ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED? YES and NO!

[vhusley]

So, let's try this again. I will give you another chance to see if you can truly grasp what I am attempting to show and to see if you are able to respond without getting your hackles up and screaming "heresy!"

Saved by the cross means spared from the punishment of our sin.

I actually fully agree with that definition. So, if you have already BEEN (fully) saved (past tense), then according to your understanding and the definition you just gave......this means you have already stood before God and faced the "punishment of your sin" and He has already spared you from it?

To suggest we are not saved when we confess our sins is to suggest repentance from anyone does not pass God's judgement Jer 17:9-10

So again, I ask you....Have you already stood before God's judgement? Is repentance a one-time deal or is it granted to us as an ongoing process to take place as long as we are living? What did the Apostle Paul mean we he said, "I die DAILY...."?

To suggest God temporarily accepts the repentance of someone is to imply He cannot truly judge the heart.

Was there a point in anything that I posted where I suggested that God only accepts repentance temporarily? Is it possible that we could turn your statement around and suggest that "it is God who grants us repentance and it is beholden to us to accept it and walk in it daily?" Could it be that WE at some point in our relationship with God could develop an unrepentant heart....even after initial repentance? Could that be what God's Word is referring to in so many places when it refers to man's heart being "hardened"?

To suggest a single decision from the depth of our heart is not good enough for God is to imply that the single act by Jesus on the cross is equally meaningless. Jesus must keep dying for us before we believe He really loves us?

Is anything WE can do or offer really "good enough" for God? Isn't our righteousness "as filthy rags" before Him? Isn't it ONLY by the grace and mercy of God that He grants us repentance and thereby gives us access to the Cross? Aren't we expected to "take up our cross daily" and "die daily" to the flesh and to sin and to the temptations of the world if we truly belong to Him? And finally, aren't you creating a false dichotomy here when you are equating a single decision from the (wicked) heart of a man to Jesus' act of sacrifice on the cross?

A single decision at a depth of intent is all it takes.

Is this biblical?

This is why those who die for Jesus in the tribulation get an eternal crown Rev 2:10.

Are you certain? Will those who "endure to the end" during the Great Tribulation have the Holy Ghost present here on Earth? Are these of whom Jesus speaks (in Matthew) and of whom John the Revelator speaks (in Revelation) being saved the same way? Will the Spirit be present on Earth to indwell them, guard them, and guide them? Or at some point, will the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit be removed?

Heresy, heresy, heresy! False teaching

Are we having a civil discussion? Is this language one would typically use in a civil discussion?

 

[Johann]

While I typically would not answer a question with another question.....here is a question that I believe truly gets to the heart of the matter of salvation:

Are we "saved" now (in life) or are we "BEING SAVED"? It is my contention from both personal experience as well as from an exegetical study of God's Word....that "salvation" won't actually happen until the Day of Judgement. It is on that day that the born-again believers who endured to the end will be truly "SAVED" and spared God's wrath in judgement. It is also on that day that the lost will be judged and face condemnation. Until that day (or essentially until the rapture or until I take my last breath on Earth - whichever comes first) by God's grace, through Faith, and by the ongoing sanctification of the Holy Spirit.....I am BEING SAVED.

Technically speaking..."Saved" is past tense, and that is how the vast majority of Christians seem to apply it....meaning it was an "act" that occurred one time in my past which stands on the (false) assumption that the "thing" from which I was saved has already occurred. The vast majority of scripture that I have read does not seem to line up with that position.

If a person claims to be "saved" now.....in this life......it leads one to then ask, "What have you been saved from already?" I know this may sound like "mincing words" or just an argument based on semantics, but it's actually much deeper than that.....especially if we truly want to explore what it means to "be saved."
Hebrews 12:1-17
1 Corinthians 9:24-27

Salvation is a present reality for believers in Christ, no question about it.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[vhusley]

Salvation is a present reality for believers in Christ, no question about it.
Shalom
Johann.

