Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED? YES and NO!

:D Seriously, I type all that and you can't reply?



Not unless human DNA has changed from OT to NT? Has it?

It does not matter what Jeremiah was talking about. The fact is that this was said of God. You are really grabbing at a straw.

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
How and when we are going to be judged to determine our place in eternity does matter….to me anyway.
 
Aside from the tense of this word….there are tons of contextual problems with the doctrines of “instant sanctification” and “eternal security” as well.
I see, There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on...and on...and on...no wonder the simplicity of the gospel is "drowned"
under preconceived ideologies and sophistry.
I mean, here's me, a Christian, a follower of the derech, assuming you are a follower too, of Yeshua HaMashiach, quoting scriptures to each other, to be edified, but there is continual strife?

What are the tons of contextual problems of "instant sanctification" "justification" "eternal security?"

Do you see where I am coming from @vhusley ?
 
I see, There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on...and on...and on...no wonder the simplicity of the gospel is "drowned"
under preconceived ideologies and sophistry.
I mean, here's me, a Christian, a follower of the derech, assuming you are a follower too, of Yeshua HaMashiach, quoting scriptures to each other, to be edified, but there is continual strife?

What are the tons of contextual problems of "instant sanctification" "justification" "eternal security?"

Do you see where I am coming from @vhusley ?
Fair enough. I am about to begin work. I will give you a sincere response a bit later if I have time during my break.
Be blessed my friend!
 
Heresy is defined as a belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.

Teaching God is a wicked fool is the definition of that. The bible teaches us that God is not a fool, not wicked and certainly not a wicked fool.

If I were you, I would try and understand why someone who loves and serves Jesus is calling my personal belief heretical.



Who did the Holy Spirit ascend on at the day of Pentecost?

Christians went into the house and came out Holy Spirit filled Christians.

Teaching we need the Holy Spirit to repent of sins implies 1. All before the Holy Spirit could not repent and 2. God cherry picks those He gives the Holy Spirit to.

The first belief is nonsensical, the second touches on Calvinism and is heretical.

I am dying to hear you quote a scripture to support your statement. Go for it, the floor is yours.
What is your personal belief/denomination?
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
Eph 4:32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.


Question

In the OT, how did the Holy Spirit "worked" with the saints?
 
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Jesus speaking to Nicodemus - John 3:5

The Holy Spirit in not needed for salvation? Wow.

This verse refers to being born again.

Born of water is a reference to how we are babies in water when first born. The Spirit is best referenced to our 'hearts' that are re-birthed. We become new creations 2 Cor 5:17, body and spirit.

Paul does tell us that nobody can call Jesus Lord without a revelation from the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12:3. So I can accept the confusion. What you need to grasp is that Peter got a revelation from God in Matt 16:16-17. When Jesus went to Hades he emptied Abraham's bosom. All those that went to heaven there would be Christians.

The Holy spirit reveals Jesus to us. Thus I say Jesus + Repentance = Christian.

John 16:14-15 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Very important to grasp that the Holy Spirit does not reveal Himself to us, but Jesus.

It is semantics from my side.

Unless you proposing Holy Spirit + Repentance = Christian, that would be heresy. Is that what you are implying?

One more thing, my context for saying 'the Holy Spirit was not needed' is clearly on how many claim He is needed to make us repent of our sin. You missread, cherry picked and jumped on 'heresy' :D.

Okay. I suppose this is where I must simply kick the dust from my sandals and move on.

Says the one who is not defending their position on their heretical belief...Post 31-33
 
Last edited:
What is your personal belief/denomination?
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
Eph 4:32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.


Question

In the OT, how did the Holy Spirit "worked" with the saints?

No verse here says we need the Holy Spirit to repent of sins.

Which verse here do you want me to reply to?

What is your personal belief/denomination?

I am a Christian. I just happen to be one that passed English reading and grammar on higher grade.
 
No verse here says we need the Holy Spirit to repent of sins. Please try again.

Which verse here do you want me to reply to?



