Fellowservant said:I think what we are trying to say here is only God can cut off the saint, if he falls into rebellion and unbelief. And only God can graft him back in, but this again involves faith as well. Like i said, i wouldn't mess with it.
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Salvation from something as serious as hell is not dangled over your head, being threatened that it will be thrown away. Even myself, a sinner, wouldn't do that to even an enemy. I'm sure God wouldn't do it, being infinitely loving.
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Thats why the word says that Gods thoughts are not our thoughts, and Gods ways are not our ways. Job was asked by God, shall a man be more righteous than his maker?
Or shall the thing that is formed, say to the one who formed it, why have you made me like this?
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Heres a question, was Judas OSAS? he was called but not chosen. Jesus called him the son of perdition, this was a man who even cast out devils in his name. Just in case some say he wasn't saved because the holy ghost was not yet given, then was Ananias, and and his wife Sapphira OSAS? then why did they fall dead after lieing to the Holy Ghost? did God just kill them so that the Church would be fearful of the apostles?
The God you say that is so loveing has no way to judge sin then. We must be careful, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and the saints are required to believe and repent of thier sins, or a fearfull judgement awaits them (outerdarkness or lake of fire), and that my friends is what i see all through the bible, and im talking new testament here, not the old.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I mean Jesus either means what he says here, or he doesn't, you be the judge.
Paul says over and over, be not decieved...
God bless
Paul is referring to Israel who rejected their savior. They never once believed in Jesus and Judas never believed. If he did, i'm sure he wouldn't have betrayed the one who was going to save him. That in itself proved he didn't truely believe.
I'm not saying one should turn away from Jesus or could do so and have his cake and eat it too. I'm saying all that gets you into heaven is Jesus. It is not anything you can do yourself. If you believe otherwise, you live in a contradiction. Jesus is the only way to heaven. You can't help yourself get there at all. If you miss out on heaven because of rebellion..we're all going to hell. We all sin. Repentence isn't what saves. Christ is what saves. Repentence is the softening of the heart and the willingness to turn to Christ and His ways. But it does not save you...It is required for salvation, but it does not save you, understand? You can't accept Jesus unless you have a change of heart.
I will say that someone who really loves and believes in what Jesus did for him, he/she will not stay the same person he/she has always been. There will be some kind of change. But its ridiculous to say that Jesus died for your sins and then say if you enter into rebellion, Jesus can't save you because you're doing what you always do. Sinning.
God judges the heart, yes. He can see whether or not it has Christ in it. Remaining in His goodness is having Jesus. There is no other way to be good. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Saying your salvation is based on any works of your own is saying Christ couldn't do it all.
Its really very simple..but I would never take the risk of offending God by choosing to be who I used to be and walking in disbelief. Even if someone who turned away from the faith were still saved, they would have God to answer to. I'm sure that would not be a fun time.
Thats about as clear as I can make it.
See ya, guys.