Thank you, but I obviously have questions about iit….as apparently do hundreds of thousands of other believers who don’t see the doctrines of instant sanctification and eternal security as biblically sound.

 

[I believe 777]

Hi i just would like to say this salvation if one comes into this forum and starts to read people's interpretation on saved or salvation they would be so confused imagine giving the good news to a unbeliever and right after that comes well now that you are saved here is things you can't do should not do stay away from do not associate with these people don't watch these things don't look at these things slay the flesh die to it daily and to be sure you are saved keep enduring to the end to be saved and so forth

well i don't know about you but this does not seem like a good news message to me that even a child could come to Jesus and understand his message of Grace and forgiveness. Did God not do it all and did all that is required to be saved? or does a human need to do something to be saved or maybe keep themselves saved ?

I have been on many christian forums form every denomination and i can tell you that you would have not a clue which one is the right way to be saved from Gods' wrath and eternal judgment reading through all of the requirements and different opinions from people in these forums.

Well the old testament way seems more simple than people trying today telling people they are not saved because of something they are doing or looking at or involved with and the list could go on and on but the jews only had to sacrifice a lamb once a year for there sins all of of their sins to be forgiven wow now that is really simple and reassuring to those people at the time.

Imagine moses telling the people who entered his house before he put the blood around the door so that the angel of death would pass by and not kill them that you have to not sin and have you looked at another women and lusted after her have you cursed cheated lied lusted and if you have you can not enter well we know the story that did not happen because if it would nobody would have been able to enter the house covered by the lambs blood because those were not the requirements.

All were allowed in that did not wish to die on that night, ALL those that wish to be saved from Gods wrath and eternal judgement well we will let paul speak


According to Paul and Silas, what did the jailer have to do to be saved?

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:31).

How is that different today?

It isn't.

Believe what about Jesus?

That " God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Romans 5:8-9). God, who is Holy and hates sin, ordained the death penalty as the punishment for sin: "For the wages of sin is death... " (Romans 6:23). Since sinners cannot pay the death penalty for other sinners, God, who loves us, came to earth Himself (see Birth of Jesus), lived a sinless life, and then voluntarily died on the cross (see Crucify Him) to pay the death penalty due for our sins, before rising from the dead (see John 20 and Resurrection of Jesus) to prove that He is God. Also see John 3:16

Today the message of forgiveness of sins seems to be very complicated in the christian community today and everybody fighting over which way or which doctrine is correct.

Is God the author of confusion answer is no but satan surely is and when we look at christians today and i have talked to many none can answer a direct yes to this question are you going to heaven or hell they don't know. Then one has to ask this question when did the good news of the gospel turn into confusion and uncertainty and really to be honest not such good news if it has all of these requirements and enduring to the end of i don't know what to be saved.

Imagine being called a coward and a false christian because my greatest hope is to see my Lord Jesus Christ appearing at the rapture and can't wait to be resurrected with my heavenly body but here we are today brothers and sisters fighting with each other about when we get to be with Jesus and at what time is his coming.

Question with so many christians having the holy spirit in them and he will teach us all truth according to the scriptures one has to wonder why we cant all see the same things like salvation which should not be an issue but is the biggest and most confusing topics in christianity today.

The holy spirit will teach the believers how to live in this world and teach us all truth according to the scriptures while waiting for our Lord Jesus to return and take us home.

this is what i give out online and print out for people


1 The Gospel Saves Us From A Place Called Hell

Why Was Jesus Christ Crucified On The Cross And Shed His Blood For Our Sins?

To Save Us From A Place Of Eternal Judgment And Punishment Called Hell

Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels." In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." HELL IS FOREVER! All who enter hell — abandon all hope!

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

Jesus Christ Saves Us The Good News Is He Paid The Price Which We Could Not

Testifying Both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, Repentance Toward God, and faith Toward our Lord Jesus Christ. acts 20:21).

