Lazarus and the Rich man...
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Beetow
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Some folks (especially Muslims) are unaware that although the Bible exists by means of
inspiration, for the most part it's not by means of dictation.
For example Muhammad is alleged to have received the Koran word-for-word from
the angel Gabriel-- the whole Koran --but the Bible's entirety wasn't compiled
that way.
Exactly why the author of Mathew's gospel included that rather odd generational
mind game I don't know; but if you're looking for a silver bullet with which to
invalidate the Bible; that one's pretty useful 'cause not all that many Christians are
adequately trained enough to deal with it.
_
The genealogy in Matthew is because God wants us to know it. Why would that invalidate the Bible. It gives the line that Mary came through giving birth to. Jesus Christ.
What would the average christian be 'dealing with' that supposedly we are not adequately trained to deal with.
What would the average christian be 'dealing with' that supposedly we are not adequately trained to deal with.
Luke did met Christ the infallible teaching master. The same as Saul who sought to literaly destroy the Son of man Jesus .The pagan foundation ."Out of sight out of mind" murder the misconceived competition ( flesh and blood) .
'Face to face" in the reveled knowledge of God as it is written. God is not a man as us . He does not have a literal face or form He is eternal Spirit without beginning of days or seen of Spirit life. A Spirit does not have flesh and bone .
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
face to face = faith to faith
Beetow
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Rhema didn't question Matthew's genealogy in post No.200. They questioned
his three generational divisions.
_
Rhema
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(Well they do have these yellow round things so you could let me see that smile
)Welll... I hope that was a smile and not a sneer.
First, it's rather embarrassing to admit, but it took me a long time (well over fifty years) until I finally learned that I couldn't trust anything that anybody ever said. For two reasons. I have never met anyone else who was as precise with language and details as I ... but I didn't know this. I had thought they were. Since I select words for exact meanings, I grew up thinking that everyone else did the same - that others say what they mean, and that they mean what they say. Well, apparently humans don't think that way. In other words, I cannot count on their words to be precise and accurate (two different concepts, btw) even if they repeat a telling of the same event. In addition, most all people just want to be entertained and love hearing and telling a riveting story, and so certain facts become "embellished" and made more "exciting" as an event is recounted. And certain words are changed to enhance the "fun." A purposeful "whisper down the alley." But I never did this and truly hadn't known that this is "normal" behavior for people. I now know that humans truly don't care about facts, but about feelings, and most Christians select a church based upon how it makes them feel. So now when I'm told something, I must ask myself, did such a thing happen? Were those the words that had actually been said? Likely not. And so I cannot trust anything that anybody ever says. This is why I cannot lie. I'd have an utter mental breakdown. Were I to lie, I'd never be able to trust my own mindscape, and upon that path lies madness.
So imagine my shock when I find out that the initial monographs of the New Testament (this "Word" of God) are available, even in their initial published language, when on numerous occasions I had been told for the first 14 years of my life that the "originals" no longer existed, having been lost to time. (And my adopted Grandfather was a beloved pastor.)
It took three years for my parents' church to realize that I was using the Greek texts of the New Testament and excommunicate me at the age of 17. Of course the "damage" was done by that time. I was using (and still do) this Bible:
It let's one compare three translations - obviously, the KJV and the NIV, along with the English words selected by Dr. Alfred Marshall. And when one learns the language, one can read what was actually written. They differ. And at times they differ dramatically, to the point where nearly the opposite meaning is conveyed.
Now when one reads the New Testament, one encounters the phrase "Word of God." (Let me go count.) Forty five (45) times in the New Testament you read this phrase the "word of god" and I condemn no one for thinking "word of god" means "word of god" each and every time one reads that phrase.
But what if you found out that the words were changed ?? That imprecise and misleading English words were used ??
Wouldn't that bother you ?? Shouldn't it ??
But maybe it doesn't matter to you, so I'll "cut to the chase."
When one reads the Greek text of the New Testament, one finds that "word of God" is the English phrase for "LOGOS of God" found in numerous places, but elsewhere "word of God" is actually written "RHEMA of God".
LOGOS and RHEMA are two different Greek words that have been translated into the same English word, fusing two separate concepts together, and the English reader cannot even see this !!
So when someone is talking to me about the "Word of God" are they speaking about the LOGOS of God ?? Or the RHEMA of God ?? And neither phrase means the Bible.
