Lazarus and the Rich man...

[Sue D.]

I just looked up DRB as that is the version you compared the verse in the KJV with / a CRB was listed but not the DRB. The difference in those two verses was 'repent compared to do penance' -- we know that 'repent' is correct.

We have God's Word as it was inspired / given to us by the Holy Spirit directing the holy men of God as they were directed to write. And/ or handed Dow by oral tradition. The two Greek philosophers you mentioned were not inspired by God in their writing .
Btw. It's not my thread. I saw it and started to respond back to it.

Will continue later

 

[Sue D.]

I'm back for a shirt time.

The English language has changed over the years. The KJV first have it's problems. I use the NKJ version.

Baptism is important, yes. But not an essential for salvation -+ all the examples of baptism in new testament are done in a body of water. Any more than speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation having taken place in a person or an essential.

 

[Rhema]

we know that 'repent' is correct.

How do you know ?? Are you now charging the Catholic Church with purposeful mistranslation ??

Or would it be more likely that the Protestant aversion to all things Catholics would slant the translation away from the act of Penance ??

I just looked up DRB as that is the version you compared the verse in the KJV with / a CRB was listed but not the DRB.

DRB (sorry, I thought you better acquainted) .. Douay Rheims Bible.

Douay–Rheims Bible - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We have God's Word as it was inspired / given to us by the Holy Spirit directing the holy men of God as they were directed to write.

I'm sure you believe that, just as the Church of the East started by the Apostle Thomas believes otherwise - here is their (our) New Testament. (Please note the table of contents.)

TheAramaicScriptures.com

The Holy Aramaic Scriptures: With a literal English translation and transliteration of The Eastern Peshitta New Testament Text, such as given in The Khabouris Codex.

www.thearamaicscriptures.com

Please, I quite understand that this forum seems to forbid discussions about the development of the Bible, but I'm not here to cast aspersions on your canon, just to ask that each believer actually learns about where such canon came from, and that there are other believers who hold a different canon. I can respect your position, Sue, but can you respect (and understand) mine?

The two Greek philosophers you mentioned were not inspired by God in their writing .

That's an irrelevant point. The two Greek authors I mentioned wrote in a different dialect, and the King James Translators did NOT know the Koine dialect of Greek - they used Attic rules of grammar. The KJV translations did NOT understand certain nuances of the New Testament Koine dialect. They made mistakes. It's not hard to understand.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I'm back for a shirt time.

The English language has changed over the years.

Indeed, it would seem they changed the definition of shirt too.

Baptism is important, yes. But not an essential for salvation

And yet I provided four verse that directly say otherwise. You just brush them off.

Noted.

all the examples of baptism in new testament are done in a body of water

Except for what John the Baptizer said.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:​

(Matthew 3:11 KJV)​

​

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:​

(Luke 3:16 KJV)​

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.​

(Acts 2:3-4 KJV)​

No water here. So you might wish to revise your position.

Rhema

Any more than speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation having taken place in a person or an essential.

I think you'll be very surprised when you find out you're wrong.

 

[Sue D.]

Rhema -- and why would I be familiar with the RCC Bible.

You have a lot of information that you believe to be totally accurate.

I truly hope that at some point you'll go from a lot of "head knowledge" to letting God's Word get into your heart.

There is a book that I got some tw ago that explains where the Bible comes from. It's still packed away , but I suspect that same info can be found on-line.

You Do seem determined to tear down the integrity of scripture.

As far as you're concerned , your knowledgeeans that you're correct in everything you say. But you sound like you don't have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Especially because you asked about the Lord's Prayer being sufficient to pray to receive salvation. Praying the Lord's Prayer has never brought about salvation.

Go back to the 1 Corinthians 15 :1-3. It specifically states 'to o be saved'. And the Romans 10: 9-10 passage. Believing in your heart and confessing into salvation.

I'm hoping to see you in heaven at some point.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema -- and why would I be familiar with the RCC Bible.

You have a lot of information that you believe to be totally accurate.

Whereas you don't seem to be familiar with anything. (See again the definition of insular.)

I truly hope that at some point you'll go from a lot of "head knowledge" to letting God's Word get into your heart.

And who are you to judge that it has not? Just because I'm holding you to a higher standard of understanding in this conversation since you're running around thinking yourself to know it all, preaching "truth" to everyone ??

I'm asking questions. It would seem you don't have answers (just unfounded opinions).

There is a book that I got some (time) ago that explains where the Bible comes from. It's still packed away , but I suspect that same info can be found on-line.

No need. The book is right here at my right hand.

The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development and Significance

Is the canon still open? Which form of a text is canonical? Is the canon a collection of authoritative books or an authoritative collection? Dr. Bruce Metzger, tackles these questions, discusses the pressures that led to the fixing of the canon, and gives detailed attention to both Western and...

www.christianbook.com

Every committed "Bible Believing" Christian should know the history of the thing they profess to believe. It's to their shame that they don't.

But you sound like you don't have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

This is a typical of the ignorant - accusing the brethren. (Think about it.)