We receive the holy spirit of Christ when we believe the gospel


1 Corinthians 15:1-6).

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.


Thessalonians 4: 13-181

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Believe on Hold on Put Your Trust In Have Faith In The Lord Jesus Christ And You Shall Be Saved

 

[Johann]

Thank you, but I obviously have questions about iit….as apparently do hundreds of thousands of other believers who don’t see the doctrines of instant sanctification and eternal security as biblically sound.

It is because they don't see the Perfect Tense in the Koine Greek, and this debate is going on for hundreds of years.
Shalom
Johann

 

[KingJ]

You are creating hypotheticals based on how you interpreted my post/response. And incidentally, your hypothetical is completely unrelated to the answer that I gave. Also, I am certainly not Calvinist in my belief, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to "defend" to me your approach to rebuking Calvinism. The doctrine of eternal security, coupled with the doctrines of irresistible grace and unconditional election (predestination) are based on faulty handling of scripture. The preponderance of scripture does not align with ANY of these doctrines.

You posted a Calvinistic line when you quoted Rom 9.

 

[KingJ]

This is so totally unrelated to anything that I said. How did you even extrapolate THIS from what I said about the thief? Did I ever once claim that a person could lose their "salvation" simply by committing a sin or falling into temptation after repentance? Or did you just presume that was what I believed? Perhaps you should not rely so heavily on your own "knowledge" or presumptions and open your mind to the possibility that not everyone who rejects the doctrine of eternal security does so for exactly the same reasons nor did we all follow the same doctrinal or exegetical path to come to that understanding.

The example of the salvation of the criminal next to Jesus on the cross debunks all anti-OSAS beliefs. It makes them look really silly. Shows all that the real belief the individual holds is one of God being a wicked fool.

But, sure, I am interested to hear your spin on an anti-OSAS belief.

Floor is yours, enlighten me on your take.

 

[vhusley]

Hi i just would like to say this salvation if one comes into this forum and starts to read people's interpretation on saved or salvation they would be so confused imagine giving the good news to a unbeliever and right after that comes well now that you are saved here is things you can't do should not do stay away from do not associate with these people don't watch these things don't look at these things slay the flesh die to it daily and to be sure you are saved keep enduring to the end to be saved and so forth

well i don't know about you but this does not seem like a good news message to me that even a child could come to Jesus and understand his message of Grace and forgiveness. Did God not do it all and did all that is required to be saved? or does a human need to do something to be saved or maybe keep themselves saved ?

I have been on many christian forums form every denomination and i can tell you that you would have not a clue which one is the right way to be saved from Gods' wrath and eternal judgment reading through all of the requirements and different opinions from people in these forums.

Well the old testament way seems more simple than people trying today telling people they are not saved because of something they are doing or looking at or involved with and the list could go on and on but the jews only had to sacrifice a lamb once a year for there sins all of of their sins to be forgiven wow now that is really simple and reassuring to those people at the time.

Imagine moses telling the people who entered his house before he put the blood around the door so that the angel of death would pass by and not kill them that you have to not sin and have you looked at another women and lusted after her have you cursed cheated lied lusted and if you have you can not enter well we know the story that did not happen because if it would nobody would have been able to enter the house covered by the lambs blood because those were not the requirements.

All were allowed in that did not wish to die on that night, ALL those that wish to be saved from Gods wrath and eternal judgement well we will let paul speak


According to Paul and Silas, what did the jailer have to do to be saved?

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:31).

How is that different today?

It isn't.

Believe what about Jesus?

That " God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Romans 5:8-9). God, who is Holy and hates sin, ordained the death penalty as the punishment for sin: "For the wages of sin is death... " (Romans 6:23). Since sinners cannot pay the death penalty for other sinners, God, who loves us, came to earth Himself (see Birth of Jesus), lived a sinless life, and then voluntarily died on the cross (see Crucify Him) to pay the death penalty due for our sins, before rising from the dead (see John 20 and Resurrection of Jesus) to prove that He is God. Also see John 3:16

Today the message of forgiveness of sins seems to be very complicated in the christian community today and everybody fighting over which way or which doctrine is correct.

