Martin Luther on Faith

[Wired 4 Fishen]

is is my faith or is it God's faith?
when Abraham believed God, it was credited to him as righteousness.
so was it Abraham's faith, or was it God's faith, that was credited to Abraham as righteousness?
did Abraham believe God, or did God believe God?

It was Abrahams Faith in GOD.............and His word and ways that credited Him as Righteous......

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I think I agree with you. I'll just have to pay attention to what you say as time goes on to find out though.

To comment on what you said earlier:

The following verses are totally true:

1John 2
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.​

But, the following verses are also true:

Ephesians 4
8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." 9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,​

The way this is written, in the original, hints at the fact that these 5 ministries, or 4 some would argue, are the gifts that he gave to men. Or at least part of it, if not the whole. Point being?

1 Corinthians 12
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?​

The obvious answer to the rhetorical question being a resounding, "No." God calls and equips persons to teach and preach the word of God. God was doing something special in Martin Luther, and others, men like Spurgeon, Whitefield, Edwards, Wesley, etc. We would do well to listen to them, because Christ gave them to us as gifts. Their doctrine, insofar as what they taught that was true was not men's doctrine, it was God's doctrine, they were/are just stewards of it. No man who is called to preach the gospel comes up with the doctrine on his own, he is given it from above. If we reject those whom God has truly sent, then in a sense we have rejected him.

Blessings,

Travis

Travis this scripture here is talking about when Jesus defeated satan and his demons and principalities Jesus Led the saints of old from purgatory or paradise ( where the saints of old resigned ) unto Heaven with Him. Jesusd took them home.
8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, andhe gave gifts to men." 9(In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You say you agree almost entirely 100% with luther, but then you say "well i think we see an emphasis placed on works as opposed to faith alone." Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it seems you disagree 100% with what luther said?

Luther claimed that it is of faith alone, and the protestant reformation was really defined by this in many ways. Were Luther and all these men who came after him and affirmed this just plain wrong? Was the protestant reformation founded on a lie, on a half truth? Was all this contention for naught?

I don't think a person needs to have faith to cast out demons, to work miracles, and to prophecy in Jesus name. Judas did all of these things, and I think that any man would be hard pressed to say that Judas had faith, or that he was a believer.

I'm curious what you think of these verses:

Philippians 2
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.​

Blessings,

Travis

Travis you said here.....
I don't think a person needs to have faith to cast out demons, to work miracles, and to prophecy in Jesus name. Judas did all of these things, and I think that any man would be hard pressed to say that Judas had faith, or that he was a believer.

Well if a person does not need faith to do this then what does he need travis? Now also show me where Judas didf any of these things? Show me where Judas had no faith............

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

See, right there. I think we have hit the nail on the head here. This is exactly it.

You and I have completely different definitions of faith. I believe the point of James chapter 2 is that dead faith is no faith at all, and it certainly is not from God.

Ephesians 4
4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.​

There is but one faith. That faith is living faith, and it never fails. You either have it or you don't. Judas didn't have any of it. I mean, many of the disciples of Jesus did not have faith, that weren't even Judas's who betrayed him, Jesus says so himself:

John 6
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.​

They followed him, and may have well done many signs in his name. Doesn't mean they truly believed.


Also, side note. Jesus never said Beelzebub can't cast Beelzebub out. Only that if he does, it shows his house is divided, and a divided house cannot stand. Satan's house is not going to stand.

Blessings,

Travis

Travis God puts of measure of faith in every one..........It is not if you have it or not..It is if you have built on it or built it up by the written word of God.

 

[RJ]

I agree with you about faith as you either have faith or you don't. there is no small, medium, large faith, you either have faith or no faith at all.

Hmmm! God said: Romans 12:3 For by the grace given to me I ask every one of you not to think of yourself more highly than you should think, rather to think of yourself with sober judgment on the measure of faith that God has assigned each of you.

is is my faith or is it God's faith?
when Abraham believed God, it was credited to him as righteousness.
so was it Abraham's faith, or was it God's faith, that was credited to Abraham as righteousness?
did Abraham believe God, or did God believe God?

