Mother Mary

[Admon Mikha'el]

Then that will go, under your opinion, that any other book is not needed for any other person within the Bible. Not just Holy Mary, if it is your opinion then so be it.

The book doesn't idolize her as that would be a sin, it states what she did in her Earth days that made her inspirational... Some people love Holy Mary as a spiritual Mother... their is no problem with that.

Winter...are you a Romanist?

 

[Brad Huber]

and that makes her the mother of God? That's a real stretch. And its not what the Word says. Jesus had to come into Earth physically and Mary became the portal for Him to do that...A man sinned so a man had to pay and that's why Jesus needed a body....He existed before so Mary did not mother him. He already was...Mary birthed a baby that Jesus lived in.

Catholics havent said that Mary had no beginning. They didnt say she was an alpha and omega. They simply say that she was the mother of Jesus who happens to be part of the Godhead. Now calling her queen of heaven, not sure thats something they should do. Doesnt sound right to my spirit. Its not a stretch to call her the mother of Jesus. What do you consider a mother to be? Was the woman who birthed and raised you, your mother, or was she just some vessel, nothing worthy of honor? I personally honor my mother, that she didnt abort me and did her best to love me and raise me well. Scripture even tells us to honor our mothers and fathers. But you dont want to woman who was a mother to Jesus on this earth to be honored any more than any women who was a decent woman. Just some vessel, like a machine that incubates life. Jesus honored her. He had to if he wanted to be sinless. Scripture is clear on honoring your mother and father, but Jesus didnt? Why do you think He turned water into wine at the wedding on her request? He didnt want to do it. God in the form of Jesus said He didnt want to, but did it anyway for her, because He loved her, he honored her. Not sure why protestants cant see this, its like you are pre-conditioned to dislike anything catholic. Scripture even says (through the Holy Spirit) that all nations (I believe) will call her blessed, for that very reason.

 

[Dave M]

Its not a stretch to call her the mother of Jesus

as a former Catholic I never recall them saying that, but I do recall every mass they saying the mother of God, and that is wrong on all levels, IMO

 

[Brad Huber]

as a former Catholic I never recall them saying that, but I do recall every mass they saying the mother of God, and that is wrong on all levels, IMO

Its sort of a twisting of the facts yes, but not completely untrue either if you believe that Jesus was and is God. I have been to about a half a dozen catholic services in the past and known many catholics that seemed pretty righteous.... but I never experienced the hero worship of Mary other than here sometimes. I get the feeling that it may be something thats blown up more by some to make the distinction of catholic vs protestanism.

 

[EverlastingWinter]

Winter...are you a Romanist?

Not yet,

I need to go through the training but do not have time at the moment due to life. I am Anglican.

Its sort of a twisting of the facts yes, but not completely untrue either if you believe that Jesus was and is God. I have been to about a half a dozen catholic services in the past and known many catholics that seemed pretty righteous.... but I never experienced the hero worship of Mary other than here sometimes. I get the feeling that it may be something thats blown up more by some to make the distinction of catholic vs protestanism.

I've visited many churches in different countries, and each holds Mass in its own unique way, including Protestant churches. In some countries, there's a practice called the Novena, where people pray and devote themselves to Holy Mary with songs, prayers, while the priest discusses her, teachings about the Bible. Then, one third through, the focus shifts to the Lord, teachings and so on. Oh my, if only you could see the difference! While people may pray passionately to a saint, it simply doesn’t compare to how they pray to our Lord. It's truly incredible.

I have yet to see a church that seems to worship Holy Mary. Naturally, she holds significant influence as the Mother of Jesus, reflecting his humanity. Still, you should experience those who truly pray and worship to the Lord. It's genuinely inspiring.

There is certainly a difference between these.

 

[Brad Huber]

Not yet,

I need to go through the training but do not have time at the moment due to life. I am Anglican.



I've visited many churches in different countries, and each holds Mass in its own unique way, including Protestant churches. In some countries, there's a practice called the Novena, where people pray and devote themselves to Holy Mary with songs, prayers, while the priest discusses her, teachings about the Bible. Then, one third through, the focus shifts to the Lord, teachings and so on. Oh my, if only you could see the difference! While people may pray passionately to a saint, it simply doesn’t compare to how they pray to our Lord. It's truly incredible.