Is God the author of confusion answer is no but satan surely is and when we look at christians today and i have talked to many none can answer a direct yes to this question are you going to heaven or hell they don't know. Then one has to ask this question when did the good news of the gospel turn into confusion and uncertainty and really to be honest not such good news if it has all of these requirements and enduring to the end of i don't know what to be saved.

Imagine being called a coward and a false christian because my greatest hope is to see my Lord Jesus Christ appearing at the rapture and can't wait to be resurrected with my heavenly body but here we are today brothers and sisters fighting with each other about when we get to be with Jesus and at what time is his coming.

Question with so many christians having the holy spirit in them and he will teach us all truth according to the scriptures one has to wonder why we cant all see the same things like salvation which should not be an issue but is the biggest and most confusing topics in christianity today.

The holy spirit will teach the believers how to live in this world and teach us all truth according to the scriptures while waiting for our Lord Jesus to return and take us home.

this is what i give out online and print out for people


1 The Gospel Saves Us From A Place Called Hell

Why Was Jesus Christ Crucified On The Cross And Shed His Blood For Our Sins?

To Save Us From A Place Of Eternal Judgment And Punishment Called Hell

Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels." In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." HELL IS FOREVER! All who enter hell — abandon all hope!

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

Jesus Christ Saves Us The Good News Is He Paid The Price Which We Could Not

Testifying Both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, Repentance Toward God, and faith Toward our Lord Jesus Christ. acts 20:21).

We receive the holy spirit of Christ when we believe the gospel


1 Corinthians 15:1-6).

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.


Thessalonians 4: 13-181

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Believe on Hold on Put Your Trust In Have Faith In The Lord Jesus Christ And You Shall Be Saved

This is great, but you took 3 pages to “simplify” it for everyone.

And Jesus ONLY came to save us from hell? Is that the full Gospel message? If so, then 90% of the Bible is of little use; because there’s A LOT more to it than just being “saved from hell.” God’s Word goes to great lengths to describe RELATIONSHIP. God wants to have a deeper and more powerful relationship with His children….and that goes far beyond simple belief.

 

[vhusley]

You posted a Calvinistic line when you quoted Rom 9.

Sorry friend, but Romans 9 is from the Word of God not from the Word of Calvin. God’s Word stands on its own…line upon line, precept upon precept. It doesn’t need you nor I, nor Calvinism to give it merit. Paul says what he says in Romans 9. The fact that men many handle it incorrectly or deny what it says, doesn’t change the truth of God’s Word.

 

[KingJ]

So, let's try this again. I will give you another chance to see if you can truly grasp what I am attempting to show and to see if you are able to respond without getting your hackles up and screaming "heresy!"

Any anti-OSAS belief is heresy, but sure, I will give you the time of day to show me your heart.

I actually fully agree with that definition. So, if you have already BEEN (fully) saved (past tense), then according to your understanding and the definition you just gave......this means you have already stood before God and faced the "punishment of your sin" and He has already spared you from it?

Correct.

So again, I ask you....Have you already stood before God's judgement? Is repentance a one-time deal or is it granted to us as an ongoing process to take place as long as we are living? What did the Apostle Paul mean we he said, "I die DAILY...."?

One time. When Paul says 'die daily', he was referring to a ''separate'' matter. Namely, the transforming of our minds and will to the will of God. Perfection to perfection.

Was there a point in anything that I posted where I suggested that God only accepts repentance temporarily?

Anti-OSAS is the definition of that...?

Is it possible that we could turn your statement around and suggest that "it is God who grants us repentance and it is beholden to us to accept it and walk in it daily?" Could it be that WE at some point in our relationship with God could develop an unrepentant heart....even after initial repentance? Could that be what God's Word is referring to in so many places when it refers to man's heart being "hardened"?

