Lazarus and the Rich man...

[Sue D.]

My post was supposed to read "when the lord...."etc.

 

[theQuestion]

My post was supposed to read "when the lord...."etc.

__________________________

Again, from WHERE? From HEAVEN? From EARTH? Or that region?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I would not call it mixing bible with mythology but rather how do we rightly divide the series of parables (3 chapters in a row) all coming to same spiritual understanding . All parables are teaching parables. Teaching us how to walk by faith the unseen eternal, and not after the temporal seen. .

Beginning in Chapter 15. . hundred sheep preaching the theme throughout a series of parables informing us . . "no man can serve two good teaching masters as one unseen lord ", The theme revealed in Chapter 16 :13 , the conclusion of the the series , Abraham . . .( the father of all the nations of the world) and Lazarus . . (God has helped) ending in Chapter 17 the witness to the law. . no man can serve two good teaching masters as one Lord.

The Jews denied all things written in the law and the prophets(sola scriptura) as they communicated with those dead relatives as workers with familiar disembodied spirit gods . Coming for the faithless Jew of that day . Just as today called patron saints by some.


In respect to their false belief .

The Holy Spirit set up a law of interpretation that prohibits the idea of serving another teaching master as Lord. . He placed a void between one communication form to another to either party .

The law . The law and the prophets (the testimony) . Sola scriptura is woven throughout the whole series of parables over and over. No man can serve two good teaching masters as one Lord

Luke 16: 16-31 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; (sola scriptura) let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

They still having no faith that could please God insisted if they saw one come back from the dead (walk by sight) then they would believe the true master . Not given the understanding of the parable, the mystery of faith, the power to believe the one master as it is written .

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God as it is written and mammon, the wisdom of this world under the god thereof .

Uh huh..Okay

 

[Sue D.]

@the Question. -- read the passage your self.

 

[theQuestion]

I've read the Bible, many times- doing research and taking notes.
You want me to post the passage?

The Rich Man- the Pharisees
The Poor Man- his name meant "God has Helped"
The parable was making fun of the moronic things the Pharisees taught.
Many of the customs/ superstitions we miss because were weren't there.

 

[Sue D.]

@the question. --. We seem to be talking about two different subjects. I was referring to Enoch and Elijah being taken up rather than dying. You were just sharing about the rich man and Lazarus. It.was a real event not a parable.

 

[Rhema]

You were just sharing about the rich man and Lazarus. It.was a real event not a parable.

What do you base That on.

It was a real event not a parable.

What do you base that on?

Rhema
I would technically agree that it wasn't a parable, but it was, though, an allegory.

(If you wish, consider it a rhetorical question.)

 

[Sue D.]

Lazarus and the rich man account did take place and those two men were taken up rather than dying

 

[Rhema]

Lazarus and the rich man account did take place ....

What do you base That on.

As you had asked about something else, I again ask of you... what do you base that on?

Rhema
(You hadn't answered the question.)

 

[Sue D.]

Let's figure out what is being talked about. Not trying to be difficult. What question specifically was I being asked that I didn't answer.

 

[Rhema]

Let's figure out what is being talked about. Not trying to be difficult. What question specifically was I being asked that I didn't answer.

Okay....

Lazarus and the rich man account did take place

What do you base that on?

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Sue D.]

Rhema -- look at Luke 16: 19-31.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema -- look at Luke 16: 19-31.

Sue, with all due respect, I have translated that passage.

What makes you think it was "real" and not a spiritual story?

Rhema

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV)​

For the living will know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, and there is no longer any reward to them; for their memory is lost.​

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 Brenton)​

 

[Sue D.]

Because there's nothing in that passage that indicates it isn't real.

Every one of us are both physical and spiritual.

This physical body will die at some point. But the spiritual part lives on It never dies.

We don't like to think of anyone suffering forever. But that episode tells us otherwise.

 

[Sue D.]

A dead body doesn't k ow anything. The physical part won't be responding to anything. It will be on a grave somewhere.

Eventually we all spend eternity somewhere. Born again believers will get a glorified.body.

I use the term born again believer because. Lots of people acknowledge in their head but not in their heart.

 

[Rhema]

Because there's nothing in that passage that indicates it isn't real.

Yes there is... specifically "Abraham's Bosom"

It's not found anywhere else in the entire Bible, so where did the phrase come from?

Bosom of Abraham - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's a Jewish fable - a fairy tale. It's an aphorism to convey that Lazarus was Jewish without blemish.

A dead body doesn't k ow anything.

Your own scripture says nothing about a dead "BODY". It says the DEAD period. So ... it's usually not wise to add in words. The common meaning then is the same as now, dead people. Whom do you know that's dead? Being dead, he or she knows nothing. Dead is Dead.

Born again believers will get a glorified.body.

AFTER being resurrected, not after dying. Dead people are dead and as is directly written - the dead know nothing.

But the spiritual part lives on It never dies.

And what do you base that on?

(And what, pray tell, is this "spiritual part"?)

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Sue D.]

Rheba. Bible trumps Wikipedia

Everyone is born physically but a person needs to be born spiritually inorder to have eternal life in heaven. Jesus was explaining that to Nicodemus in John 3.

When the rapture takes place -- those taken up will be with Jesus forever and recEive a glorified body.

You commented that 'my' scriptures don't say 'whatever' so I shouldn't be adding to that passage. My scripture happens to be God's Word. What is Your scripture.

I wasn't adding or subtracting from simply stating.

 

[Rhema]

Rheba. Bible trumps Wikipedia

You know that the Bible contains allegory.

Where, then, does the Bible (which you say "trumps" history) explain exactly WHAT "Abraham's Bosom" is?

Please post the scriptures.

Soon you'll be telling me that angels have wings... and that there are seven levels of hell.

Rhema

(Or is it nine?......)
.

 

[Rhema]

My scripture happens to be God's Word.

Sue, again with all due respect, you truly don't know what God's Word actually is.

Rhema

(If you do, then please define both of them.)

 

[Rhema]

You commented that 'my' scriptures don't say 'whatever' so I shouldn't be adding to that passage.

Yes, your scripture does NOT say "dead bodies". It says "the dead". You change the scriptures when saying:

A dead body doesn't know anything.

In truth, the Dead know nothing.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV)​

For the living will know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, and there is no longer any reward to them; for their memory is lost.​

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 Brenton)​

Again, I do not think it is wise to add in words. That's when all kinds of Christian fables get invented.

The only reasonable conclusion is that ANY story that speaks of the Dead knowing or doing anything is directly in contrast to the clear teaching in Ecclesiastes 9:5 and as such those stories are spiritual allegory - stories, not factual history.

Rhema