I have yet to see a church that seems to worship Holy Mary. Naturally, she holds significant influence as the Mother of Jesus, reflecting his humanity. Still, you should experience those who truly pray and worship to the Lord. It's genuinely inspiring.

There is certainly a difference between these.

Never been in a service with the Novena. I wonder how widespread it is. Kinda sad that the catholic church is just as diverse as the protestant churches.

 

[MedicBravo]

Figures you'd choose a woman who was deceived by the devil and played a role in the first sin in the world, rather than an actual representation of faith in God's eyes.

When it comes to women in the Bible, she is the one who is most admired. Yes, idolization is a sin; however, having someone who is inspirational and should be represented is a GOOD thing, especially nowadays when many female role models in the media are not ideal.

People aspire to be like her, to emulate her virtues. However, it can be nearly impossible to attain such a level of obedience. Even most nuns would find it challenging to be as devoted as she was.

You can argue all you like, but perhaps you should stop viewing her through a purely Catholic lens since she wasn't Catholic in the first place! I will never ignore posts that desecrate her.

I know your aware some people idolize other Saints, parade bones around and so on. It is all wrong, not just with Holy Mary. Try and separate your biases. In fact She would dislike this significantly, as she was significantly modest.

I learned about Holy Mary with the KVJ, NIV and so on. Not the Catholic Bible...

Your first?
She was chosen to have Jesus. She didn't start the church, didn't write any books, and did her role "among women".
Adam and Eve, your first Mother who you so freely insulted, both had a direct relationship with God.

I don't aspire to be like Mary. Women can but men should aspire to be like Jesus, David, Moses, etc.

I'm not Catholic. I see with facts, evidence, pictures, video, and more from the CC and Catholics. Why do you take defense of them? I and many ask the same/similar questions and not one Catholic can give God or Scripture to back much of what they do. It makes them mad and you seem to be. Huh....

It's not "some people". In fact, a LOT of Catholics do and the Hispanic ones are the high majority which have/do the Rosary and the Cross b/c the believe these things have "power".

I have yet to hear any non-Catholic call her "Holy Mary".
We don't call Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, et.c "Holy Matthew, Holy Mark, Holy Luke, Holy John, Holy...."

 

[Brad Huber]

She was chosen to have Jesus. She didn't start the church, didn't write any books

This is not definitive, but I am pretty sure that Mary had great influence over the early part of each gospel. She was the only one around who had any idea what Jesus's life was like before the disciples joined up.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

This excerpt from the Mclintock and Strong Biblical Encyclopedia should encapsulate all I have against Mary being so venerated/adored/worshipped.

"As mother of the Savior of the world," says Dr. Schaff (Ch. Hist. 2:410), "the Virgin Mary unquestionably holds forever a peculiar position among all women and in the history of redemption;" and, from this point of view, he remarks that it is "perfectly natural, nay, essential to sound religious feeling, to associate with Mary the fairest traits of maidenly and maternal character, and to revere her as the highest model of female purity, love, and piety.... But, on the other hand, it is equally unquestionable that she is nowhere in the N.T. excepted from the universal sinfulness and the universal need of redemption, nor represented as immaculately holy, or as in any way an object of divine veneration." Roman Catholics, however, have insisted upon the adoration, as they term worship in this instance, of the mother of Jesus, holding that Mary has been assumed in the Trinity, so as to make it a Quaternity; that "Mary is the complement of the Trinity" (Pusey, Eirenicon, 2:167), and that the intercession of Mary is needed for the salvation of the followers of Jesus Christ. We quote the words of Liguori himself: "We most readily admit that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of Justice, and that by his merits he obtains us all grace and salvation; but we say that Mary is the Mediatrix of Grace; and that receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, and because she prays and asks for it in the name of Jesus Christ, yet all the same, whatever graces we receive, they come to us through her intercession"


