that same light. Paul already said you must 'walk' or 'do all of your works' in the spirit. You pointed out that we are not longer just flesh and blood, Jari. We are no longer 'just' flesh and blood but rather a duality of flesh and spirit that war after each other. We 'must' walk in the spirit or there is condemnation in us.

I am willing to work with you to try and help you understand how the spirit has shown me this all works. Please tone down the accusations and think of questions you can ask instead. If you think I am wrong and that has been obvious then think of a question you can ask that will show me the error of my way like..."Adam, where are you?" or "Who told thee that thou was't naked?". I suppose if you truly feel that you are absolutely right and have no need to seek any other truth then go ahead and say "You err not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God".

Either way, have a good day christian

Gary

I only believe what the bible says. It says that one who is the temple of the living god who defiles said temple will be destroyed. You say that we who have the Holy Spirit are his children. God says don't defile the temple or I will destroy you child.

Could you please provide the scripture for what you say above? Thank you.