Especially because you asked about the Lord's Prayer being sufficient to pray to receive salvation. Praying the Lord's Prayer has never brought about salvation.

And right there is an ignorance beyond belief. Of course Repenting to the Father through prayer brings about Salvation. Why have you lost your first love?

Why would you demean the prayer that Jesus himself gave you?

Go back to the 1 Corinthians 15 :1-3.

Jesus never wrote 1 Corinthians.

Paul pushes "his gospel" like a used car salesman. But why would it be any different from the gospel that Jesus preached? If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel IS what Jesus preached. Even Paul said this at the beginning of his ministry -

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:​

(Acts 13:38 KJV)​

And the forgiveness of sins is taught in the Lord's Prayer (no other teaching needs to be added).

I'm hoping to see you in heaven at some point.

And BOOM there it is... the threat: (You're not going to heaven.) Why do you Christians always need to threaten other people with FEAR ??

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

(1 John 4:18 KJV)​

Your church has done you a disservice, ma'am.

Rhema

Especially because you asked about the Lord's Prayer ...

I didn't ask because I didn't know. I asked to see if you knew or not. (You didn't.)

 

[Sue D.]

Rhema -- whoever you are-- I see no reason to continue with this conversation.

The Holy Spirit told Paul what to write.

You have a very demeaning attitude towards me and my knowledge.

John 14:6. Jesus Christ is telling us that He is the way, the truth and the life -- no one comes to the Father but by Me.

He chose to use Godly men such as Paul to give us His word.

There's really no reason to continue this.

 

[Bug]

Rhema -- whoever you are-- I see no reason to continue with this conversation.

The Holy Spirit told Paul what to write.

You have a very demeaning attitude towards me and my knowledge.

John 14:6. Jesus Christ is telling us that He is the way, the truth and the life -- no one comes to the Father but by Me.

He chose to use Godly men such as Paul to give us His word.

There's really no reason to continue this.

why are we all fighting...

 

[Sue D.]

@Bug -- feel free to offer your comments about the subject of the thread
New thoughts are fine.

 

[Bug]

@Bug -- feel free to offer your comments about the subject of the thread
New thoughts are fine.

Okay

 

[Rhema]

The Holy Spirit told Paul what to write.

Said Paul. (And you.) But don't you think the following two verses stand in stark contrast? So how you explain the contradiction?

Jesus directly commanded the 12 to Baptize:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

(Matthew 28:18-20 KJV)​

And yet Paul said that Jesus told him something different.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.​

(1 Corinthians 1:17 KJV)​

I see no reason to continue with this conversation.

Okay.. cut and run. I was hoping you'd have some insight.

You have a very demeaning attitude towards me and my knowledge.

Well, ma'am, I haven't seen any, at least nothing that would apply to the topics we've been discussing. And as I've mentioned on a number of occasions, I'm not here for tea and crumpets.

John 14:6. Jesus Christ is telling us that He is the way, the truth and the life -- no one comes to the Father but by Me.

YES INDEED... So then what did Jesus preach? And why would Jesus contradict himself, commanding 11 apostles to baptize, yet supposedly telling one to not baptize?

If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached.

Can we at least agree on that ??

He chose to use Godly men such as Paul to give us His word.

I'm not sure that one can call a murderer "Godly." Didn't Jesus give sight to the blind? So why would Jesus then go and blind people?

And did Jesus make a mistake in choosing the Twelve to give us His word ??

There's really no reason to continue this.

I am truly sorry that our discussion has caused you discomfort. (Where shall I send the crumpets ??)

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

why are we all fighting...

To be honest, I'm not quite sure, but I do know that most people would rather feel good than think through troubling questions.

Kindly,
Rhema

(Actually, it has to do with Martin Luther - the way he redefined the manner of obtaining salvation.)

 

[Garee]

Jesus never wrote 1 Corinthians.

Paul pushes "his gospel" like a used car salesman. But why would it be any different from the gospel that Jesus preached? If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel IS what Jesus preached. Even Paul said this at the beginning of his ministry -

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sinsActs 13:38 KJV)
And the forgiveness of sins is taught in the Lord's Prayer (no other teaching needs to be added).

Through all the apostles as prophets it is preached as forgiveness . Not just through one of the brethren The son of man Jesus .

Remember no power is attributed to the flesh .Jesus said of His own it profits for zero

One plants the incorruptible seed another waters it with the doctrines of God that fall from the sky like rain but if Christ not seen (the Holy Spirit of God does not empowered them there will be no change .

That the gospel Paul taught being moved by the born again Spirit of Christ is the same gospel that worked in the Son of man,Jesus.

 

[Beetow]

• Mark 4:34 . . But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were
alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Because of that verse, number of folk are under the impression that Luke 16:19-31
is a parable, i.e. fiction rather than fact.

Well; I would've liked to been on hand when Jesus expounded his defense for
quoting Abraham saying things that he didn't really say; which in my judicious
estimation is especially despicable due to the fact that Abraham is one of God's
buddies. (Isa 41:8)

All I'm saying is: if we can't trust Jesus to tell the truth about his Father's friends,
then how are we supposed to trust him to tell the truth about one of us?

