Once Saved Always Saved and Conditional Security

[Coconut]

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Eze 18:26

It would be foolish to pronounce a man dead after hes been saved from certain death would it not?

The question should be, is GOD a man that He should lie?

The answer is written in His Word, "let GODS word be true and every man [who contradicts Him] a liar."

 

[Jonah2005bt]

What do you believe and why? Give scripture references and explain it, also, if you can, please explain a few scriptures of your choice that seemingly contradict what you believe. I hope this would be fun and would help us grow in the Word of God. I do not believe in OSAS and I will also make posts in this thread.

What is OSAS?

 

[Coconut]

OSAS = once saved, always saved = false teaching.

 

[Jonah2005bt]

Genesis 4:6-7

Awesome thought you have here, Sade!

Here is one of the first Scripture I believe that The Almighty GOD spoke to me through, Genesis 4:6-7
6. So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7. "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.'' When I first started my walk with The Almighty GOD {& Jesus Christ}, I had said to HIM in a prayer, that I wanted to not only Worship HIM, but to live accordingly to the way HE says we should live, and to obey HIM. But I had feared that I was going to have a rough time doing so.
And I had spoke to HIM of this, just before I started one of my solo Bible Studies. And, as I opened my book to start studying, there was HIS answer, right there in Genesis 4:6 & 7.
In that message I understood what He was basically saying to me; that I need to try & to try with all my might, I need to put what HE is asking us to do - into action, to live by it, accordingly. I need to practice the way HE says we should live.
By doing so, I will be trying to do the best of my abilities. If I do the best that GOD knows I can do - then I will be excepted to live eternity with GOD & Jesus Christ forever. But if I fail - because I choose to give up - then I am giving up on GOD & Jesus Christ & there will be no eternity - to live forever - in the new heaven or in the new earth to come. {Isaiah 65:17}
Also, HE has tought me that when ever I am tempted by sin - I have the strengthe to take control. For HE has given me wisdom to controll it, through HIS Holy Spirit. Through Wisdom of knowing right from wrong & through the strengthe of HIS Holy Spirit.
I love this Scripture, I love it very much because of what I have learned from it.

If I want to please GOD, I must do what I know is right in HIS EYES!

This is why HE gave us Rules & Regulations to follow & which HE did give us through the teachings of Christ Jesus. *genesis!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I try to shy away from the philosophy of God giving me strength to do anything. That triggers an old ego problem for me.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves. It is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are GOD'S WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Eph 2:8-10).


SLE

 

[Fellowservant]

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: ther

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];


Mat 25:14 For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.


Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]: Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down.


Also read the parable of the sower Luke 8:4



We must repent or face outer darkness, the lord showed me this a long time ago as a returning Christian myself, in a very graphic and frightening way...

Repent or perish is what Christ says. How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

Can God save a backslider? yes he can but he must be willing to repent, even with the lords severe chastisment on some... they refuss to repent, it must be done.

The once saved always saved doctrine, is mostly based on a few scriptures taken out of context. Theres one scripture that says what shall seperate us from the love of God? and it covers a lot of things in it, but Paul is talking here about the already saved, not people who refuse to believe anymore... because of fear, or shame of his name.

Paul actually says its impossible to renew your salvation after you fall away, only real faith and repentence can bring it back, and Gods love and chastisment is included. But its gonna hurt like hell if he does use chastisment, in order for us not to be judged with the world. And like i said some lose thier faith and then it is useless, only God can stop or heal this, its up to the saint in question to believe.

Paul told the church to deliver a man over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit would be saved at the coming of christ, but this man was a real believer and fell into sin, so theres another problem... some are not real believers, or should i say not grounded or have no root, and no matter what is done to them they are at risk of outerdarkness. Many are called, but few are chosen, we are warned not to use the grace of God like a door mat.


Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


I would'nt mess with this, or tempt God.

So repent...


God bless

 

[Jonah2005bt]

I agree, OSAS = once saved, always saved = FALSE TEACHING!

OSAS = once saved, always saved = false teaching.

Thank you Coconut.

 

[linkage]

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Eze 18:26
It would be foolish to pronounce a man dead after hes been saved from certain death would it not?
The question should be, is GOD a man that He should lie?
The answer is written in His Word, "let GODS word be true and every man [who contradicts Him] a liar."

Are you referring to righteousness kept up by works?

Christ makes us righteous, correct? Correct. If we are kept righteous by the works of ourselves, we are badly kept and are doomed because we all sin. Whoever says they are justified by works, I want to ask what was Jesus' death for if you help earn your salvation? Righteousness comes from Christ. If you turn away from Christ, you will go to hell because your sins remain.

I believe you are eternally secure as long as you have Jesus. Its as simple as walking back and forth from under and umbrella. If you aren't under it, you stay wet. If you're under it, you stay dry

 

[jiggyfly]

I believe you are eternally secure as long as you have Jesus. Its as simple as walking back and forth from under and umbrella. If you aren't under it, you stay wet. If you're under it, you stay dry
07-20-06 07:53 PM

Amen Linkage good analogy.