The ole' answer a question with a question. A bad way of not answering and shifting the subject to where ever you want it. So, I will answer it for you: We live in the New Covenant and this particular question can not be answered by trying to shift the conversation to the Old Covenant. Unlike the Old Covenant, in the New, God lives in us and it is works through us that we are credited for anything!

 

[Travis]

Back in the 1500's I believe when Luther was excommunicated from the catholic church and this was not his intensions. Now in I believe 1999 The catholic church or the Vatican got together with the Luthern People or council got together and settled their indifferences. They settled it in Luthers favor for Luther spoke the word of God. The catholic church now agrees that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father or salvation.....
Blessings
Jim

I've heard quite otherwise:

More than years after it appeared, we still continue to hear that the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification was a “breakthrough” between the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church. The media loves to perpetuate this myth. In fact, the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is a fraud. It was a sell-out by revisionist liberal Lutherans to Rome. The Vatican certainly knows this is not true. Liberal Lutherans and those who support them keep repeating it, in spite of the fact that it is simply not true.
https://www.lutheransonline.com/lo/553/FSLO-1361564553-111553.pdf
​

Copeland also may have decided to climb in bed with the Pope. But, I'm not going to compromise and do so.

 

[Travis]

Travis God puts of measure of faith in every one..........It is not if you have it or not..It is if you have built on it or built it up by the written word of God.

That's an easy one:

2 Thessalonians 3
1 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, 2 and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

whether or not you are right; or i am right, i think it important to teach this the way the bible teaches it. if we go around saying that works are not necessary, repentance is not necessary, obedience is not necessary, that these things have nothing to do with salvation, then we will be unfaithful servants who do not do the masters will.

nearly every one of the parables that Jesus told about salvation told a story about salvation that was based on works. the new testament is absolutely filled with commands to repentance and good behavior, and warnings if we do not. faith without works is dead. not, a lack of faith without works is still a lack of faith. but, faith, faith without works, thats a dead faith, though it be faith, it can not save you. there is only one faith, only one faith that saves, this is true. but there is a dead faith that does not save.

this is my opinion

There is only one Faith.

That's an easy one:

2 Thessalonians 3
1 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, 2 and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

This scripture is being used out of context and has not a thing to do with eiother places i quoted you and asked you what you mean..

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I've heard quite otherwise:

More than years after it appeared, we still continue to hear that the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification was a “breakthrough” between the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church. The media loves to perpetuate this myth. In fact, the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is a fraud. It was a sell-out by revisionist liberal Lutherans to Rome. The Vatican certainly knows this is not true. Liberal Lutherans and those who support them keep repeating it, in spite of the fact that it is simply not true.
https://www.lutheransonline.com/lo/553/FSLO-1361564553-111553.pdf
​

Copeland also may have decided to climb in bed with the Pope. But, I'm not going to compromise and do so.

Travis I have no clue where you get your information but it as well as your attitude is poor. I rebuke you brother in front of all of the people here for you slander of Gods servants especially when you have no clue what you are saying. You dont have all the answers brother.......

 

[WaterRock]

Travis God puts of measure of faith in every one.

As written in Mark 9:23, 'Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth."

In such, I have always considered that 'believing' was the "measure of faith", but in itself is not faith. Thus, the reference to "if thou canst believe" is a reference to
having faith, because all things are possible only to believers since those with faith know that all things are not possible. However faith requires one to believe all things. [1 Cor 13:7]

That is not to say that all things are true, but if one simply makes assumptions as to what is true and what isn't true then they lack faith. Therefore one has to do those things which are constitute the faith that Jesus taught.

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:13-14

Thus it is written in Mark 9:24, 'And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.'

So if a measure of faith is faith, then wouldn't all men have faith since God has given a measure of faith to all men?

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
3 But the LORD is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
2 Thess 3:2-3

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

As written in Mark 9:23, 'Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth."

