Hell?
Lost faith in the people who claim they r Christian
- Thread starter Twistie
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Gregoryp
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For in death there is no remembrance of You; in the grave who will give You thanks? (Psalm 6:5)
» Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them. . . . (Psalm 49:14)
» [I am] adrift among the dead, like the slain who lie in the grave, whom You remember no more, and who are cut off from Your hand. (Psalm 88:5)
» What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his life from the power of the grave? (Psalm 89:48)
» For love is as strong as death, jealousy as cruel as the grave. . . . (Song of Songs 8:6)
» I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! (Hosea 13:14; see I Corinthians 15:55)
» And they made His grave with the wicked—but with the rich at His death. . . . (Isaiah 53:9)
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'Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one:
.. and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
.... For we are labourers together with God:
...... ye are God's husbandry,
...... ye are God's building.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me,
.. as a wise masterbuilder,
.... I have laid the foundation,
...... and another buildeth thereon.
........ But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
.......... For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid,
............ which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation
.. gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
.... Every man's work shall be made manifest:
...... for the day shall declare it,
........ because it shall be revealed by fire;
.......... and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.'
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.'
(1 Corinthians 3:8-15)
Hello @Twistie,
In regard to your discussion earlier concerning, 'punishment': I thought the Scripture above was appropriate. For believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, it is a matter of 'reward' or 'loss'; for resurrection life is assured them . They will not come into condemnation: for they are trusting in the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ on their behalf; Who took the penalty of their sin upon Himself and died in their place.
For the unbeliever, who has not received the promise of life in Christ Jesus, there is condemnation: for he is having to pay the penalty for his own sin; having refused to believe and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as His Saviour and Lord: and thereby receive the forgiveness of sin that God has promised to all who will believe on His only Begotten Son . So, for the unbeliever is the prospect of the second death, following judgment. Yes?
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
.. and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
.... For we are labourers together with God:
...... ye are God's husbandry,
...... ye are God's building.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me,
.. as a wise masterbuilder,
.... I have laid the foundation,
...... and another buildeth thereon.
........ But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
.......... For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid,
............ which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation
.. gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
.... Every man's work shall be made manifest:
...... for the day shall declare it,
........ because it shall be revealed by fire;
.......... and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.'
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.'
(1 Corinthians 3:8-15)
Hello @Twistie,
In regard to your discussion earlier concerning, 'punishment': I thought the Scripture above was appropriate. For believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, it is a matter of 'reward' or 'loss'; for resurrection life is assured them . They will not come into condemnation: for they are trusting in the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ on their behalf; Who took the penalty of their sin upon Himself and died in their place.
For the unbeliever, who has not received the promise of life in Christ Jesus, there is condemnation: for he is having to pay the penalty for his own sin; having refused to believe and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as His Saviour and Lord: and thereby receive the forgiveness of sin that God has promised to all who will believe on His only Begotten Son . So, for the unbeliever is the prospect of the second death, following judgment. Yes?
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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What penalty did the Messiah take that would otherwise have to be taken by us?
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Hello @rstrats,
'The wages of sin is death' - 'but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord' (Romans 6:23)
The Lord Jesus Christ took upon Himself the penalty for our sins which is death, and died in our place, that we may live through Him. Yes, He bore our guilt, that we may be declared, 'Not Guilty'. His righteousness was imputed unto us.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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But we all have been dying since the crucifixion.
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'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Col 3:3)
Hello @rstrats,
Yes, for the bodies we were born with are subject to corruption. We will receive new bodies, which are not subject to corruption, at the resurrection.
We have received the 'promise' of life now, which is in Christ Jesus. Our life is 'hid' with Christ in God. We now look for His appearing, for when He appears in glory we will appear with Him there, for He is our life.
There is no life apart from resurrection.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Since every one eventually dies, regardless of what the Messiah did, the death being mentioned must be referring to something different. And that something different must be the wages/penalty for sin. Exactly what does this death penalty consist of that the Messiah took upon Himself?
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'For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For He (God the Father) hath put all things under His (Christ Jesus') feet.
...... But when He saith all things are put under Him,
...... it is manifest that He is excepted,
...... which did put all things under Him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto Him,
.. then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him
.... that put all things under Him,
...... that God may be all in all.'
(1 Corinthians 15:25-28)
Hello @rstrats,
Yes, all do die. The difference between the believer and unbeliever at death, is that the believer has the promise of life, resurrection life, which will take place on that day of God's choosing. He will be raised to life, and receive a resurrection body, he will not come under condemnation but will pass from death into life eternal in Christ Jesus. The unbelieving dead are raised to judgment, and will die again in the second death. So why death at all? :-
'Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit in-corruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep (ie., die) but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren,
be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord,
forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.'
(1 Cor. 15:50-58)
'For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep (ie., the dead) in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep (ie.,who have died in Christ).
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.'