 

[Buddy2]

I believe it's "Conditional Security" and the only condition is true heart known belief in the saving work of Jesus. I still sin in thought and action, though I believe in Jesus. I'm not perfect , but He is. I confess my sins to God and believe in His forgiveness. This does not give me the right to plan out sin. Because that would mean that I truly don't believe. God knows our hearts and our weaknesses. Thank You God and I'm Sorry.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Is it not possible for one to choose to walk out from under the umbrella and get soaked?


SLE

 

[jiggyfly]

Is it not possible for one to choose to walk out from under the umbrella and get soaked?
SLE

I have to disagree. John 15:1-8 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that doesn't produce fruit, and He prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned for greater fruitfulness by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful apart from me.Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me and I in them,will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who parts from me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you stay joined to me and my words remain in you, you may ask any request and it will be granted! My true disciples produce much fruit. This brings great glory to my Father."

 

[linkage]

I have to disagree. John 15:1-8 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that doesn't produce fruit, and He prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned for greater fruitfulness by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful apart from me.Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me and I in them,will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who parts from me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you stay joined to me and my words remain in you, you may ask any request and it will be granted! My true disciples produce much fruit. This brings great glory to my Father."

Cut off is refering to fellowship. Withering is refrence to loss of vitality. Your faith is dead, meaning it has no works in it. Being burned is loss of reward. I Corinthians 3:11-15 teaches this. If this were referring to salvation it would completely contradict Pauls teaching, who seemed not to be able to stress enough that it is by grace you are saved. Paul tells the Galatians who were at first doing great in being strong in grace until someone said to maintain their salvation, they must do some sort of work. He stressed severely this is not the case. Do you see the contradiction? The Bible is not contradictory to itself.

If not by grace, then how else are we saved? What other way is there? It is either faith or works. There is no inbetween. If you want to get to heaven by good deeds or keeping the law...Good luck.

But, I will say this. Someone with true faith is going to have good works. If someone hears the gospel and runs out and continues in his or her life as is, i'm certain it is not true. True faith will bring happiness and peace and willingness to submit to God. No way around it.

 

[jiggyfly]

Cut off is refering to fellowship. Withering is refrence to loss of vitality. Your faith is dead, meaning it has no works in it. Being burned is loss of reward. I Corinthians 3:11-15 teaches this. If this were referring to salvation it would completely contradict Pauls teaching, who seemed not to be able to stress enough that it is by grace you are saved. Paul tells the Galatians who were at first doing great in being strong in grace until someone said to maintain their salvation, they must do some sort of work. He stressed severely this is not the case. Do you see the contradiction? The Bible is not contradictory to itself.
If not by grace, then how else are we saved? What other way is there? It is either faith or works. There is no inbetween. If you want to get to heaven by good deeds or keeping the law...Good luck.
But, I will say this. Someone with true faith is going to have good works. If someone hears the gospel and runs out and continues in his or her life as is, i'm certain it is not true. True faith will bring happiness and peace and willingness to submit to God. No way around it.

I guess I misunderstood you in your posts and now I'm not sure where you stand concerning OSAS. I was raised up in the OSAS false doctrine. The Holy Spirit had to reveal to me the Truth concerning "eternal security" but I had to seek the truth before it was revealed to me. Most people read what they believe few believe what they read.

Paul also told the Church in Galatia ( born-again belivers) that if they tried to keep the law inorder to please God that they were cut off from Christ. Now you can say it is referring to fellowship and it is . If you are cut off from fellowship with Christ well that just proves the issue right there now doesn't it.

 

[linkage]

I guess I misunderstood you in your posts and now I'm not sure where you stand concerning OSAS. I was raised up in the OSAS false doctrine. The Holy Spirit had to reveal to me the Truth concerning "eternal security" but I had to seek the truth before it was revealed to me. Most people read what they believe few believe what they read.
Paul also told the Church in Galatia ( born-again belivers) that if they tried to keep the law inorder to please God that they were cut off from Christ. Now you can say it is referring to fellowship and it is . If you are cut off from fellowship with Christ well that just proves the issue right there now doesn't it.

Cut off from fellowship of the church. That verse goes on to say that he will continue pruning the believers that do produce fruit. He cuts them off from fellowship so that no one else may fall into sin. You are saved by grace through faith. Salvation is not kept or attained by any works that we do. Its really simple.

No one who trusts in Christ will ever be put to shame. What do you think trusting in Christ is all about? Just trust Him for your past sins and then you can't sin from that point on?

Its a shame people always say any mention of fire is refering to hell. When a believer goes through fire, it is never condemnation. Study the scripture, man. When believers go to the judgement throne to have our life in Christ judged, it is never to condemn us, it is to test our works. To see how faithful we were. Otherwise scripture would contradict itself.

"If we are faithless, He remains faithful". Humans always have points where they are faithless. If you say you're without sin, you deceive yourself.

