Once Saved Always Saved and Conditional Security

[spirit1st]

You know many , born of GOD sin in there flesh lots. Many times never knowing it?
As you know? we can sin in our minds , but hating or disliking or lusting after flesh or objects or other ways?

Since we do not always see sin as sin? we do not always know when this has occurred? But we know the wages of sin is DEATH!
and many are sick because of sins!
of course even then , the LORD has provided as in JAMES!

We like to think, we play a part in salvation, we do not , we do play a great part in our rewards!

many feel the flesh plays a part in salvation, it could not as it has a sin nature and cannot help but sin, still we are to control it though our spirit!

I do not think many understand salvation or the GREAT and Wonderful thing the LORD has done for those who have accepted HIm as LORD and HIS gospel.

We no longer have a choice once we give ourselves to HIM. And that is what salvation is? We give our selves to HIm.then we NO longer belong to our selves but to HIM 100%.


Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

This scripture tells us ? As HE is in HEAVEN [NEW JERUSALEM] We are here!
If this is true! Which I do not doubt it. Then HE would not sin , nor4 will we !
Of course this is talking about our eternal part. Our Spirit!

There are many scriptures that tell us this truth. few are taught them or even study them?


Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

You know? It is a funny thing about mankind? They will accept some guys teachings, Yet reject the living WORD!

All scripture is TRUE! All scripture fits together perfectly!

Not bragging, But I see the new testament perfectly together as we all should.
The question is? Will we follow our LORD JESUS CHRIST and be willing to be taught by HIM? Though the POWER of the HOLY GHOST, or follow a preacher or teacher?

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

This will offend many, as many follow mankind and not our LORD!

The LORD only got mad at me once, when I know ? He should have many times!

He asked me once? Are you going to follow ME or that preacher?
I was very fearful as I did not know , I was following a preacher !

I said ? YOU LORD ! HE said ? DO IT THEN.

He said? DO IT THEN.
After that , I set my eyes on HIM only!

Now many get upset with me.thinking I should be under a preacher or teacher or some other person!


1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

We just ASK HIM and HE will reveal a thing or show us anything we need or want to know?

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;

Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

AND if we want more of GODS HOLY GHOST in us? We just ASK. But of course few use HIM or ask HIM anything ?

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


Other than maybe salvation? The greatest gift our FATHER could give us , was a part of HIMSELF!

 

[aaroncam85]

i believe the part that is conditional is when God says if you believe you will have eternal life but i believe after that it is eternal because God says we can not be taken from his hand.

 

[spirit1st]

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[jeep27030]

Do you want to take the chance?

I do not believe that once your saved your always saved. There are hundreds of verses going against that. The Bible says that no sin will enter Heaven. If you choose to sin after you get saved the Bible says that there is nothing left for you to cover those sins. I am being tempted constantly to sin to where it is almost unbearable. Why would satan bother to tempt you after you get saved? If you are going to Heaven anyway, why bother? I never had a battle with sin until after I got saved. If you are on your way to Hell, satan will just continue to do what he is doing. When you get saved is when the fight starts. He is fighting for your soul. The Bible says NO SIN can enter Heaven. If you decide to trample on the blood of Jesus by continuing to sin after you have been saved, I am positive that if you do not want to go to Heaven God will not drag you into Heaven kicking and screaming. Don't take a chance on a belief that satan has put into so many minds. It is not ok to live in sin after you have been saved.

 

[spirit1st]

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


How long are the ELECT PERFECTED?
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
The bible is talking about the called , that do not all make it!

We are called , tried and tested . Then many will be chosen, others will not be!


All the called , think they are SAVED. They are not!


Saved is a NEW CREATURE, a person BORN OF GOD! A NEW CREATION, MADE after the pattern JESUS CHRIST! These cannot sin nor fall. They have HIS MIND and NATURE!

This same thread is on every site I go to!

There is not one side or the other with scripture! Thyey all fit perfectly together ! One scripture cannot say one thing and another a different thing. They are ALL TRUTH! The question then becomes?

HOW can ALL be correct at the same time? Because the are All correct!