I am a Christian. I just happen to be one that passed English reading and grammar on higher grade.
The Work of the Holy Spirit
Joh 16:4 But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you. “I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you.
Joh 16:5 But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’
Joh 16:6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Joh 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
Joh 16:10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;
Joh 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
And he (kai ekeinos). Emphatic demonstrative masculine pronoun.
When he is come (elthōn). Second aorist active participle of erchomai, “having come” or “coming.”
Will convict the world (elegxei ton kosmon). Future active of elegchō, old word for confuting, convicting by proof already in Joh_3:29; Joh_8:46. Jesus had been doing this (Joh_7:7), but this is pre-eminently the work of the Holy Spirit and the most needed task today for our complacent age.
In respect of sin (peri hamartias). Concerning the reality of sin as missing the mark and as wronging God and man, and not a mere slip or animal instinct or devoid of moral responsibility or evil. Some scientists and psychologists (Freudians and behaviourists) seem bent on destroying man’s sense of sin. Hence crime waves even in youth.
And of righteousness (kai peri dikaiosunēs). The opposite of “sin” and to be yearned for after conviction. Cf. Rom 1:19-3:21 about the necessity of the God-kind of righteousness and the Sermon on the Mount for Christ’s idea of righteousness.
And of judgment (kai peri kriseōs). As certain to come as condemnation because of sin and the lack of righteousness. These are not played out motives in human life, but basal. For this ministry we have the help of the Paraclete. The Paraclete is here spoken of “not as man’s advocate with God (1Jn_2:1), but as Christ’s advocate with the world” (Bernard).
Robertson.

You are in error friend, we need the Holy Spirit in ALL SPHERES of our lives, including the conviction of daily confessions of our misdeeds, dia/via the Holy Spirit.


NEW MAN
(1) The Believer as a
Psa_40:3; Eze_11:19; Rom_6:4; Rom_7:6; 2Co_5:17; Gal_6:15
Eph_2:15; Eph_4:24; Col_3:10
--SEE Conversion, CONVERSION
& CONVERSION
(2) Raised from Spiritual Death
Eze_37:10; Luk_15:24; Rom_8:11; Rom_11:15; Eph_2:1; Eph_2:6; Col_2:13; Col_3:1
--SEE Spiritual Quickening, AWAKENINGS
Regeneration, LIFE
(3) Strengthened and Renewed by the Holy Spirit
Psa_51:10; Isa_40:31; Isa_41:1; Rom_12:2; 2Co_4:16
Eph_4:23; Col_3:10; Tit_3:5
--SEE Renewed Heart, HEART, THE HUMAN
Regeneration, LIFE
Spiritual Quickening, AWAKENINGS
Conversion, CONVERSION
& CONVERSION
Pardon, SALVATION
Spiritual Cleansing, CLEANSING
(4) Called by a New Name
Isa_56:5; Isa_62:2; Isa_65:15; Act_11:26; Rev_3:12
(5) A New Song upon the lips
Psa_33:3; Psa_40:3; Psa_96:1; Psa_98:1; Psa_144:9; Psa_149:1; Isa_42:10
Rev_5:9; Rev_14:3; Rev_15:3