(Glories of Mary, p. 124). There is certainly not a word in the Bible, nor in the creeds of the Apostolic Church, nor even in the writings of the Church fathers of the first five centuries, to warrant any Christian in assigning such a position to Mary, the mother of Jesus, as the Catholic Church, both Latin and Greek, has dared to bestow upon her. One of the accepted interpreters of the Church of Rome, Liguori, in commenting on the exalted position which the Virgin Mary should hold in the estimation of Latin communicants, says that she is Queen of Mercy (p. 13); that she is the Mother of all mankind (p. 23); that she offered her Son to the Father on Mount Calvary (p. 23); that she is especially the Mother of repentant sinners (p. 42); that she is our Life (p. 52); that God was reconciled with sinners by the humility and purity of Mary (p. 56); that she obtains us perseverance (p. 59); that she renders death sweet to her clients (p. 68); that she is our Protectress at the hour of death (p. 71); that she is the Hope of all (p. 79); that she is our only Refuge, Help, and Asylum (p. 81); that she is the Propitiatory of the whole world (p. 81); that she is the one City of Refuge (p. 89); that it is her office to withhold God's arm from chastising sinners until he is pacified (p. 93); that she is the Comfortress of the world, the Refuge of the unfortunate (p. 100); that we shall be heard more quickly if we call on the name of Mary than if we call on the name of Jesus (p. 106); that she is our Patroness (p. 106); that she is Queen of heaven and hell, of all saints, and all evil spirits, because she conquered the latter by her virtues, and the devil by her fair humility and holy life (p. 110); that she protects us from the divine justice and from the devil (p. 115); that at the name of Mary every knee bows and hell trembles (p. 116); that she is the Ladder of paradise, the Gate of heaven, the most true Mediatrix between God and man (p. 121); that her intercession is necessary for salvation (p. 122); that she is the Mediatrix of grace (p. 124); that in her is all hope of life and virtue, all grace of the Way and Truth (p. 125); that in her we find eternal salvation (p. 125); that no one can enter heaven except by her (p. 127); that all graces of the spiritual life are transmitted by Mary (p. 127); that all gifts, virtues, graces are dispensed by her, to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases (p. 128); that from her the world receives every good (p. 128); that she is the Helper of the Redemption (p. 133); that she and her Son redeemed the world (p. 133); that she is the Co-operator in our justification (p. 133); that the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary (p. 135); that God says, "Go to Mary," when we seek for grace from him (p. 136); that the salvation of all depends on the favor and protection of Mary (p. 136); that the other saints intercede with her (p. 138); that she is a tender Advocate; that all power is given unto her in heaven and earth (p. 145); that God obeys the command of Mary (p. 146); that Mary is omnipotent (p. 146); that the whole Church is under the dominion of Mary (p. 146); that what she wills is necessarily done (p. 147); that her prayers have something of a command in them (p. 151); that Jesus Christ is under an obligation to her to grant all she asks (p. 152); that she is the singular Refuge of the lost (p. 156); that she is the Advocate of the whole human race (p. 161); that her chief office in the world is to reconcile fallen souls with God (p. 167); that she is the great Peace-maker who obtains reconciliation, salvation, pardon, and mercy (p. 165); that in her is established the seat of God's government (p. 179); that she delivers her clients from hell (p. 183); that her clients will necessarily be saved (p. 184); that she has sent back many from hell to earth who have died of mortal sins (p. 188); that she consoles, relieves, and succors her clients in purgatory (p. 195); that she delivers her clients from purgatory by applying her merits (p. 195); that she carries away from purgatory all who wear the Carmelite scapulary on the Saturday after they die, provided they have been chaste and have said her office (p. 196); that she does not suffer those who die clothed in the scapulary to go to hell (p. 185); that Mary leads her servants to heaven (p. 198); that she has the key of the gate of paradise (p. 199); that she is the Way of our salvation (p. 200); that it is for the love of Mary and on account of her merits that God is more merciful under the New than under the Old Dispensation (p. 214); that her powerful intercession sustains the world (p. 214); that she is the Throne of grace to which St. Paul bids us fly (p. 215); that Christ has promised that all who invoke the holy name of Mary with confidence shall have perfect sorrow for their sins, atonement for their crimes, strength to attain perfection, and shall reach the glory of paradise (p. 226), etc.

 

[Brad Huber]

This excerpt from the Mclintock and Strong Biblical Encyclopedia should encapsulate all I have against Mary being so venerated/adored/worshipped.