In essence what I have learned is that the Bible defines what the phrase "Word of God" means (both of them - the LOGOS of God and the RHEMA of God) and the Bible does not include itself in these definitions. So how can one truly know what the Bible says the Word of God is (either of them) when someone lied to you, saying the Bible is the Word of God ??
Rhema
@Rhema -- again why would that section of Matthew's genealogy discredit God's Word. We have it becsuse God inspired Matthew to write it. Vs17 there are 14generations and then another 14 and then another 14 . They start out with from Abraham to David.
You see a problem I don't. What problem do you see.
You see a problem I don't. What problem do you see.
(Well they do have these yellow round things so you could let me see that smile
Welll... I hope that was a smile and not a sneer.
First, it's rather embarrassing to admit, but it took me a long time (well over fifty years) until I finally learned that I couldn't trust anything that anybody ever said. For two reasons. I have never met anyone else who was as precise with language and details as I ... but I didn't know this. I had thought they were. Since I select words for exact meanings, I grew up thinking that everyone else did the same - that others say what they mean, and that they mean what they say. Well, apparently humans don't think that way. In other words, I cannot count on their words to be precise and accurate (two different concepts, btw) even if they repeat a telling of the same event. In addition, most all people just want to be entertained and love hearing and telling a riveting story, and so certain facts become "embellished" and made more "exciting" as an event is recounted. And certain words are changed to enhance the "fun." A purposeful "whisper down the alley." But I never did this and truly hadn't known that this is "normal" behavior for people. I now know that humans truly don't care about facts, but about feelings, and most Christians select a church based upon how it makes them feel. So now when I'm told something, I must ask myself, did such a thing happen? Were those the words that had actually been said? Likely not. And so I cannot trust anything that anybody ever says. This is why I cannot lie. I'd have an utter mental breakdown. Were I to lie, I'd never be able to trust my own mindscape, and upon that path lies madness.
So imagine my shock when I find out that the initial monographs of the New Testament (this "Word" of God) are available, even in their initial published language, when on numerous occasions I had been told for the first 14 years of my life that the "originals" no longer existed, having been lost to time. (And my adopted Grandfather was a beloved pastor.)
It took three years for my parents' church to realize that I was using the Greek texts of the New Testament and excommunicate me at the age of 17. Of course the "damage" was done by that time. I was using (and still do) this Bible:
It let's one compare three translations - obviously, the KJV and the NIV, along with the English words selected by Dr. Alfred Marshall. And when one learns the language, one can read what was actually written. They differ. And at times they differ dramatically, to the point where nearly the opposite meaning is conveyed.
Now when one reads the New Testament, one encounters the phrase "Word of God." (Let me go count.) Forty five (45) times in the New Testament you read this phrase the "word of god" and I condemn no one for thinking "word of god" means "word of god" each and every time one reads that phrase.
But what if you found out that the words were changed ?? That imprecise and misleading English words were used ??
Wouldn't that bother you ?? Shouldn't it ??
But maybe it doesn't matter to you, so I'll "cut to the chase."
When one reads the Greek text of the New Testament, one finds that "word of God" is the English phrase for "LOGOS of God" found in numerous places, but elsewhere "word of God" is actually written "RHEMA of God".
LOGOS and RHEMA are two different Greek words that have been translated into the same English word, fusing two separate concepts together, and the English reader cannot even see this !!
So when someone is talking to me about the "Word of God" are they speaking about the LOGOS of God ?? Or the RHEMA of God ?? And neither phrase means the Bible.
In essence what I have learned is that the Bible defines what the phrase "Word of God" means (both of them - the LOGOS of God and the RHEMA of God) and the Bible does not include itself in these definitions. So how can one truly know what the Bible says the Word of God is (either of them) when someone lied to you, saying the Bible is the Word of God ??
Rhema
I'm sorry you have such a distrust issue in life..it has really messed you up.
Translating from one language to another -- because of different alphabets there will be additional words to help the passage read smoothly. But none of it interferes with the message being given.
You used the terms "logos and rhema'. And you use Rhema as your name. Which would indicate that you feel you have the correct translation. And you don't trust "God's Word". To be the real *God's Word"
Do you trust the cross/ the shed blood of Jesus Christ to be sufficient for your salvation-- or do you feel a need to add something on your own.
MLK is a good guy
Beetow
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• Luke 16:24-25 . . He cried out and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and
send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue;
for I am in agony in this flame.
How did the rich man expect Lazarus to come near him with some water?