HOLY SPIRIT
(Select Readings,)
Joh_14:16-26; Act_2:1-47; Rom_8:1-39
(For alphabetical arrangement See Index)
(1) General Work
Zec_4:6; Mat_12:28; Joh_15:26; Joh_16:8; Rom_8:11; Rom_8:26; 2Co_3:6
1Pe_3:18; 2Pe_1:21; Rev_22:17
(2) Dwelling in Believers
Eze_36:27; Joh_14:17; Rom_8:9; 1Co_3:16; 1Co_6:19; 2Ti_1:14
1Jo_2:27
--SEE Spirit Filled, FULNESS
Spiritual Fulness, FULNESS
Indwelling Christ, TEMPLES, SPIRITUAL
(3) Outpouring of, Promised
Isa_32:15; Isa_59:21; Eze_39:29
Upon Young and Old
Joe_2:28; Zec_12:10
Christ the Giver of
Mat_3:11
Bestowed in Answer to Prayer
Luk_11:13
Through Waiting upon God
Luk_24:49; Joh_7:39; Joh_14:16; Joh_16:7
Empowers for Service
Act_1:8
Personal Cleansing Precedes
Act_2:38
--SEE Spiritual Fulness, FULNESS
(4) Examples of Men Receiving the Gift of, under the Old
Dispensation.
The Seventy Elders
Num_11:25
Balaam
Num_24:2
Othniel
Jdg_3:10
Gideon
Jdg_6:34
Samson
Jdg_14:6; Jdg_14:19
Saul
1Sa_10:10; 1Sa_11:6
David
1Sa_16:13
Saul's Messengers
1Sa_19:20; 2Ch_15:1; Luk_2:25
--SEE Spiritual Power, POWER
(5) Believers in the Early Church Baptized with
Simeon
Luk_2:25
Believers at Pentecost
Act_2:3
The Samaritan Christians
Act_8:17
Cornelius and his Company
Act_10:44
The Ephesian Believers
Act_19:6; Act_19:7; 1Co_12:13; 1Jo_2:20
--SEE Spiritual Power, POWER
(7) Bearing Witness to the Spiritual Adoption of Believers
Rom_8:16; Gal_4:6; 1Jo_3:24; 1Jo_4:13; 1Jo_5:6
--SEE Spiritual Adoption, CHURCH, THE
Assurance, ASSURANCE
(8) As Teacher
Neh_9:20; Luk_12:12; Joh_14:26; 1Co_2:13; 1Jo_2:27
--SEE Guidance Promised, GUIDANCE
(9) The Sin Against
Isa_63:10; Mat_12:31; Mar_3:29; Act_5:3; Act_7:51; Eph_4:30
1Th_5:19; Heb_10:29; 1Jo_5:16
--SEE Despisers, DESPISERS
Stubbornness, SELF-WILL
& SELF-WILL
(10) Withdrawal of
Gen_6:3; 1Sa_16:14; Psa_51:11
--SEE God's Face Hidden, ESTRANGEMENT
Reprobation, ISRAEL-THE JEWS
Wicked Rejected, WICKED
(11) Christ Baptized with
Isa_11:2; Isa_42:1; Isa_61:1; Mat_3:16; Joh_1:32; Act_10:38
(12) The Leadership of
Guides into All Truth
Joh_16:13; Act_8:39
Controls the Movements of Believers
Act_10:19; Act_10:20
Directs in the Selection of Christian Leaders
Act_13:2
Chooses the Fields of Operation
Act_16:6
Obedience to, a Mark of Sonship
Rom_8:14; Gal_5:18
--SEE Guidance, GUIDANCE
(13) Giveth Life
Joh_6:63; Rom_8:11; 2Co_3:6; 1Pe_3:18
(14) Called "Spirit of Truth"
Joh_14:17; Joh_15:26; Joh_16:13; 1Jo_4:6
(15) Called the Comforter, (Greek, Parakletos)
Abides forever
Joh_14:16
Brings to remembrance Christ's words
Joh_14:26
Testifies concerning Christ
Joh_15:26
Convicts the world of sin
Joh_16:7; Joh_16:8
Guides into all truth
Joh_16:13


I choose to seek after aleithia, for these are perilous times we live in, and false doctrines abounds.
I don't claim to "know it all" but what I do know, I'll gladly share with those seeking the truth only to be found in Scriptures and grow therein and in Christ Jesus.

See the morphology on "I died" and "I die daily"...in context.

God bless
Johann
 
You are in error friend, we need the Holy Spirit in ALL SPHERES of our lives, including the conviction of daily confessions of our misdeeds, dia/via the Holy Spirit.

Please don't forget the original statements.

I specifically said we don't need the Holy Spirit for first repentance. Many in the OT repented just fine without. No reason us in the NT can't do the same and we know that God shows no partiality Acts 10:34.

Which verse here speaks to that?

You are overly reading into my statement. Not grasping the point made.

Please read my post 45 to Vhusley.
 
Says the one who is not defending their position on their heretical belief...Post 31-33
You are very aggressive
If someone does not "believe" as you do, he/she is an "heretic"
You are in error here @KingJ re the Ruach HaKodesh, and I have shown you your error.
Shalom
Johann.
 
Please don't forget the original statements.

I specifically said we don't need the Holy Spirit for first repentance. Many in the OT repented just fine without. No reason us in the NT can't do the same and we know that God shows no partiality Acts 10:34.