This is a serious question because Jesus is the one and only mediator in Heaven
between God and Man. Well; I for one don't want someone unfaithful to me
speaking on my behalf before the throne of God.

One other point: nothing Jesus taught originated with him.

• John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which
I have heard of Him.

• John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the
Father taught me.

• John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He
gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

• John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent
me.

• John 3:34-35 . .He is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's spirit is upon
him without measure or limit.

• Heb 1:1-2 . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at
many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His
son

I cannot imagine someone as famous for honesty and integrity as God directing His
own son to tell us things about people that aren't true; especially about His friends.

• John 17:3 . . You . . the only truthful God

• Heb 6:18 . . it is impossible for God to lie

If God really is as reliable as the Bible presents Him; then I should think it
completely safe to assume that all of Jesus' parables, every one of them, from the
shortest to the longest, are 100% true stories.

As for Abraham; he was a prophet, i.e. an inspired man (Gen 20:7). As such, he
would be privy to information that would normally be unavailable to John Que
and Jane Doe pew warmer. Abraham was also a teacher/mentor. (Gen 18:19)

So then, I think it's fairly safe to assume the information that Abraham passed on
to the rich man came to Abraham via inspiration; which, if so, means that our
reaction to his remarks should be very different than the rich man's. He brushed
aside what Abraham told him; but we, I should hope, are wiser than that impious
dunce because we know that a prophet's teachings are the voice of God.
_

 

[Garee]

• Mark 4:34 . . But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were
alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Because of that verse, number of folk are under the impression that Luke 16:19-31
is a parable, i.e. fiction rather than fact.

Well; I would've liked to been on hand when Jesus expounded his defense for
quoting Abraham saying things that he didn't really say; which in my judicious
estimation is especially despicable due to the fact that Abraham is one of God's
buddies. (Isa 41:8)

We must be careful how or say we hear what the Holy Spirt is saying to the churches (us)

Beginning in chapter 15 thru 16 The subject of the continuing parable to help us to understand no man can could serve two good teaching masters as one Lord

The whole subject matter comparing the teaching ministry of God as wisdom from above, to mammon worldly earthly wisdom.

Proverb as parable informs us to buy the truth of the gospel and not sell it of as the wisdom of men (mammon. And with it get God's understanding


Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.


The first series of parables using the things that can be purchased with mammon (wordly wisdom)

Luke 15: 4-5 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

or another continuing parable comparing the two kinds of wisdoms

Luke 15:11-14 And he said, A certain man had two sons: And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

Then chapter 16 continuing under the parable "no man can serve two infallible teaching master as one unseen Lord "


Luke 16;1-2 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

Then we get to the meat of the parable no man k can seek the dead for the liiving .therei is a great cham between where one can ot go or come .

Luke 16: 13-16 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

To the law and the prophets All things written in the law and the prophets the testimony to the unseen law (sola scriptura)

Luke 16: 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Refusing to hear and do the will of the unseen Holy Father again the person exposes their false hope of communing with the dead relatives (like patron saints 3500 and rising )

Luke 16: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham (signified as our father the father of many nations) saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.. . . .( sola scriptura)

Again refusing to believe and again the declaration, as it is written ) Moses and the prophets)

Luke 16: 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, (necromancy) they will repent.

The third time informing us even if they did witness one raise from the dead they still reject sola scriptura as the one good teacher master .

Cant walk by sight after the dead and by faith after our living God

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Jesus the Son of man

 

[Sue D.]

@Rhema -- in one of your posts , you said you're not hear for tea and crumpets. I'm not a tea drinker. And you can send your crumpets anywhere you want to. I'm for uplifting God's Word not trying to discredit it all the time. So enjoy your tea and crumpets.

 

[Sue D.]

Rhema. You've shown no real interest in my insights. So I'm not going to continue,

 

[Rhema]

@Rhema -- in one of your posts , you said you're not hear for tea and crumpets. I'm not a tea drinker.

You know what I mean. Playing dumb doesn't become you.

And you can send your crumpets anywhere you want to.

And you accuse me of "attitude"?

My statement was an olive branch. You chose to interpret it as hate. That says a lot.

I'm for uplifting God's Word not trying to discredit it all the time.

Sue ... you don't know what God's Word is. You've been lied to. If you do know, then what are the two "God's Word"(s) ??

Rhema. You've shown no real interest in my insights.

And again, I haven't seen any insights.

So I'm not going to continue,

You keep saying this. And yet you keep posting.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I cannot imagine someone as famous for honesty and integrity as God directing His
own son to tell us things about people that aren't true; especially about His friends.

Can you imagine the difference between an historical / scientific truth and a spiritual truth?
Are you trying to claim that a spiritual truth isn't true?

Remember, Luke never met Jesus. He collected stories from others who said they did.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

If God really is as reliable as the Bible presents Him;

Did you ever count the generations ??

So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.​

(Matthew 1:17 KJV)​

(It's a simple question.)

Rhema