Lazarus and the Rich man...

[Garee]

baptidzo - LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for βαπτίζω
A. dip, plunge, to be drenched,

2. draw wine by dipping the cup in the bowl,​

Cambridge Greek Lexicon (no online support available)

Cambridge Greek Lexicon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

baptidzo -

1) plunge (toss a person into a pond)​

2) sink (a ship in battle)​

3) get wet (in the sea)​

4) (of Bacchus) plunge (into sleep; into drunkenness)​

a - Be soaked (with wine)​

b - Immersed (as in deep within an argument, or awash in debt)​

5) wash ritually (before a meal) New Testament.​

6) "baptize" - a religious ritual whereby water is used on people to get wet​

a) representative of having sin washed away​

b) metaphorically of fire or the Holy Spirit washing over people.​

​

At this point, one may be only able to resolve this issue by referring to the documents and practices of the early Church Fathers.

Look, Sue, if you just want to argue, go bother somebody else. The language does not support your premise, nor is the process actually described in the NT.

Rhema

How is it described in the old testament? Did it change?

 

[Rhema]

All of my life --

And were you to have lived in the year 1492 ?? 1156 ?? 367 (the first year a 27 book NT list was published) ?? And what of during the time of Jesus ??

-- according to what scripture teaches us.

According to what you were told scripture says. As @Hitch asked, where in the New Testament is immersion described? It isn't. Plain and simple. The scripture just says BATPIDZO - please refer to previously published definitions given by credible lexicons. Thank you.

Rhema

All of my life --

So you think that would also be a valid excuse for a Presbyterian? And why do you think so little of Presbyterians to believe that they ignore scripture or do you think that they're just too stupid to have figured it out?

Baptists and Presbyterians: Why We Disagree

The New Testament contains no “magic bullet” verse to abolish one side or the other in this debate, although both sides sometimes act as if it does. The New Testament does not say, “You shall baptize the infant children of believers when they are 8 days old, just as Abraham had them baptized...

theaquilareport.com

There are billions of people who have been wrong.... all of their life.

 

[Rhema]

And that is all I have to say. Following God's Word.

Sue, truth be told, the Bible defines what God's Word is, and nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Bible is God's Word. As a matter of fact, there are two of them (God's Word), and the Bible defines each quite clearly. When one has the wrong definition for God's Word, then just how could one know what God's Word truly is?

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

How is it described in the old testament? Did it change?

(Garee, please don't make me regret actually answering you, or I'll truly have to use the ignore feature.)

And just where do you think BAPTIDZO is described in the Old Testament? I only know of two places.

Rhema

 

[Sue D.]

Sue, truth be told, the Bible defines what God's Word is, and nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Bible is God's Word. As a matter of fact, there are two of them (God's Word), and the Bible defines each quite clearly. When one has the wrong definition for God's Word, then just how could one know what God's Word truly is?

Thanks,
Rhema

Rhema -- I'm finished with this conversation.

 

[Rookster]

Friends this story is not a parable. Jesus did not use names of real people in parables. We know Lazarus was a real man. This story is true. Human souls go to the 3rd heaven where heaven and hell are located. They are separated by a huge chasm type river barrier but in one area the people can see each other. The communication is telepathic. This barrier is called 'Styx'. We learn this in the Book of Enoch, who of which was Noah's grandfather, and Enoch was 7th from Adam.

And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that they who would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.’
Luke 16:26

This was a true story and the Rich man is still burning today...

You are correct

 

[Garee]

(Garee, please don't make me regret actually answering you, or I'll truly have to use the ignore feature.)

And just where do you think BAPTIDZO is described in the Old Testament? I only know of two places.

Rhema

Thanks for the reply..

The introduction or foundation to the priesthood beginning with Aaron two sons. After getting wet they failed the requirement of the ceremonial law .Tried to make it more than a shadow of the unseen law by adding their own personal self edifying touch .

Baptism is not a sign gift . I did it, it proves a person has the Holy Spirit .No different then the tongues idea (Charismatics) We walk or understand by the faith the unseen not by sight of water or sounds we can make .

 

[Rhema]

Rhema -- I'm finished with this conversation.

Of course you are ....
People do this when they realize they're wrong and just can't stand having a brutally honest and open discussion.
Or if their faith is just too fragile.

Rhema -- I'm finished with this conversation.

And would you say that to God ??
Most people say that to God.

Be blessed Sue,
Rhema

But I wish you would read the article for which I provided you the link.
Good luck with thinking you're better than the Presbyterians.

 

[Rhema]

After getting wet ...

What ??

Garee... is it ever possible for you to post scripture verses ??

Rhema

The word "wet" is found once in Job and five times in Daniel. No Aaron around in either passage.

 

[Sue D.]