No. People harden their hearts to true repentance of their sin.

God is not a fool that washes a demon clean with the blood of Jesus. This is where you are getting stuck. You are making God out to be a human.

God judges the heart of the repentant at a depth of intent that nobody except Him can Jer 17:9-10.

When God forgives, He doesn't just ''forgive temporarily until the next sin''. He washes us with the blood of Jesus, grafts us into His family / adopts us as His children, writes our names in the Lamb's book of life.

You need to understand, when God removed the devil and the fallen angels, He did not make a ''mistake''. The devil has never wanted to repent and go back. God knew they were sold out to sin. Sin was full measure. Only God can make this decision. We see it frustrated the Hebrews when God would not destroy the Amorites until their sin was full measure Gen 15:16.

Just as God did not make a mistake removing demons from heaven, LIKEWISE, God does not make the mistake of grafting a demon into His family in heaven.

Is anything WE can do or offer really "good enough" for God? Isn't our righteousness "as filthy rags" before Him? Isn't it ONLY by the grace and mercy of God that He grants us repentance and thereby gives us access to the Cross? Aren't we expected to "take up our cross daily" and "die daily" to the flesh and to sin and to the temptations of the world if we truly belong to Him?

In the OT, all who repented of their sins went to Abraham's bosom. A place within Hades. So, do not make the 'error' of thinking there is nothing good we can do.

Unless ''we'' repent truthfully, we are not saved. The blood of Jesus washes us clean and takes us from Abraham's bosom in the OT to heaven. In the NT there is obviously no need for Abraham's bosom as we are post the cross.

The context of our righeousness being filthy rags is that nothing we can do can take us from Abraham's bosom to heaven.

And finally, aren't you creating a false dichotomy here when you are equating a single decision from the (wicked) heart of a man to Jesus' act of sacrifice on the cross?

Absolutely not.

You need to understand Rev 2:10. Those that die in the tribulation get their eternal crown. Those that don't, don't. In the tribulation, it does not matter how much you repent, how much faith you have, the only action God approves of is your martyrdom.

We need to learn from this. What should be crystal clear is the fact that a single action from a depth of intent is all God wants.

This is why I compare it to the death of Jesus. We know God loves us because He died for us. God knows we love Him because we die for Him / in the case of those who truly repent, He knows we will be able to lay our lives down for Him.

As, laying your life down is the greatest sign of love John 15:13.

The focus needs to be on a moment of sincere repentance. Jer 17:9-10 makes it clear that God judges the heart on this. Jesus comes in only when we truly open the door to Him Rev 3:20. He is not a fool.

You can repent 1000 times and not one of them can be at a depth of intent that God is looking for. That was Paul's concern with the church. This is why there are so many scriptures from him urging us to judge ourselves properly and ensure we are in the fold. We can think we are saved and not be saved. This is why we can look at our works and ask the question repeatedly. But this does not mean OSAS is not true. An anti-OSAS belief is an attack on God, not man,

 

[KingJ]

Sorry friend, but Romans 9 is from the Word of God not from the Word of Calvin. God’s Word stands on its own…line upon line, precept upon precept. It doesn’t need you nor I, nor Calvinism to give it merit. Paul says what he says in Romans 9. The fact that men many handle it incorrectly or deny what it says, doesn’t change the truth of God’s Word.

Go throw yourself off a cliff, angels will catch you. The bible says this.

Isolating Rom 9 from the rest of scripture is teaching a half truth as the devil did to Jesus in the wilderness.

 

[KingJ]

Is this biblical?

It is what God did for us.

Are you certain? Will those who "endure to the end" during the Great Tribulation have the Holy Ghost present here on Earth? Are these of whom Jesus speaks (in Matthew) and of whom John the Revelator speaks (in Revelation) being saved the same way? Will the Spirit be present on Earth to indwell them, guard them, and guide them? Or at some point, will the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit be removed?