In such, I have always considered that 'believing' was the "measure of faith", but in itself is not faith. Thus, the reference to "if thou canst believe" is a reference to
having faith, because all things are possible only to believers since those with faith know that all things are not possible. However faith requires one to believe all things. [1 Cor 13:7]

That is not to say that all things are true, but if one simply makes assumptions as to what is true and what isn't true then they lack faith. Therefore one has to do those things which are constitute the faith that Jesus taught.

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:13-14

Thus it is written in Mark 9:24, 'And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.'

So if a measure of faith is faith, then wouldn't all men have faith since God has given a measure of faith to all men?

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
3 But the LORD is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
2 Thess 3:2-3

Hello Waterrock,
What exactly are you trying to say here ?

 

[WaterRock]

Hello Waterrock,
What exactly are you trying to say here ?

Believing is not the same thing as Faith. James 2:18

For example, everyone has heard the Biblical account of how God gave Moses a rod that when cast down on the ground would become a serpent. :
If one believes that Moses cast down a rod before Pharaoh and it became a serpent is really true, then how are they any more faithful than those who believe it is
just a mythical story?

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb 11:6

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Believing is not the same thing as Faith. James 2:18

For example, everyone has heard the Biblical account of how God gave Moses a rod that when cast down on the ground would become a serpent. :
If one believes that Moses cast down a rod before Pharaoh and it became a serpent is really true, then how are they any more faithful than those who believe it is
just a mythical story?

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb 11:6

Yes I understand that big time. My questioning was what Curtis said where we do not need need faith to cast out demons and do miricles and such.....

 

[WaterRock]

Yes I understand that big time.

So do you think that Moses really cast down a rod before Pharaoh and it became a serpent. So am I faithless because I no longer believe it is true?

My questioning was what Curtis said where we do not need need faith to cast out demons and do miricles and such.....

He might have been referring unto Matt 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Travis]

[QUOTE="Wired 4 Fishen, post: 256099]
This scripture is being used out of context and has not a thing to do with eiother places i quoted you and asked you what you mean..[/QUOTE]

I guess I don't know how to make it any more in context? That one is pretty solid.

Perhaps you could expand on those verses I posted for us all?

Blessings,

Travis

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

It was Abrahams Faith in GOD.............and His word and ways that credited Him as Righteous......

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected

James 2:20-22

 

[RJ]

faith without works

Not your works but God's work through you...remember we are but a branch, we carry the fruit but God produces it!

Was not Abraham our father justified by works

No, learn your scripture:
Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.
Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Not your works but God's work through you...remember we are but a branch, we carry the fruit but God produces it!

No, learn your scripture:
Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.
Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

I quoted scripture that says Abraham was indeed justified by works. James 2:20-22

you say what we must do is believe. if we must do it, then we must do it. that is a work that we must do. so we must work faith in order to be saved. what else must we work?

if we must believe God to be justfied, but faith in God comes from God; then it is also right to say that we must work in order to be justfied, but works come from God.

both saving faith and saving works are things we must do but things we cannot do without God. there is no difference between them. we must do them, but God must do them for us. both faith and works.

 

[RJ]

I quoted scripture that says Abraham was indeed justified by works. James 2:20-22

I am sorry @TaylorDonBarret but you just can't cherry pick scripture. Besides being common theology, I showed yo two verses that say the opposite, but of course you won't acknowledge those. Look further at what James said: 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"!
Belief is a spiritual act, of which God can only accept and not physical works of man.
You believe in salvation by works and I by faith!

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

So do you think that Moses really cast down a rod before Pharaoh and it became a serpent. So am I faithless because I no longer believe it is true?



He might have been referring unto Matt 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Could have but been but it still does not apply. Nothing mentionin

[QUOTE="Wired 4 Fishen, post: 256099]
This scripture is being used out of context and has not a thing to do with eiother places i quoted you and asked you what you mean..

I guess I don't know how to make it any more in context? That one is pretty solid.

Perhaps you could expand on those verses I posted for us all?

Blessings,

Travis[/QUOTE]

Travis Never mind, I did not think you would actually make an attempt any way. What ever works for you is all that matters huh...