LOL, I would be careful of basing your prejudices upon encyclopedias or the internet. Just visit a local parish, attend service and see what you think on it.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

LOL, I would be careful of basing your prejudices upon encyclopedias or the internet. Just visit a local parish, attend service and see what you think on it.

I was raised a Romanist. I know what they preach....They preach what this encylopedia said. I remember when I was around ten years old, sitting in a Romanist church about fifty miles from my home church....The priest on his little platform bellowing about how Mary was taken into heaven and didn't even die...he preached all sorts of stories that were completely false, about Mary, just like they were fact.

 

[Brad Huber]

I was raised a Romanist. I know what they preach....They preach what this encylopedia said. I remember when I was around ten years old, sitting in a Romanist church about fifty miles from my home church....The priest on his little platform bellowing about how Mary was taken into heaven and didn't even die...he preached all sorts of stories that were completely false, about Mary, just like they were fact.

Well, they must be pretty different all around then. The ones I went to werent like that.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I was raised a Romanist. I know what they preach....They preach what this encylopedia said

Well, they must be pretty different all around then. The ones I went to werent like that.

Even when I was ten I could see the lies....I'm surprised that others cannot

 

[EverlastingWinter]

I was raised Anglican and they said some more then dreadful things which I wont comment as its lies and quoted I shouldn't read the Bible to remain pure and innocent so I could go to heaven due to not breaking commandments and rules due to ignorance.....

Seriously, the kindest and most honest person I ever met was a priest when I went to ( Shock horror) a Roman catholic high school. Never forced to choose either side down, just spoke about the Bible and his love for Christ.

Its quite funny tbh as if it wasn't for that priest guiding me to the Bible with encouragement , I probably would still be ignorant as an adult. ( He guided me to a KJV as he knew I was Anglican and told me to read that first before going to a Catholic Bible) .

Avoid Judging everything due to experiences, their are more people in this world that use the teaching incorrectly and spout out nonsense then those who follow the path of the Lord correctly.

Even when I was ten I could see the lies....I'm surprised that others cannot

 

[rstrats]

Yes That's what God would have done. The Father and the Son are the same They were in agreement always.

Not always. Read John 22:42. The Messiah's will didn't agree with the Father's.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Not always. Read John 22:42. The Messiah's will didn't agree with the Father's.

Ok, and having read it several times, I see no disagreement between Jesus and the Father. Care to explain it?

 

[rstrats]

Ok, and having read it several times, I see no disagreement between Jesus and the Father. Care to explain it?

The Messiah's will was to not have to go through the crucifixion process, whereas His Father's will was for Him to do it.

 

[MedicBravo]

The Messiah's will was to not have to go through the crucifixion process, whereas His Father's will was for Him to do it.

"crucifixion process"?

1. There was no argument. Jesus, as both God and Human displayed what any normal, rational, sane persou would feel knowing they were being executed.
"Let this cup pass from me," was Jesus' human emotional desire and showed fear and anxiety YET....He did it anyway.
2. Most Christians have problem understanding how God can be Three all at once. When people put God in a box in any way then their subjective view of God is NOT God.

An argument by definition, even a civil one, would see more than one response to the other.

We are the ones who tend to argue with God

1. Moses & the Golden Calf (Exodus 32:9-14)

2. Abraham pleads for Sodom (Genesis 18:16-32)

3. Mary asks Jesus to perform a miracle in the wedding at Cana (John 2:1-12)

4. Hezekiah pleads with God to add years to his life. (2 Kings 20 1-11)

In these, they(us) are the ones who argue and plead with God when we don't get our way or outcome.

 

[rstrats]

"Let this cup pass from me," was Jesus' human emotional desire and showed fear and anxiety YET....He did it anyway.

Just because He did it anyway, doesn't change the fact that His desire didn't agree with the Father's desire. That was simply in response to Admon Mikha'el's comment that they were always in agreement.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

The Messiah's will was to not have to go through the crucifixion process, whereas His Father's will was for Him to do it.

They were not in disagreement...Jesus was willing. How many times do you do things willingly that you do not want to do? Jesus as a man did not want to suffer the pain and degredation. Who would? If Jesus wanted to die like that, what sacrifice would it have been?