 

[Pentecostal]

I've heard many say the Apostle Paul was a staunch defender ot eh Eternal Security doctrine, BUT if this were true Paul would never have written 1st Coprinthians 9 verse 27 (Under the influence of the Holy Ghost [>2nd Peter 1:20-21<])

1st Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

While it is certainly true that no (OTHER) individual can take us out of Gods hands, WE can forfeit our own salvation by way of sin, and no the Bible does NOT teach that future sins are already forgiven.

The scripture used as a defense for that idea (Hebrews 10:10) actually defends the fact that God's hearts first desire and intent is that anyone and eveyrone anywhere and everywhere have an equal opprotunity to hear the gospel message and by way of their own personal free will be able to choose to accept, or reject the offer of the gift of eternal life by faith through Jesus Christ.

Once Saved Always Saved is (In My Personal Humble Opinion) a fools gamble, certainly NOT worth the bet considering the eventual consequences which await those who may NOT be as eternally secure
as think they are.

 

[Cody]

1 Corinthians 9:27
"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." KJV

This verse tells us to deny the flesh. You have a spirit and you have a flesh. Your spirit is saved, but at the same time you need to deny your flesh to be in good fellowship with God.

If a preacher isn't denying his flesh, then he'll get out of fellowship with God to where he can't minister to people.

I believe Jesus knows all my past, present and future sins. He knew what I would do ahead of time and I believe His Blood is good enough to forgive EVERYONE of my sins.

Mark 3:28
"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:" KJV

In my honest opinion, someone who doesn't think God can keep them saved is trusting their good works to get to Heaven. If that Blood can't save me, I don't know what can.

Praise His Holy Name!!!

 

[jeep27030]

I appreciate your opinion. I want to point out that God wants to save everyone. However, Gods power is not in question. He is more than able to keep us saved. Notice that almost every verse that has to do with eternal security says IF. If means if, there are stipulations to His promises. If you have a pure heart before God this doctrine doesn't hurt you. I am trying to help those who think they can do whatever they want after being saved and still make it to Heaven. This is simply a doctrine that we can not take a chance on. We put our Faith in Jesus and He will never let us go. But will we let Him go is the question. Are we so sure that God will continue to forgive our sins after we are saved if we only trample the blood of Jesus by living in sin after we have been saved? without asking for forgiveness? Read Hebrews 10:26-29. Wouldn't we be worse off than before as the Bible says? God bless you

 

[spirit1st]

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.


Here is the problem?
Living in FEAR daily of losing salvation is Not the way we are to live our lives!
Knowing HE is able and will keep us is .
We live by FAITH trusting in HIm .
It appears to me? Know we are HIS is much better and thinking daily we could be in hell by dark!

Which I know is untrue!

But our understanding will always see things wrong . I know many think they are helping GOD and others with some of these thoughts. But He does not operate like we think many times.
The KINGDOM is not based on our works or deeds.


I find when we know the TRUTh? We LOVE HIM more and know sin hurts HIm and NEVER ever want to sin again.

fear does not keep us in check. What it does is, say well I guess it does not matter . if I sin or not. I cannot live perfectly so why care.
LOVE says? HE lOVES me and forgives me. I never want to sin again.

Very different I think.
But HIS ways are different from the world or different from our thinking!
LOVE REALLY does conqueror ALL. it changes our thinking and causes us to not want to do anything that is evil .

LOVE is the BEST motivator not fear!

FEAR is force
LOVE is willing!

We live under LOVE!
LOVE gives mercy!

 

[Cody]

Amen to that spirit1st.

If you all have to live in fear to serve the Lord than I'm worried about you all. Don't get me wrong, I fear the Lord, but Love is what provokes me to live for Him. You need to realize that everyday you're a filthy good for nothing rag that is full of sin(Isaiah 64:6). But, there is one thing and one thing only that can cleanse that, the Blood of Christ(1 Peter 1:19). After you look at what you are, a filthy rag, then look at God's love for you even though you're a sinner(Romans 5:8). Why wouldn't that love fuel you to live for the Lord the best you could?

My advice for you is to help people live for the Lord. Don't scare them into thinking they can lose their salvation. Tell them about the judgment seat of Christ and the crowns we'll receive when we get up there. Just think about it. We're going to have to give an account what we did, even though we're saved whether it was good or bad.

2 Corinthians 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." KJV

I can't nor will I ever want to disown my Heavenly Father. Notice this next verse...