Read the scripture I gave you.

It says, they will endure ten days of torment and then be put to death. Those who endure to death will get their crown.

Are we having a civil discussion? Is this language one would typically use in a civil discussion?

Any anti-OSAS belief is heretical. It makes weak Christians stumble and paints God as a wicked fool to the lost.

 

[KingJ]

Will the Spirit be present on Earth to indwell them, guard them, and guide them? Or at some point, will the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit be removed?

In the tribulation, there will be no Holy Spirit.

But don't make the mistake of thinking the Holy Spirit is needed for salvation.

All that was needed to get one to Abraham's bosom was sincere repentance of sin Psalm 51:17.

All that is needed to get those who sincerely repent to heaven is the blood of Jesus Heb 10:14.

The Holy Spirit is our helper. Teaching we need Him to help us repent is ....heresy.

Repentance / following Jesus NT is not a trivial matter. Consider this verse from Jesus:

Matt 16:24 If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Any true Christian today should be able to be a martyr for Jesus. Denying ourselves is Christianity 101.

The problem is that most Christians are not Christians. That is why there are so many anti-OSAS believers. I just pray that you and others who believe this grasp the wickedness it implies.

You also need to be a little careful. Teaching we can do nothing good of ourselves can touch on Calvinism. Many believe the Holy Spirit is needed to convict us of sin for initial repentance and unless that happens nobody can be saved. That is utter trash. The Holy Spirit does convict us of sin, but unto righteousness. Makes us a better Christian.

Our true repentance + Jesus = Christian.

 

[Johann]

In the tribulation, there will be no Holy Spirit.

But don't make the mistake of thinking the Holy Spirit is needed for salvation.

All that is needed to get on to Abraham's bosom was sincere repentance of sin Psalm 51:17.

All that is needed to get those who sincerely repent to heaven is the blood of Jesus Heb 10:14.

The Holy Spirit is our helper. Teaching we need Him to help us repent is ....heresy.

Guess you are the only one that epignosis the whole boule and thelema of YHVH, and if even one on this forum disagrees with you, it is "heresy" or "reportable"
Ever pondered that you might be promulgating heresy with worldly sophistry?
You seem very combative.
Take a deep breath
Yes?

But don't make the mistake of thinking the Holy Spirit is needed for salvation.

No?
Now this is what I would call blasphemy.
Who is the Ruach HaKodesh?
This is reportable, for sure.

 

[vhusley]

It is because they don't see the Perfect Tense in the Koine Greek, and this debate is going on for hundreds of years.
Shalom
Johann

Aside from the tense of this word….there are tons of contextual problems with the doctrines of “instant sanctification” and “eternal security” as well. Those two beliefs seem to contradict much of what the Apostles taught and wrote concerning salvation. From Peter through James and Paul….they all seem to point to salvation being an ongoing process. The patterns in how they taught about it all seem to point to the idea that sanctification is not just “something extra”…..that it is absolutely a NECESSARY part of being saved, “seeing the Lord,” “entering the Kingdom of Heaven,” and however else the Bible words it. A overwhelming amount of scrip also points to the fact that this process of being sanctifies and thus saved, IS indeed ongoing (“die daily,” “take up your cross daily,” etc) as long as we live.

In translating the NT Greek texts, we also find the Greek root word for salvation, “soteria” being used in 3 distinct WAYS. 12% of its NT usage refers to physical healing, 62% refers to deliverance from sin or death IN THIS LIFE (presently), and only 26% of the time is it used in the eternal life message.

 

[vhusley]

It is what God did for us.



Read the scripture I gave you.

It says, they will endure ten days of torment and then be put to death. Those who endure to death will get their crown.



Any anti-OSAS belief is heretical. It makes weak Christians stumble and paints God as a wicked fool to the lost.