(1Thess. 4:14-18)
* God reckons the believing dead in these verses, to be merely sleeping, for they have the promise of life in Christ Jesus.
' If ye then be risen with Christ,
seek those things which are above,
where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
.. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
.... When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
...... then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Col 3:1)
* This is the hope held by the Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all. We are so identified by God with Christ, that when He died, we died, when He was buried, so were we, when He was quickened and rose from the dead, so did we, and now we are raised, in Him, and seated at God's right hand, awaiting His appearing, when we will appear with Him in glory.
* This is a reckoning of faith.
* So, in answer to your question, @restats, the penalty that Christ bore, was death itself: For in rising from the dead He gained the victory over death, for all who are 'in Him' by faith. Death therefore has no dominion over us.
Sorry to be so longwinded.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hi @restrats,
Sorry if I have not been clear.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris
Twistie
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It consist of total separation from YH from He who is All good you see death through the eyes of flesh mayb? Death one stops breathing that's the flesh Spiritual Speration is what we don't have to experience
Immanuel
So the penalty for sin is separation from YH for 3 days and 3 nights?
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Hello Twistie,
With respect, your explanation is one held by many, I know; yet it is not upheld by Scripture.
Death means the absence of life: for all, whether believer or unbeliever. The difference for the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, is that he has the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus. His life is hid with Christ in God, and when He Who is our life shall appear, then the members of His Body will appear with Him in resurrection glory.
There is no life apart from resurrection.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
The penalty for sin is "death " never to rise to new life . Its appointed once to die . the opposition is you will surely not die . . Look at me the most beautiful of all creation and live forever . It was not God choice they obey the voce of a stranger Lucifer the false light .
The three and and nights demonstration of the father working with the Son it caused the Son of man Jesus to suffer the pangs of hell as the father bruised his heel . Genesis 3:15 as well as Isaiah 53 parable .
Suffered the pangs of hell "unto death," ( a living sacrifice) He did not die never to return .The father worked in Jesus keeping his body from corrupting dying to the point of no return , never to rises.
Unto death not dead never to rise.
In John 11 he kept Lazarus body from never rising 4 days . The disciples that we there thought he was dead never to rise but Jesus says he sleeps . . defining the kind of death . All saints wil be awokoen like that of Lazraus . "Saints rise" (the wake up call ).receive your new incorruptible bodies that will never die or suffer the pangs of hell the wage of sin
David speaks of his own soul as well as the soul of the Holy one (the Son of Man, Jesus . Both sons of God as new creatures
Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Again unto death not dead never to rise like a unbeliever, non redeemed
Matthew 26:37-39King James VersionAnd he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Former believers will be denied by Him as they would deny Him, but He still abides in them.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
We "endure" because former believers are still to be called to depart from iniquity by going before that throne of grace for help in seeing the lies that turned them away to see the truth in His words and repent with His help.
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Verse 20 is validation that former believers and professing believers in iniquity are still saved but called to depart from iniquity or else risk being left behind to die but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood and earth in serving the King f kings on earth during that 1000 year reign in raising up the generations following them.
As it is, Jesus will lose none of all the Father has given Him, but which resurrection day will believers today be a part of? The firstfruits when the Bridegroom comes or they that be Christ' at His coming?
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Twistie
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Uh ya that's separation from YH YH is Life YH is Good so take all the food love away you have nothing
Twistie
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It's all written why do u not ask YH to reveal it to you? You will never get it until YH reveals it to you man can not teach a spiritual teachings only the Spirit can
I was once like you seeking answers from man n all that does is make one even more confused
Only One teacher Knock n He shall answer ask n you shall receive one receives not when its for a selfish reason
Have a good day I got go rest therapy is whipping my old butt
Exactly, how could one suffer without the spirit essence . . breath of life?
One death, the death we are working out. The penalty for sin dying. No miss trial or double jeapordy .
That's a Catholic fathers innovation or oral traditon pased on from the faithless Jewish fathers called a law of the fathers doctrine of men .
In the past they have dug up the bones of past popes (Pope Formoso) and pronounced judgment making a way passing the bones around to be venerated as idol images
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it
The false doctrine of after life called Limbo the beginning of wondering sufferings, wondering suffering with no end of faith the salvation of ones soul . . after one takes the last breath .Again Purgatory or Limbo only shows that some do despite to the fullness of grace the one price of salvation.
.Born again believers receive the end (salvation) from the beginning
Hell is the living sufferings we experience in these aging, dying , earthen bodies of death , Cant' suffer if one cannot breath .
1 Peter 1:8-11 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
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Hello @Twistie,
I hope I did not misunderstand your earlier entry that I responded to, and that I will not be found to be doing so with this one either, for I do not find it easy to follow your manner of speech. If I have, forgive me, please.
We may both speak the same language, but we come from such different walks of life, yes?Will you please rephrase this for me, so that I will be able to understand.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