Matthew 7:23
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." KJV

Notice what He says, "I NEVER knew you". You see that? God will say I NEVER knew you. That means He did not know that person any at all. If we get saved, then God knows us. God can't tell us without lying He never knew us. Are you saying that God is going to lie? I doubt that.

Romans 3:4
"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." KJV

I don't know how any saved person can sin and not feel guilty? Usually when I sin the Holy Spirit tells me about it. Usually when I sin God chastises me afterwards. If God ain't whipping you, you better be worried. You all need to quit telling people they're not saved and look at your own filthy self.

God Bless

 

[jeep27030]

I agree with you 100 percent. We are not to live in fear that we might loose our salvation. God is not a bully but full of love. More than we will ever comprehend. I am in not in fear of my salvation being lost because I am like you, I do not want to hurt God by choosing to sin. The reason I say what I do about being able to lose salvation is that I personally know of some people who have been saved. They lived a good Christian life for years. Gradually they would give in to temptation here and there and then get to busy to read the Bible then next thing you know they are living more of a sinful life than most sinners. I know that they were once on fire for God yet now barely acknowledge His exsistance. Some argue that they must have never really been saved in the first place. I know they were. I have went through times that the temptation, the fight, the pressure, the persecution seemed more than I could bare. I barely get through a day without constantly fighting off evil. So if I can barely do it then some people do in fact give up and are disqualified (according to Paul.) I think that works are in our flesh and not our spirit. If our spirit follows works then wouldn't our spirits eventually follow satan as before. 1 Tim 5:15 I think it is a gradual process and people deceive themselves and over time just fall back to where they use to be. I am not arguing with you at all. In fact I love to talk about this kind of thing to get more insight of God and His word. I am humbly and sincerely asking you that if some of my friends and relatives who were saved without question are now following satan to the point of saying that I am demon possessed for believing in God with all my heart, that if they would suddenly die that God would let them enter Heaven in that sinful condition, in spite of their blasphemy and abundant sin? This subject is hard to explain from both sides. I believe what you are saying, yet I see another side in wich satan fights relentlessly for our souls, why would he fight so hard if he can not win them anyway? Thanks again for your help and opinions, James

 

[Cody]

First of all, I want to let you know I love you in Christ.

But, when you can prove to me that you're God and you know who is saved or not, then I'll believe people can lose their salvation. Are you telling me that you actually know if a person is saved or not? Brother, all we can do is guess and hope at that. Who are you to say that I'm lost or saved and who am I to say that you're lost or saved. God is the judge and only He knows all things.

1 John 3:20
"For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." KJV

satan is a good for nothing liar(I don't even capitalize his name lol). he can't take away what God gave us. All he can do is make our life a living Hell and he can only do that if we let him. We are told to obey the spirit and when we do that we won't fall for the lies of the devil. We are to deny the flesh and the devil.

James 4:7
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." KJV

If no man can pluck us out of the Father's hand, then the devil can't do nothing! All he is going to do is try and get us out of fellowship with the Lord and that's all he can do.

John 10:28
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." KJV

 

[rizen1]

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

How can you unearned a gift you never earned ?

 

[Cody]

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

How can you unearned a gift you never earned ?

Amen, sister!

 

[Pedronewt]

If a loving God wouldn't force me into salvation, why should I suppose that once "saved" He would constrain me in that state against my will?


Would somebody like to define "salvation" for clarification purposes. This might help bring understanding to the differing view points.

 

[Cody]

After experiencing being saved, truly believing in Jesus Christ, why would someone want to run away from salvation? If someone does that, I doubt they truly got saved. His love brought you to belief and His love will keep you in belief, without force.

 

[Pentecostal]

The thing you are all saying is this. A person (unsaved sinner) can go to God in prayer, confess their sins, ask Gods forgiveness for those sins, and be forgiven be saved and become a born again Christian.

At that moment that person is eternally secure, that individual can never lose their salvation.

IF this is correct, then that individual CAN without fear of any future consequence of anykind simply go back into their former way of living commioting any wrongful acts of sin they wish to commit and NOT be guilty of any wrongdoing, and God cannot and will not hold them accountable for their sins.

A thief can steal and not be held accountable, a murderer can kill and not be held accountable, a child molester can molest innocent children and never be held accountable for his/her actions, a liarcan lie and never ve held accountable for the lies they tell.