Rhema -- it's so reasuring that you're the only one with the correct knowledge/ interpretation of everything.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema -- it's so reasuring that you're the only one with the correct knowledge/ interpretation of everything.

Rheba your sarcasm isn't needed.

I had asked you (several times now) about the Baptists with which you associate:

Most all Baptists I know in this area (of PA) believe that only Baptists have the truth about salvation and will go to heaven.

And you've given me no reason to believe that you are not of the same type as these.

Did you even read the link about Baptists and Presbyterians? It's a well written article and should get any reasonable Christian to reconsider their disdain for Presbyterians. For ease, I'll post it again:

Baptists and Presbyterians: Why We Disagree

The New Testament contains no “magic bullet” verse to abolish one side or the other in this debate, although both sides sometimes act as if it does. The New Testament does not say, “You shall baptize the infant children of believers when they are 8 days old, just as Abraham had them baptized...

theaquilareport.com

- The New Testament does not say, “You shall baptize the infant children of believers when they are 8 days old, just as Abraham had them baptized when they were 8 days old.” Nor does it say, “The infant children of believers must not receive the sign of baptism until they make a credible profession of faith.” Those verses simply do not exist. Biblically, this issue of baptizing the infant children of believers remains difficult, even upon close examination, and that is why good Bible teachers remain divided by it.​

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Sue D.]

Actually it's circumcision that takes place on the 8th day of the infants life.

I have no distain for Presbyterians. And I've already shares as to why my parents changed from the one to the other group. The bible teaches baptism by immersion. There are no instances of sprinkling bring done for infants.

A person needs to be old enough -- have the capacity to understand right from wrong. Has the person ever sinned? A baby has no concept of sin. A baby does not have speech yet. Only communication is by crying or cooing.

A child of five or six is sometimes able to understand that they have done something wrong and feel sorry for it. And can understand who Jesus Christ is and that he died on the cross for their Sona d rose again on the third day.

Parents are encouraged to read the Bible with their kids and pray with them every day as part of what the family does together. They learn about the spiritual part of life. And as they are taken to Sunday school and church , they continue to learn with others of their age and with adults in the church services. It's hopes that at some point that child or young person or adult will cale to realize that need in their life and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. And then -, to show others the decision that has been made in their heart, - they will feel led to be baptized by immersion by the pastor of the church.

The pastor will ask the person if they have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and to live a Christ-like life . They will respond back , yes. And the pastor will proceed to baptize the person.

So -- I hope that this answers yoor question. And I did not specify a particular religion.

I went to Bible college in Pa and in Iowa and have lived in Texas and now Missouri and also in Tacoma , WA for a while. There are Baptist churches all over the place. As well as every other church belief system. As long as the particular church teaches to hat Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that salvation is through the shed blood of Christ and nothing else. And that no good work done by us is needed for our salvation to be complete.

 

[Sue D.]

Rhema-- I've responded back in post #172.

 

[Rhema]

Actually it's circumcision that takes place on the 8th day of the infants life.

I see you didn't read the article.

Presbyterians believe that the rite of Baptism replaces Circumcision.

I have no distain for Presbyterians.

The bible teaches baptism by immersion.

No it doesn't. The word IMMERSION cannot be found. It's the interpretation (and PURE interpretation at that) of your church to say that BAPTIDZO means immersion.

There are no instances of sprinkling bring done for infants.

And there are no instances of water IMMERSION either. If there were, you would have posted one for @Hitch ... pages ago.

The only rational conclusion is this:

At this point, one may be only able to resolve this issue by referring to the documents and practices of the early Church Fathers.

But I see you merely wish to dig in your heels.

Godspeed,
Rhema

 

[Sue D.]

Actually it's circumcision that takes place on the 8th day of the infants life.

I have no distain for Presbyterians. And I've already shares as to why my parents changed from the one to the other group. The bible teaches baptism by immersion. There are no instances of sprinkling bring done for infants.

A person needs to be old enough -- have the capacity to understand right from wrong. Has the person ever sinned? A baby has no concept of sin. A baby does not have speech yet. Only communication is by crying or cooing.

A child of five or six is sometimes able to understand that they have done something wrong and feel sorry for it. And can understand who Jesus Christ is and that he died on the cross for their Sona d rose again on the third day.

Parents are encouraged to read the Bible with their kids and pray with them every day as part of what the family does together. They learn about the spiritual part of life. And as they are taken to Sunday school and church , they continue to learn with others of their age and with adults in the church services. It's hopes that at some point that child or young person or adult will cale to realize that need in their life and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. And then -, to show others the decision that has been made in their heart, - they will feel led to be baptized by immersion by the pastor of the church.

The pastor will ask the person if they have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and to live a Christ-like life . They will respond back , yes. And the pastor will proceed to baptize the person.