Which verse here speaks to that?

You are overly reading into my statement. Not grasping the point made.

Please read my post 45 to Vhusley.
Again, you are in error, fully grasping your "points"
 
How and when we are going to be judged to determine our place in eternity does matter….to me anyway.

It should. The Christian message is repent and be saved.

Your message is repent and not be saved.
 
Again, you are in error, fully grasping your "points"

Well if you are not going to defend your position,I can only assume you believe Holy Spirit + repentance = Christian and everyone OT and at the time of Jesus will be in hell. That would be real heresy.
 
Well if you are not going to defend your position,I can only assume you believe Holy Spirit + repentance = Christian and everyone OT and at the time of Jesus will be in hell. That would be real heresy.
Already given you the scriptures and answered your question, not looking up the scripture references friend.
Don't "assume" on what I believe.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Good advice, from scriptures.

Johann
 
Already given you the scriptures and answered your question, not looking up the scripture references friend.
Don't "assume" on what I believe.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Good advice, from scriptures.

Johann

Johann, please re-read the thread. I said the Holy Spirit is not needed to make us first repent. You and Vhusley jumped on me for that.

Neither of you two have defended yourselves.

I have told you that if you teach one cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit making them repent, then God cherry picks people for heaven / Calvinism and God would be wicked / Utter heresy.

All humans can repent just fine on their own. We do not need the Holy Spirit to make us repent of our sins.

The Holy Spirit does help us once we have, He makes us more aware of what upsets God and we repent a lot more as a result. Once we are a Christian.
 
All humans can repent just fine on their own. We do not need the Holy Spirit to make us repent of our sins.
Fourth time now, you are in error.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
No man. Joh_6:65, Joh_5:44; Joh_8:43; Joh_10:26; *Joh_12:37-40, Pro_5:22, Isa_44:18-20, Jer_13:23, Mat_12:34; Mat_13:10-17, Luk_10:22, Rom_8:7-8, 1Co_2:14, 2Co_3:5, Eph_2:8.
can come. or, is able to come (Young). +Joh_6:35; **Joh_6:37; **Joh_6:45; Joh_6:47, %Joh_5:40, Job_14:4, +**Isa_55:3, *Jer_13:23; Jer_31:19, Mat_13:11, Luk_6:47, Rom_11:35-36, **1Co_2:14; *1Co_4:7, 2Co_3:5.
except. or, if (Young). FS184C, +Mat_4:9, Joh_6:45; Joh_6:65, *Joh_3:3-7; *Joh_10:26, Psa_10:17, Pro_16:1, Mat_11:25-27; *Mat_16:17; Mat_18:3, Mar_16:16 note. Act_11:18; Act_15:11; **Act_16:14, *2Co_4:6, *Eph_2:4-10, *Php_1:29, *Col_2:12; *Col_2:13, 1Th_4:9, 2Ti_2:10, Tit_3:3-5, *Jas_1:18, 1Jn_2:3.
the Father. Joh_4:23; Joh_5:19, Mat_16:17, Rom_11:36, Eph_1:17-18.
which hath sent me. Joh_6:38, +Joh_4:34; Joh_7:16.
draw. or, may draw. Aorist tense, active voice, subjunctive mood, third person singular verb. Logically, Calvinism cannot base absolute sovereignty and absolute predestination or the doctrine of irresistible grace upon (or in the face of) the "may" of the subjunctive mood in the probable future third class condition here and in verse 65 (Joh_6:65), That would be an absolute contradiction in terms. "May" expresses contingency; the "third class condition" expresses probability, but not certainty, because of the contingency. The "third class condition" asserts that if a specified condition is met, a certain result will follow. Thus, the Calvinistic position is proven absolutely untenable according to the grammar of Scripture. The terms of the contingency are expressed in Joh_6:37 and Joh_6:40, and include continuing belief. Gr. ελκυση (S# G1670: Joh_12:32; Joh_18:10; Joh_21:6; Joh_21:11; Act_16:19; Act_21:30; Jas_2:6). **Joh_6:65, Joh_4:23; *Joh_12:32, Gen_19:16, Psa_25:8, *Son_1:4, Jer_31:3, Hos_2:14; Hos_11:4, Rom_8:14.
and I. +Joh_6:39; +Joh_6:40.
raise. FS8, +Psa_118:1, +**Joh_5:29; Joh_11:25, +**Luk_14:14, +Act_2:30, 2Ti_1:12.
at the last day. +Joh_6:54 note. Joh_11:24.
Except the Father draw him (ean mē helkusēi auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mē and first aorist active subjunctive of helkuō, older form helkō, to drag like a net (Joh_21:6), or sword (Joh_18:10), or men (Act_16:19), to draw by moral power (Joh_12:32), as in Jer_31:3. Surō, the other word to drag (Act_8:3; Act_14:19) is not used of Christ’s drawing power. The same point is repeated in Joh_6:65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of Joh_6:37. See Rom_8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudeis dunatai here.