A person who is severely suicidal can simply ask Gods forgiveness for their past sins, and then put a shotgun to theri head and blow their head off their shoulders and go to heaven immediately.

Sorry folks but the dioctrine of Eternal Security has too many gaping holes in it and not enouigh Biblical evidence to fill those gaping holes up.

Paul said ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine not a few here and a few there. Anyone can take one or two scriptures and build what seems to be a Biblically correct doctrine on them.

I choose to believe the full truth of the word of God.

For those who have said I am trying to get saved by my own works, that is the worst accusation anyone could make, I am confident ONLY in the finished work of the cross of Christ and nothing else.

My obedience of Gods commandments is based on one thing, my LOVE for my redeemer, Jesus said IF you love me keep (OBEY) my commandments!

This statement by Jesus says: Those who obey his commandments DO love him, and those who do not, don't.

 

[Cody]

IF this is correct, then that individual CAN without fear of any future consequence of anykind simply go back into their former way of living commioting any wrongful acts of sin they wish to commit and NOT be guilty of any wrongdoing, and God cannot and will not hold them accountable for their sins.

You speak like you don't know the power of the love of God.

Paul said ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine not a few here and a few there. Anyone can take one or two scriptures and build what seems to be a Biblically correct doctrine on them.

2 Timothy 2:15
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." KJV

You need to start rightly dividing the word of truth. All the Bible is true and all of the Bible is "for" us, but not all of the Bible is "to" us. We have to divide things up like the Jew, the Gentile and the church(us).

For those who have said I am trying to get saved by my own works, that is the worst accusation anyone could make, I am confident ONLY in the finished work of the cross of Christ and nothing else.

My obedience of Gods commandments is based on one thing, my LOVE for my redeemer, Jesus said IF you love me keep (OBEY) my commandments!

This statement by Jesus says: Those who obey his commandments DO love him, and those who do not, don't. [/B]

Do you always keep the commandments? Have you went a week without sinning? How good of a person do you think yourself to be? Do you think that me, a person that believes God can keep me till the very end will just do whatever I want? Eternal Security doesn't provoke me to sin, it provokes me to stay close to the God that loves me when I'm in the wrong and when I'm in the right.

His love is Great!

 

[Pedronewt]

After experiencing being saved, truly believing in Jesus Christ, why would someone want to run away from salvation? If someone does that, I doubt they truly got saved.

Are you telling me that you actually know if a person is saved or not? Brother, all we can do is guess and hope at that...God is the judge and only He knows all things.

Also, if being saved means

truly believing in Jesus Christ

then demons are saved.
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19

Believing must mean more than cognitive acknowledgment.

Jesus states in John 17:3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

the greek word here for "know" means an experiential knowledge. The only way to gain this type of knowledge is through relationship. In order for their to be relationship there must be bi-directional communication going on. In other words, I can't have a relationship with a rock or a robot, it must be with something that can freely communicate back. For their to be open communication there must be common understanding and common humility. If either are lacking, it creates a break in relationship. If one party is unwilling there can be no communication and therefore no relationship.

How this relates to our discussion is:
God's love is unconditional - it is not dependent upon us
Relationship is always conditional - while God is always wanting to be in relationship with us, for some crazy irrational reason, we don't always want to relate to Him. We want are way. And if we want it bad enough and long enough, God being the gentleman He is will give it let us have it, even though it means separation from Him.

why would someone want to run away from salvation?

Sin is always illogical and irrational. I think it even baffles our heavenly Father.
Isaiah 5:4 - What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

 

[Pentecostal]

You speak like you don't know the power of the love of God.

Please do not accuse me of something that is definitely NOT true!

If anyone knows and fully understands the love of God, I certainly do!

MY parents were separated during the last few months that my Mother was pregnant with me.

Their divorce was finalized the day I was born, June 15 1952. My fathers parents took me home from the hospital.

From the moment I was able to comprehend the things he was saying my Grandfather constantly told me I was stupid, a failure and that I would NEVER be good for anything.

I had a mild form of polio as an infant (rickets) and was unable to walk until I was nearly three years old.

As a small child I was the victim of verbal abuse, physical abuse and sexual abuse, I was sodomized by an uncle the first time when I was 7 years old and this sexual abuse continued until I was 14 years old and probably would have continued had I not come within a heartbeat of splattering his perverted brains all over our living room with a .410 shotgun!