So -- I hope that this answers yoor question. And I did not specify a particular religion.

I went to Bible college in Pa and in Iowa and have lived in Texas and now Missouri and also in Tacoma , WA for a while. There are Baptist churches all over the place. As well as every other church belief system. As long as the particular church teaches to hat Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that salvation is through the shed blood of Christ and nothing else. And that no good work done by us is needed for our salvation to be complete.

Rhema. --. This is post # 172. Please read it.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema. --. This is post # 172. Please read it.

???

And just what do you think I quoted if I hadn't read it ??

Please read post #174 then ...

Presbyterians believe that the rite of Baptism replaces Circumcision.

You'll have to argue with them.

So -- I hope that this answers yoor question. And I did not specify a particular religion.

Did you need to? It's obviously Baptist, as what you described is not found in the Methodist church or the Presbyterian church or the Lutheran church, the UCC, and certainly not the Episcopalians.

And it's also obvious that you don't believe Baptism saves a person, even though the New Testament directly states this.

Okay...
Rhema

 

[Sue D.]

Rhema. There us one verse in the new testament that Sounds like that is the case. Even though several other passages so not.

I base my beliefs on the Bible rather than being Baptist.

Feel free to continue this conversation with someone else.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema. There us one verse in the new testament that Sounds like that is the case.

Without even looking, I can tell you refer to 2 Tim. 3:16.
It is the most egregious and purposeful mistranslation I have ever encountered.

I base my beliefs on the Bible rather than being Baptist.

As such, you'd better make sure your translators know what they're doing.

Rhema

Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;​

(John 5:39 RV)​

 

[Sue D.]

Rhema--actually-- the verse I was referring to is Acts 2:38. Peter is speaking. So-- you're assumption was incorrect.

There is no question to me as to the accuracy of the translators who have been able to put God's Word into the English as well as lots of other languages.

 

[Rhema]

There is no question to me as to the accuracy of the translators

There should be...

Compare these two verses:

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

(Matthew 4:17 KJV)​

​

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

(Matthew 4:17 DRB)​

(Need I say more?)
.

Most Christians are probably aware that the New Testament texts were originally written (perhaps published is a better term) in Greek. But they are probably not aware that the New Testament does not read like Modern Greek, nor the ancient texts of the Greek philosophers and novelists (such as Plato and Homer). The dialect of Plato is called “classical” Greek (also Attic Greek), and only academic knowledge of Attic Greek was available to the King James translators. Since the advance of archeology in the very late 1800’s, we now know quite a bit more about the dialect of Greek in which the NT was written. This is called Koine (or common / colloquial) Greek. The NT, instead of being written for the scholar, was written for the common man, and I proffer this link for your perusal:

Differences Between Classical and Hellenistic Greek​

In addition:

“One man is to be given the credit for the discovery of the Koine – a German pastor named Adolf Deissmann. Even though one or two perceptive scholars had noted the true character of NT Greek as early as the middle of the nineteenth century, their statements made no impression on general opinion. Deissmann, on a visit to a friend in Marburg, found a volume of Greek papyri from Egypt, and leafing through this publication, he was struck by the similarity to the Greek of the NT. He followed up this observation with continued study, and his publications of his findings finally led to general acceptance of the position that the peculiarities of the Greek NT were, for the most part, to be explained by reference to the nonliterary Greek, the popular colloquial language of the period. He first published his results in two volumes of Bible Studies (1895, 1897) and later on in the justly popular Life from the Ancient East (1908).”​

- The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, pg. 486.​

Kind of makes you wonder why some Christians fight so fiercely for the KJV if the translators didn’t quite have a handle on the language in which it was written.

So-- you're assumption was incorrect.

HAHA Got me... (feeling pleased?) In that you hadn't provided a quote, I did indeed think you were speaking about something else.

actually-- the verse I was referring to is Acts 2:38. Peter is speaking.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

(Acts 2:38 KJV)​

But Peter is also speaking here:

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.​

(Acts 10:47-48 KJV)​

And here too - (no?) :

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:​

(1 Peter 3:21 KJV)​

And Peter even clarified that Baptidzo didn't mean "washing".

But who is speaking here ?? :

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

(Mark 16:16 KJV)​

Well, we've wandered quite a bit from your OP (but since this was your thread, I just followed your lead). You posted a polemic on how one is saved, yet omitted baptism from this. Now we have four verses that show baptism is required for salvation. How do you deal with that? Most Christians just ignore it, content to sit in their pew and play church. Still, though, we have no New Testament description of just how baptism was accomplished, and therefore the only conclusion that can be drawn is:

At this point, one may be only able to resolve this issue by referring to the documents and practices of the early Church Fathers.

Rhema