Contrary of what you are saying, I am answering your questions, just not in the way and manner you would expect.

Remember....

Gal 1:6 I am astonished and extremely irritated that you are so quickly shifting your allegiance and deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different [even contrary] gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is really not another [gospel]; but there are [obviously] some [people masquerading as teachers] who are disturbing and confusing you [with a misleading, counterfeit teaching] and want to distort the gospel of Christ [twisting it into something which it absolutely is not].
Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we [originally] preached to you, let him be condemned to destruction!
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I now say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from that which you received [from us], let him be condemned to destruction!
Gal 1:10 Am I now trying to win the favor and approval of men, or of God? Or am I seeking to please someone? If I were still trying to be popular with men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
AMP

Shalom
Johann, do look up the scripture references and remain teachable.
 
Please don't forget the original statements.

I specifically said we don't need the Holy Spirit for first repentance. Many in the OT repented just fine without. No reason us in the NT can't do the same and we know that God shows no partiality Acts 10:34.

Which verse here speaks to that?

You are overly reading into my statement. Not grasping the point made.

Please read my post 45 to Vhusley.
Earlier you specifically said that the Holy Spirit was not needed for salvation. You are digging yourself a hole my friend.
 
All humans can repent just fine on their own. We do not need the Holy Spirit to make us repent of our sins.
You are sadly in error here friend and are attempting to elevate man’s “authority” above God’s. Only God may grant us repentance. We do t get to make the rules. God, through His grace and mercy calls us, then ALLOWS us to come to Him with repentant hearts. We are not fully capable of true repentance on our own.

“The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.” - 2 Timothy 2:24-26
 
You are sadly in error here friend and are attempting to elevate man’s “authority” above God’s. Only God may grant us repentance. We do t get to make the rules. God, through His grace and mercy calls us, then ALLOWS us to come to Him with repentant hearts. We are not fully capable of true repentance on our own.

“The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.” - 2 Timothy 2:24-26

I am just shocked that you don't understand the evil of God cherry picking people for heaven. If you believe one can only truly repent if the Holy Spirit helps them too, you believe God is partial and pre-selects a few chosen for eternal bliss.

IE Calvinism. IE Heresy.

As to your desperate straw you have grabbed, 2 Tim 2:24-26. Please go and do a proper study on it.

The context is 'so called' Christians in church that are false teachers. Will God re-open their hearts to Him and repentance.

There is a warning in many verses in the NT to those who have ''touched and tasted'' of Jesus. The theory is that these people can be inoculated against the truth as they have had an opportunity and rejected Jesus.

Read Heb 10:29, 1 Cor 5 whole chapter.

Earlier you specifically said that the Holy Spirit was not needed for salvation. You are digging yourself a hole my friend.

Did you not read my post 45?

You are sounding like a sour person so eager to fire some shots back at someone who has exposed their belief as heresy. Accept correction my friend and move on. Your belief is 100% heretical.

You are teaching the lost that God is evil. I fear being you on judgement day.
 
Fourth time now, you are in error.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

One can interpret a verse like this one of two ways.

1. The correct way.

Those who repent sincerely as Psalm 51:17 teaches, will be called / drawn to Him and forgiven.

2. The incorrect way

God chooses a few to call and forgive.

You are espousing the latter, which is outright heresy. You are reading all the verses you are finding with your heretical glasses on.
 
Back
Top