This is what Paul is saying. But he also says "Is this a license to sin? Certainly not!"

You can't just take a verse in the Bible for what it appears to be. Salvation from something as serious as hell is not dangled over your head, being threatened that it will be thrown away. Even myself, a sinner, wouldn't do that to even an enemy. I'm sure God wouldn't do it, being infinitely loving.

 

[jiggyfly]

Cut off from fellowship of the church. That verse goes on to say that he will continue pruning the believers that do produce fruit. He cuts them off from fellowship so that no one else may fall into sin. You are saved by grace through faith. Salvation is not kept or attained by any works that we do. Its really simple.
No one who trusts in Christ will ever be put to shame. What do you think trusting in Christ is all about? Just trust Him for your past sins and then you can't sin from that point on?
Its a shame people always say any mention of fire is refering to hell. When a believer goes through fire, it is never condemnation. Study the scripture, man. When believers go to the judgement throne to have our life in Christ judged, it is never to condemn us, it is to test our works. To see how faithful we were. Otherwise scripture would contradict itself.
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful". Humans always have points where they are faithless. If you say you're without sin, you deceive yourself.
This is what Paul is saying. But he also says "Is this a license to sin? Certainly not!"
You can't just take a verse in the Bible for what it appears to be. Salvation from something as serious as hell is not dangled over your head, being threatened that it will be thrown away. Even myself, a sinner, wouldn't do that to even an enemy. I'm sure God wouldn't do it, being infinitely loving.
.

Again I'll say that most read only what they believe and few believe what they read. I don't agree at all with your interpretation of these scriptures. No where in John 15:1-8 does Jesus talk about or refer to the church. He said that He is the vine and we are the branches. What are you connected with? Another branch? I am connected to the Vine. Further more read many of Jesus' parables, "the seed and the sower", the "ten virgins" the "prodigal son" and the list goes on.

 

[Fellowservant]

I think what we are trying to say here is only God can cut off the saint, if he falls into rebellion and unbelief. And only God can graft him back in, but this again involves faith as well. Like i said, i wouldn't mess with it.


"Quote... linkage"

Salvation from something as serious as hell is not dangled over your head, being threatened that it will be thrown away. Even myself, a sinner, wouldn't do that to even an enemy. I'm sure God wouldn't do it, being infinitely loving.

"End Quote"


Thats why the word says that Gods thoughts are not our thoughts, and Gods ways are not our ways. Job was asked by God, shall a man be more righteous than his maker?
Or shall the thing that is formed, say to the one who formed it, why have you made me like this?



Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Heres a question, was Judas OSAS? he was called but not chosen. Jesus called him the son of perdition, this was a man who even cast out devils in his name. Just in case some say he wasn't saved because the holy ghost was not yet given, then was Ananias, and and his wife Sapphira OSAS? then why did they fall dead after lieing to the Holy Ghost? did God just kill them so that the Church would be fearful of the apostles?

The God you say that is so loveing has no way to judge sin then. We must be careful, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and the saints are required to believe and repent of thier sins, or a fearfull judgement awaits them (outerdarkness or lake of fire), and that my friends is what i see all through the bible, and im talking new testament here, not the old.


Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


I mean Jesus either means what he says here, or he doesn't, you be the judge.


Paul says over and over, be not decieved...


God bless

 

[SpiritLedEd]

"The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." (1 Sam 16:7)

Man cannot judge with absolute certainty whether or not a person is truly saved. Over the centuries multiple thousands of people have "walked the walk" until a hidden (from other people) character defect erupted and the person fell into sin and final condemnation.

Jesus spoke of such people in the Parable of the Four Soils: "Still others, like seed among thorns, hear the word, but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of riches and the desire for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." (Mk 4:18-19)

SLE.

 

[jiggyfly]

"The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." (1 Sam 16:7)
Man cannot judge with absolute certainty whether or not a person is truly saved. Over the centuries multiple thousands of people have "walked the walk" until a hidden (from other people) character defect erupted and the person fell into sin and final condemnation.
Jesus spoke of such people in the Parable of the Four Soils: "Still others, like seed among thorns, hear the word, but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of riches and the desire for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." (Mk 4:18-19)
SLE.

Amen SLE, but it seems that many misunderstand this parable because it doesn't fit OSAS and then they find themselves having to adjust the rest of Jesus' teaching to support their deceiption. Jesus said if you can't understand this parable how will you understand any of the others.

 

[jiggyfly]

(Quote by SLE) Is it not possible for one to choose to walk out from under the umbrella and get soaked?

I have to disagree. John 15:1-8 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that doesn't produce fruit, and He prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned for greater fruitfulness by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful apart from me.Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me and I in them,will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who parts from me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you stay joined to me and my words remain in you, you may ask any request and it will be granted! My true disciples produce much fruit. This brings great glory to my Father."

I must appologize SLE I totally misread your post above, please forgive me, ( I got the it and is mixed araound).