I smoked my first cigarette when I was 8 years old, took my first drink of whiskey when I was 10 years old, tried drugs for the time when I was 12 years old, by the time I enlisted in the army at 18 I was a well seasoned drug addict and alcoholic.

I attempted suicide more than once, and yes I did fully intend to take my life, it was NOT an attempt to get attention or to get others to feel sorry for me, I didn’t give a crap about anyone else (especially myself) so I certainly didn’t care if they gave a crap about me!

I grew up running with the worst of the worst, constantly getting into serious trouble I was expelled from school at 15 for nearly killing a classmate in a fist fight, for which I was given 5 years of supervised probation!

I should have served time but never did why I do NOT know!

One of the friends I grew up with recently passed away while serving a sentence of life without parole on a murder conviction.

Most of my childhood friends are dead now, most of them having died violently.

When I did get saved it was NOT because a ‘Christian’ came to make a personal visit to my house to tell me about Jesus, I had been watching a television evangelist (not Billy Graham) preaching about this Jesus on a local late night TV program.

None of the local denominational ‘Church’ Christians in our neighborhood EVER came to me and told me God loved me, fact is I sincerely doubt they even knew of the love of God themselves.

As far as the local ‘Church’ Christians were concerned my wife and I were the scum of the earth, drug addicts, alcoholics, we were the trash o0f society and if we went to hell big deal!

BUT God reached out to us, on his own, with HIS love and compassion, without the help of these ‘Church’ Christians and drew us to him, and brought us to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

We were saved the BIBLE way, which is the ONLY right way and have been serving God as best as we are able to, with his help of course for nearly 18 years now.

I know what it means to be thrown away by those who are supposed to love you, I know what it means to be horribly abused by those who are supposed to love you, I know what it feels like to hate yourself so much that you want to die every moment of everyday of your life.

I also know what it really means to finally know that you are worth something and that there is someone who really does love you.

Please don’t ever tell me that I don’t know the love of God......

2 Timothy 2:15
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." KJV

You need to start rightly dividing the word of truth. All the Bible is true and all of the Bible is "for" us, but not all of the Bible is "to" us. We have to divide things up like the Jew, the Gentile and the church(us).[/B]

All the Bible is true and all the Bible is for us, BUT not all the Bibvle is to us? Wow, what a severe contradiciton of terms!

Exactly which parts of the Bible do you think are actually to us and not to us? That's something I believe lots of folks need to know.

Are the scriptures which promise eternal life to the believer to us?

What about those verses which command us to OBEY Gods commandments in the new testament, especially those spoken by Jesus?

Did he lie?

Are the promises of God to us? For us? Your theory could possibly insinuate that NONE of the promises of God are to us and make it a very strong probablity that none of us have the assurance of spending eternity in heaven!

Even redemption is becomes a doubtful assurance according to this assumption!

Just so you know, I have thoroughly investigated the word of God, which is really what Paul meant when he said to rightly divide the word of truth

Do you always keep the commandments? Have you went a week without sinning? How good of a person do you think yourself to be? Do you think that me, a person that believes God can keep me till the very end will just do whatever I want? Eternal Security doesn't provoke me to sin, it provokes me to stay close to the God that loves me when I'm in the wrong and when I'm in the right.

Of course I don't go a week without sinning, but when I am fully aware that I have sinned I do what the Bible says I must do to be forgiven 0f that sin (1st John 1:9) do you? I pray daily more than once and even I am not aware of sins that I may have committed I confess that I am a sinner who is always in need of the compassionate saving grace of God and I plead desperately and tearfully with him for his forgiveness (Luke 18:12).

I am not so arrogant as to think I am above the laws and commandments of God! And I am certainly NOT so indifferent to the terrible suffering that was endured by my redeemer to think that I can go thorugh my life trampling underfoot the sweet precious blood that he shed when he bled to death to purchase my salvation!

Eternal security DOES provoke the person who trust in it to believe that if they do sin, God doesn't care.

His love is Great!

I agree but he certainly deserves a sincere daily expression of our own love in return. (John 14:15) Conclusion of the entire matter, you WORK out your own salvation (Phillipians 2:12) and I will my own...