Did he take it for granted that the beggar would agree to sacrificing his own
personal safety?
To think there are actually people in this world who truly believe that the
underprivileged exist solely for their benefit; sort of like commodities.
_
send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue;
for I am in agony in this flame.
How did the rich man expect Lazarus to come near him with some water?
Did he take it for granted that the beggar would agree to sacrificing his own
personal safety?
To think there are actually people in this world who truly believe that the
underprivileged exist solely for their benefit; sort of like commodities.
_
Rhema
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Did you go back into the old testament and actually count the people, comparing the two lists ??
(You either have, or you haven't. It's a simple question. Why won't you answer it?)
Blind faith is the work of the devil.
Rhema
And if you mean BIble, then SAY BIBLE. Changing the definitions of words is also the work of the devil.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
(Isaiah 5:20 KJV)
We are seeing how much agony the rich man was in. After he'd experienced death. And once a person is dead, they stay where they are. That would especially be relavent to those finding themselves in hell. They realize that it's no joke but they can't get out. Sometimes rich people think they can buy their way out of trouble while here on earth. But find out that eternity is different.
Others have no compassion for the poor or beggars. Maybe there are those don't think poor people are not good enough to get into heaven. But a person's wealth or lack of has no bearing on their eternal home.
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I'm sorry you're a Baptist. That really messed you up.
But you've completely missed the point. I'm not messed up, and I'm much better off. Which would you prefer? Blindly trusting people and not knowing that most of what you're told is foolish nonsense ?? Or living within a sphere of health skepticism, knowing that the TRUTH of the matter is that y'all can't trust what people say ?? Ignorance is not bliss, it's oblivion. And I've chosen to not be oblivious.
I now have much better critical thinking skills than the average person who just takes everything at face value for "truth," and am better able to explain what I believe because I learn things for myself instead of just sitting in a pew believing all the babble that comes out of these pastors' mouths. You're a good little Baptist, just like others are good little Catholics, and since it makes you feel good, you just can't move outside the Baptist bubble to free your mind.
Now remember, I wouldn't be saying any of this if you hadn't leveled the accusation of me being "messed up." One would think that the truly messed up person is the one who just blindly believes what they're told or what they read. I'd ask you the REALLY difficult question but risk the possibility of being banned for something that has little chance of bearing fruit. The adage "ya can't teach old dogs new tricks" has some basis in reality, does it not?
You mean grammar. See? You said "alphabets," which just tells me you don't know what you're talking about. Yes, English grammar derived from German, and not Latin, so helper verbs are part of the language.
Again, you missed the point. I've compared the translations previously mentioned. Have you? NO. You have not, and yet feel comfortable to conclude that there's no "interference." So what would YOU say to someone who doesn't do the work, and yet leaps to conclusions without adequate education?
I don't know if you're just hopeless or being willfully ignorant. I didn't use the terms "logos and rhema" - the BIBLE uses the words LOGOS and RHEMA.
Why is that now a difficult thing to understand?
I trust the BIBLE to provide me with the correct meaning of "God's Word." It would seem you would rather trust an uneducated pastor, and lying scribes.
(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV) How can you say, “We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us,” when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?
Do you trust the teachings of Jesus Christ to be sufficient for your salvation--
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
(Acts 13:38 KJV)
Rhema
That's not what RHEMA means.
(And that's my point.)
Rhema. -- nor to sound mean -- but is everything the working of the devil?
The term Bible is the same as God's Word.
I've never seen the Need to do that though it was brought up before. A generation could be 30 yrs.or 60 yes.
It's trusting God's Word to be truthful. And it's the line that Jesus Christ came through.
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance I'd things hoped for the evidence of things not seen."
Vs 2. By faith we understand that the worlds were frames by the word of God so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.". That entire chapter is wonderful.
Rhema
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Bug, ... Martin Luther is not Martin Luther King (Jr.) ...
Martin Luther - Wikipedia
Martin Luther King Jr. - Wikipedia
Thanks,
Rhema
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And why wouldn't the rich man ask how to cross over to get out of the flames ??
I take it, Beetow, that you think this passage to be a spiritual lesson, and not a scientific cosmology ??
Rhema
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The dead know not any thing.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV)
So since your Bible says the dead know nothing, why do you believe in a fantasy that dead people get thirsty and can talk to Abraham?
Rhema
(Or are you going to start adding in words to the Bible again?)