We’re getting no where. But I will end with one final question. You’ve referenced the passage in Jeremiah twice now. I’m curious….when it comes to ETERNAL SALVATION, do believe that God judges us the same way today as He did before Jesus paid the price for sin on the cross? Was Jeremiah talking about God’s final judgment of sinners here?

 

[KingJ]

Guess you are the only one that epignosis the whole boule and thelema of YHVH, and if even one on this forum disagrees with you, it is "heresy" or "reportable"
Ever pondered that you might be promulgating heresy with worldly sophistry?
You seem very combative.
Take a deep breath
Yes?

Heresy is defined as a belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.

Teaching God is a wicked fool is the definition of that. The bible teaches us that God is not a fool, not wicked and certainly not a wicked fool.

If I were you, I would try and understand why someone who loves and serves Jesus is calling my personal belief heretical.

No?
Now this is what I would call blasphemy.
Who is the Ruach HaKodesh?
This is reportable, for sure.

Who did the Holy Spirit ascend on at the day of Pentecost?

Christians went into the house and came out Holy Spirit filled Christians.

Teaching we need the Holy Spirit to repent of sins implies 1. All before the Holy Spirit could not repent and 2. God cherry picks those He gives the Holy Spirit to.

The first belief is nonsensical, the second touches on Calvinism and is heretical.

I am dying to hear you quote a scripture to support your statement. Go for it, the floor is yours.

 

[vhusley]

In the tribulation, there will be no Holy Spirit.

But don't make the mistake of thinking the Holy Spirit is needed for salvation.

All that was needed to get one to Abraham's bosom was sincere repentance of sin Psalm 51:17.

All that is needed to get those who sincerely repent to heaven is the blood of Jesus Heb 10:14.

The Holy Spirit is our helper. Teaching we need Him to help us repent is ....heresy.

Repentance / following Jesus NT is not a trivial matter. Consider this verse from Jesus:

Matt 16:24 If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Any true Christian today should be able to be a martyr for Jesus. Denying ourselves is Christianity 101.

The problem is that most Christians are not Christians. That is why there are so many anti-OSAS believers. I just pray that you and others who believe this grasp the wickedness it implies.

You also need to be a little careful. Teaching we can do nothing good of ourselves can touch on Calvinism. Many believe the Holy Spirit is needed to convict us of sin for initial repentance and unless that happens nobody can be saved. That is utter trash. The Holy Spirit does convict us of sin, but unto righteousness. Makes us a better Christian.

Our true repentance + Jesus = Christian.

The Holy Spirit in not needed for salvation? Wow.
Okay. I suppose this is where I must simply kick the dust from my sandals and move on.
Be blessed my friend.

 

[KingJ]

We’re getting no where.

Seriously, I type all that and you can't reply?

But I will end with one final question. You’ve referenced the passage in Jeremiah twice now. I’m curious….when it comes to ETERNAL SALVATION, do believe that God judges us the same way today as He did before Jesus paid the price for sin on the cross? Was Jeremiah talking about God’s final judgment of sinners here?

Not unless human DNA has changed from OT to NT? Has it?

It does not matter what Jeremiah was talking about. The fact is that this was said of God. You are really grabbing at a straw.

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

 

[vhusley]

Heresy is defined as a belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.

Teaching God is a wicked fool is the definition of that. The bible teaches us that God is not a fool, not wicked and certainly not a wicked fool.

If I were you, I would try and understand why someone who loves and serves Jesus is calling my personal belief heretical.



Who did the Holy Spirit ascend on at the day of Pentecost?

Christians went into the house and came out Holy Spirit filled Christians.

Teaching we need the Holy Spirit to repent of sins implies 1. All before the Holy Spirit could not repent and 2. God cherry picks those He gives the Holy Spirit to.

The first belief is nonsensical, the second touches on Calvinism and is heretical.

I am dying to hear you quote a scripture to support your statement. Go for it, the floor is yours.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Jesus speaking to Nicodemus - John 3:5